Guns in America

[Nick]

Really?! Then accept my challenge write it down! Lemme SEE IT. Talk is cheap as they say. You know darned well no such law can be written. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.




Oh, NICE TRY, Grasshopper!!!!!!!! That's N-O-T what the 2nd Amend says and you KNOW IT!! It SAYS: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of >THE PEOPLE< (NOT the right of MILITIA MEMEBERS!!!) to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." BIGGGGG DIFFERENCE in meaning, yes? YES.

BTW, our Supreme Court laid that "militia" straw man in its grave a few years back...just so you know...

Larry I haven't got the time or will to respond to all of your points

However three points I will respond to :-

If you just calmed down for a bit you would have realised, that my changing of the 2nd amendment's was my response to your challenge to write a law that couldn't be written.

As suspected your response was that's not what the 2nd amendment says, which in some ways is reassuring as you are correct a few new words do and in my opinion would make a big difference, that is the whole point, no use writing a new law that makes no difference, thank you for that admission.

'Sorry, Nick, I tried...truly...I DID. But I just couldn't wade thru all those gun stats. Knowing as I do how manipulated they are over here, I've grown to just ignore them 'in toto' (or 'en toto' if you prefer). You know the old adage; "There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." A former PM of yours (Disraeli) said that, you know.

...

Somewhat ironic seeing that this thread was started with a bunch of statistics in favor of guns that you had no problems with, and indeed you often use statistics to back up your arguments.

Seriously Larry if you adopt the confirmation biases method, it will most likely contribute to overconfidence in your personal beliefs even in the face of contrary evidence.

Uh...Nick? 'Sorry to shoot holes in your narrative (no pun intended)...but, guns WERE NOT ALLOWED at that venue.

I never mentioned in the venue, this is what I was referring to

The lead guitarist of a country music band playing Route 91 Harvest festival, where a gunman murdered 58 people on Sunday night, has said the horrific experience of the attack has changed his views on gun laws in America.

“I’ve been a proponent of the [second] amendment my entire life,” Caleb Keeter posted on Twitter. “Until the events of last night. I cannot express how wrong I was.”But Keeter went further, describing the deadliest shooting in modern US history as a revelation. He said that members of the band’s crew have concealed handgun licenses, and legal firearms on the bus.

“They were useless,” he said. “We couldn’t touch them for fear police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us.

As I said Larry none of my business good luck.

 

[Larry L.]

Larry I haven't got the time or will to respond to all of your points

I then choose to reciprocate in kind.

 

[Howard Jones]

IF and I agree it is quite a big if, someone really wanted to get guns banded, especially AR15 type guns what would he do.

Well if he was committed enough, and that is another very big if. He could elect to do the following.

Buy a huge number of guns of all types but especially black semi automatic rifles, a huge amount of ammo, spread all his guns around his homes, maybe even modifiy a couple of AR15 to shoot like a full auto and then:

Get a room high up above a large target (in this case country music fans) and just make as much mayhem as long as possible.

Country fans? Natural opponents of his agenda.

Cheap auto conversion? Much easier to get than a real select fire version. In reality a M16 is almost impossible to buy legally. Especially for a person who does not want to be thwarted in his plans by a very complete background check.

So many guns? I would not think he even shot most of them. Then why so many? Because ALL THOSE GUNS is a big piece of the news ......isn't it.

Damn near on TV wasn't it. No better way to disseminate propaganda.

Died for the cause? Yes he did.

I'm just sayin.

Nick, I respect your intelligent thoughts. I have to say I disagreed with the balance of them but I bet we would enjoy a beer and the discussion.

 

[Nick]

Nick, I respect your intelligent thoughts. I have to say I disagreed with the balance of it but I bet we would enjoy a beer and the discussion.

