How to get the correct tuning of Webers

Rune

Supporter
When I'm going to do the tuning of my Webers in the dyno, I think I will need some main jets in different sizes to be able to find the right ones. I thougth of using some old main jets and buy some drill bits and just make the hole bigger for each run until I find the right size.
But what ref.to size is the number on the main to inches or metric size on drill bit?.
I do not know if it's a idea that can be used to get close to the perfect tuning , but I find this interesting and would like to give it a try.
I have a first set up with 145 mains and 37 choke . Just to start with .
Have some of You out there tried this with or without a good results ?
Does this sound like a idea that can be done?
Here in Norway , one can not yust go in nearest shop and pick up a new set of mains.
Rune
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Start by getting a book on Webers and reading about them. The numbers on the jets and air corrector and emulsion tubes do not run in sequence. It would be good to consult someone who is familiar with them or can make recommendations based on your engine size, cam, CR, heads etc. For 289/302/351 engines, some of this info is in John Horsman's book "Racing In The Rain". They used 48IDAs exclusively, I think. You could also email Inglese (not the company, the person) and see if he is willing to make suggestions as to what to start with and what to have around to experiment with.

Also, read Chuck's (CESLAW) account of this. Linkage and sealing vacuum leaks is really crucial- they will never run right if the carbs are not opening in parallel and if you have vacuum leaks you are in for a bad time as well.
 

Rune

Supporter
Yes I know that I have to do a lot of tuning to get the Webers to work nice at idle and be absolute in paralell, but then when you want the power , I belive that it is the main jet and the choke that is the most importent parts to be able to push up to 400hp without getting to high EGT.
But I have to read lots of places to look after hints "how to". My thinking about to drill the main jet was just to be close to the right size before buying new mains.
I will make a set of chokes that I can increase as I want. I just make them out of a aluminum bar.
This is the nice part , when You do the engine tuning in a dyno with all the sensors and alarms that protect You from a disaster and lots of $$$$ due to brake down
Rune
 
I presume that you are talking about 48IDA's on an original individual runner manifold, like the Ford or the Cobra script?
First off before you even run the engine, get a camshaft designed for this setup. If you do not, the way high performance camshafts are designed, they have "overlap" built into them.

The overlap is there to help the exhaust scavenge, or push out the exhaust gases into a header, and pressure the intake manifold plenum under a four barrel carburetor to push in mixture into the cylinder.

It does this by providing overlap. Overlap being the time in engine degreess that the intake valve and exhaust valve are both open.

A normal high performance cam will have something like 72 to 75 degrees of overlap. Race cams, more.

The problem with webers is that they work on an independent runner manifold, giving every cylinder it's own carb, and have no combined plenum.

What this 72 degree overlap cam will do will be to push back through the carb and blow raw unburned fuel out of the carbs at speed.

You need a cam that has something like 26 degrees of overlap to limit this effect to a safe level. Those cams are now referred to as Weber cams.

Next, what you need to do with IDAs is determine the f/a ratio in the mains for your engine. It is more related to engine size then performance ad ons.

The ratio as I remember with a 289 is a 125f/215a on an f5 tube.

A 351 is something like 135-140f/160-165a.

I never did a 427 but I think they are 165f/130a. All these engines run best on an F5 tube and can get by very nicely on an F7.

Since this is strictly a mechanical system, you are not going to be able to tune to every rpm power range, but these jets will more then get you in the ball park.

As far as the "auxiliary chokes" go, 37mm are what is stock in a 48ida-4. That is simply because they are built for VW dunebuggies and the VW's like 37.

Gary Hall (when he was alive) was selling street Webers for Panteras with 28mmchokes (machined down from billet). I personally have run as large as 44mm in my Pantera. I have settled on 40.5mm (from billit tube) as a compromise.

Changing sizes of chokes won't drastically effect the total hp that the engine makes, just move around the rpm range where it makes the best power for your application.

Forget about getting the engine on the dyno to idle at stoiochemic, 14.6. What you are doing with this system is getting it to run the best that it can and be acceptable and that number is going to be around 12:1 all the time.

Remember this is an archaic race design that has the ability to be streetable, if you aren't too picky. Don't expect it to reinvent the wheel, because it won't and if you want it too you're dreaming and best look elesewhere.

Don't expect anything under 100mph with these things except a lot of belching, and black smoke clouds from the exhaust. Regarless of what you do they have a flat spot in the 2800-3500rpm range. Some people swear a third transition hole fixes that but if you believe any of these lies you might want to look into buying a bridge with a toll booth from that guy in the street with the trench coat hiding from the light. He'll give you a good deal.

They do pull like a freight train at over 100mph AND have throttle response through the turns unlike anything a holly carb can provide, but other then that they were meant to run flat out at LeManns and when they do they make power like a FI system does. On the bottom end, they loose quite a bit of it unfortunately.

Oh, and forget about air cleaners on them. Put screens on them to keep from swallowing small animals and mechanics that are built like jockeys and get sucked in. The engine doesn't like that.
 
For starters, buy and read this book: Amazon.com: Weber Carburetors (HP Books 774) (0075478637744): Verlon P. Braden: Books

Don't drill out the jets, just go get a nice selection. I say this because many a guy has been totally foiled trying to tune his webers when some guy who owned them before monkeyed with drilling the jets out. The guy who is trying to tune them is relying on the markings on the jet to be accurate still when, of course, they're way off. Or, alternatively, you throw those (drilled) jets into the weber box in your garage, forget you've drilled them, and then go try to use them in some other weber carb down the road and you're wonderin' why in the hell you can't get the carbs balanced.....
 
Hello Rune,
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Here in California there are a few of us in our club that run Webers. One of us was fortunate enough and put up the expense to have a fairly complete set of mains, air jets, E-tubes, idles and by-pass’ within the size range for tuning a small block ford. Terry has been gracious to lend it to tune on the condition that it is returned to him as it was received. Tune with the set, and then go buy what you need. We can even donate to the tuning set if there is a jet size or holder that is not present as payment but not mandatory. Just add a note that it was added. It’s based on the honor system as well as friendship. It’s a great way where no one person has to foot the entire bill of expensive jets and e-tubes in sets of 8 for every size.
<o:p> </o:p>
Anyone willing to try this on a global level? Trust is Key.
<o:p> </o:p>
To qualify interested parties need to communicate on a personal level and be willing to be transparent, honorable and held accountable. The concept door is open…
<o:p> </o:p>
Cheers,
~Earl J
 
Hello Rune,
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
Here in California there are a few of us in our club that run Webers. One of us was fortunate enough and put up the expense to have a fairly complete set of mains, air jets, E-tubes, idles and by-pass’ within the size range for tuning a small block ford. Terry