Absolutely, although having grown up in the West Country mine's a cider please, to be honest after talking cars there probably wouldn't be much time left for politics or religion

The world would be a very boring place if we were all the same, and there would be a distinct shortage of GT40's

 

[John]

Another interesting fact just came to light, after the tragedy that happened, the FBI went through the perps history with a fine toothed comb and came up with nothing out of the ordinary, other than he was a gambler, but now it seems some hooker has come forward with a tale of all sorts of sordid things the poor bugger was supposed to have done, and who wouldn't trust the word of a hooker.
this whole event is smelling worse every day,
cheers John

 

[Jeff Young]

IF and I agree it is quite a big if, someone really wanted to get guns banded, especially AR15 type guns what would he do.

Well if he was committed enough, and that is another very big if. He could elect to do the following.

Buy a huge number of guns of all types but especially black semi automatic rifles, a huge amount of ammo, spread all his guns around his homes, maybe even modifiy a couple of AR15 to shoot like a full auto and then:

Get a room high up above a large target (in this case country music fans) and just make as much mayhem as long as possible.

Country fans? Natural opponents of his agenda.

Cheap auto conversion? Much easier to get than a real select fire version. In reality a M16 is almost impossible to buy legally. Especially for a person who does not want to be thwarted in his plans by a very complete background check.

So many guns? I would not think he even shot most of them. Then why so many? Because ALL THOSE GUNS is a big piece of the news ......isn't it.

Damn near on TV wasn't it. No better way to disseminate propaganda.

Died for the cause? Yes he did.

I'm just sayin.

Nick, I respect your intelligent thoughts. I have to say I disagreed with the balance of them but I bet we would enjoy a beer and the discussion.

You are "just sayin' really fucking offensive stuff -- basically that an American, or maybe some element of the Left you hate so much -- was behind this.

Do you believe Sandy Hook was a "false flag" exercise too?

That we didn't land on the Moon?

That George Bush orchestrated 9/11?

Don't start with this stuff. It's no different than when Randy and others bought hook/line/sinker the story planted by Russian intelligence that Hillary might have Parkinson's.

Hell, for all we know YOU might be a Russian bot posting here to sow dissent by claiming Americans killed Americans over gun rights.

 

[Randy V]

You are "just sayin' really fucking offensive stuff -- basically that an American, or maybe some element of the Left you hate so much -- was behind this.

Do you believe Sandy Hook was a "false flag" exercise too?

That we didn't land on the Moon?

That George Bush orchestrated 9/11?

Don't start with this stuff. It's no different than when Randy and others bought hook/line/sinker the story planted by Russian intelligence that Hillary might have Parkinson's.

Hell, for all we know YOU might be a Russian bot posting here to sow dissent by claiming Americans killed Americans over gun rights.

You sure are feeling froggy there Jeff...
Howard was merely going through an thought exercise and you lay into him, me and a bunch of others for no good reason.
First off - I merely posted a link to a story I thought was interesting and I said so. I never said that I bought the story or believed it. Again supposition and food for thought. I grant you now that in retrospect, given (RECENT) information about Russians manipulating media for their own agenda, that this particular story may well have been part of that.
But that's getting into the political area and we will cease discussion of that in this thread.

 

[John]

I found this both very informative and interesting.
Forensic acoustic proof of SECOND shooter in the Las Vegas massacre - YouTube

cheers John

 

[Nick]

You are "just sayin' really fucking offensive stuff -- basically that an American, or maybe some element of the Left you hate so much -- was behind this.

Do you believe Sandy Hook was a "false flag" exercise too?

That we didn't land on the Moon?

That George Bush orchestrated 9/11?

Don't start with this stuff. It's no different than when Randy and others bought hook/line/sinker the story planted by Russian intelligence that Hillary might have Parkinson's.

Hell, for all we know YOU might be a Russian bot posting here to sow dissent by claiming Americans killed Americans over gun rights.

Jeff,

I understand why you got upset, but Howard did stress it was a big or very big if, and I am not just saying that because he offered to have a drink with me, I'll check if he goes for a vodka

Both our children work in the UK ambulance service, they regularly deal with some very mentally disturbed people, which is one of the reasons why they and we as their parents. don’t want to have to worry if their patients or anyone else at the scene for that matter, may be carrying a handgun.

In my opinion anyone who could have committed such a heinous act must be mentally unstable so who knows what was going on in his mind. My first thought on what Howard put was however remote it is a possibility. My second thought was, also just as remotely, it could even have been a far right supporter trying to deflect attention away from Trumps constant current faux pars and knowing Trumps pro stance on the gun issue would rally support for his cause, so not that far away from Howard’s reasoning.

If it does turn out to be either of these scenarios we must remember his or possibly their actions did not represent either side in any way shape or form.

 

[Larry L.]

Jeff,

I understand why you got upset, but Howard did stress it was a big or very big if, and I am not just saying that because he offered to have a drink with me, I'll check if he goes for a vodka

Both our children work in the UK ambulance service, they regularly deal with some very mentally disturbed people, which is one of the reasons why they and we as their parents. don’t want to have to worry if their patients or anyone else at the scene for that matter, may be carrying a handgun.

In my opinion anyone who could have committed such a heinous act must be mentally unstable so who knows what was going on in his mind. My first thought on what Howard put was however remote it is a possibility. My second thought was, also just as remotely, it could even have been a far right supporter trying to deflect attention away from Trumps constant current faux pars and knowing Trumps pro stance on the gun issue would rally support for his cause, so not that far away from Howard’s reasoning.

If it does turn out to be either of these scenarios we must remember his or possibly their actions did not represent either side in any way shape or form.

From the instant it was reported that the assassin was just 'a regular guy', etc., etc., I've been wondering if perhaps he had a brain tumor? That might explain the 'hows and whys'.

Of course, it's also possible (I guess) that he had converted to Islam (as ISIS has now insisted, what, three times?) and did what he did as a product of that...but, somehow I just can't quite picture "a regular, ordinary" 64-year-old white guy (especially a WEALTHY one who supposedly had shown no interest in either religion or politics) quietly converting to RADICAL Islam and going off the deep end. That just doesn't pass the smell test from a 'behavioral profiling' standpoint.

So, absent any evidence to the contrary, the only conclusion I can draw based on what we actually know right now is that the guy had become a severe mental case. But, even that seems unlikely given the fact that, right up to his heinous act, he'd supposedly shown no outward 'symptoms' of mental illness - that is, aside from what the girlfriend reported about his nightmares or whatever was going on there.

I'm wondering if we'll ever know the whole story. Especially the motive.

 

[Doug S.]

I'm wondering if we'll ever know the whole story. Especially the motive.

I doubt it.

Doug

 

[Nick]

'.

Of course, it's also possible (I guess) that he had converted to Islam (as ISIS has now insisted, what, three times?) and did what he did as a product of that...but, somehow I just can't quite picture "a regular, ordinary" 64-year-old white guy (especially a WEALTHY one who supposedly had shown no interest in either religion or politics) quietly converting to RADICAL Islam and going off the deep end.

If it does turn out to be this scenario we must remember his or possibly their actions did not represent Islam or the teachings of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, in any way shape or form.

 

[Larry L.]

I doubt it.

Doug

No kidding.

Now, can you just imagine the nightmare posed from here on out for A-N-Y security staff covering any building anywhere that has WINDOWS?! Especially TALL buildings with a bazillion windows each? :sad:

I mean, come ON.

 

[Larry L.]

...in any way shape or form.

I was pretty much with you until ^that^ point.

In the final analysis, Islam does play a large part in it...in more ways than one...even if only in a 'bastardized' way. There's absolutely no denying that.

 

[Nick]

I was pretty much with you until ^that^ point.

In the final analysis, Islam does play a large part in it...in more ways than one...even if only in a 'bastardized' way. There's absolutely no denying that.

Don't want you to turn this into a religious debate but, seems pretty unambiguous to me.

Extracts from a letter written by the profit Muhammad.

This letter contains the oath given unto them, and he who disobeys that which is therein will be considered a disbeliever and a transgressor to that whereunto he is commanded. He will be regarded as one who has corrupted the oath of God, disbelieved His Testament, rejected His Authority, despised His Religion, and made himself deserving of His Curse, whether he is a Sultan or any other believer of Islam. Whenever Christian monks, devotees and pilgrims gather together, whether in a mountain or valley, or den, or frequented place, or plain, or church, or in houses of worship, verily we are back of them and shall protect them, and their properties and their morals, by Myself, by My Friends and by My Assistants, for they are of My Subjects and under My Protection.


No one is allowed to plunder these Christians, or destroy or spoil any of their churches, or houses of worship, or take any of the things contained within these houses and bring it to the houses of Islam. And he who takes away anything therefrom, will be one who has corrupted the oath of God, and, in truth, disobeyed His Messenger.

No one has the right to interfere with their affairs, or bring any action against them.

They shall not be imposed upon by anyone to undertake a journey, or to be forced to go to wars or to carry arms; for the Muslims have to fight for them. Do no dispute or argue with them, but deal according to the verse recorded in the Quran, to wit: ‘Do not dispute or argue with the People of the Book but in that which is best’ [29:46]. Thus they will live favored and protected from everything which may offend them by the Callers to religion (Islam), wherever they may be and in any place they may dwell.

Should any Christian woman be married to a Muslim, such marriage must not take place except after her consent, and she must not be prevented from going to her church for prayer. Their churches must be honored and they must not be withheld from building churches or repairing convents.

They must not be forced to carry arms or stones; but the Muslims must protect them and defend them against others. It is positively incumbent upon every one of the follower of Islam not to contradict or disobey this oath until the Day of Resurrection and the end of the world.

 

[Doug S.]

No kidding.

Now, can you just imagine the nightmare posed from here on out for A-N-Y security staff covering any building anywhere that has WINDOWS?! Especially TALL buildings with a bazillion windows each? :sad:

I mean, come ON.

Yep! This event has been a game-changer!!!!

Doug

 

[Jeff Young]

I understand why you got upset, but Howard did stress it was a big or very big if, and I am not just saying that because he offered to have a drink with me, I'll check if he goes for a vodka


If it does turn out to be either of these scenarios we must remember his or possibly their actions did not represent either side in any way shape or form.

Nope, sorry, not sorry. You don't accuse other Americans of being behind the worst mass shooting in history based on pure speculation.

 

[Larry L.]

Don't want YOU (?!) to turn this into a religious debate but...

I hadn't the remotest intention of doing that. 'Just referenced media reports and stated an absolutely UNDENIABLE fact: "Islam does play a large part in it...in more ways than one...EVEN IF ONLY IN A >'BASTARDIZED'< WAY". There's absolutely no denying the truth of that statement and I stand by it.

 

[Howard Jones]

Randy, Randy.........Randy. No offence taken but maybe you could try and remain calm and take a breath. If you have a theory that refutes mine the proper way to debate is to take it point by point and present your information that supports your argument. Or better yet present a fact that refutes one of my points of speculation.

Now from your outburst I see that we agree he was a American and the proper description of what I think is plausible is called a "false flag". Otherwise if the country is either left or right as you suggest then I have a 50-50 chance of being correct. Any other points we agree on?

Do I think that he is a false flag? I don't know what, who, or why he did this. BUT I don't believe he didn't know why he did it. The longer we go without a motive the more bazar the real motive will found to be.

By the way, if he had a tumor don't you think we would have had a medical examiner press conference by now. They have had his body for a week now.

Watch a few reruns of Perry Mason, you might learn something.

Remember..................polite adult discussion......................

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Randy, Randy.........Randy. No offence taken but maybe you could try and remain calm and take a breath. If you have a theory that refutes mine the proper way to debate is to take it point by point and present your information that supports your argument. Or better yet present a fact that refutes one of my points of speculation.

Now from your outburst I see that we agree he was a American and the proper description of what I think is plausible is called a "false flag". Otherwise if the country is either left or right as you suggest then I have a 50-50 chance of being correct. Any other points we agree on?

Do I think that he is a false flag? I don't know what, who, or why he did this. BUT I don't believe he didn't know why he did it. The longer we go without a motive the more bazar the real motive will found to be.

By the way, if he had a tumor don't you think we would have had a medical examiner press conference by now. They have had his body for a week now.

Watch a few reruns of Perry Mason, you might learn something.

Remember..................polite adult discussion......................

I do believe the name in the beginning is a brainfart typo No offence Randy!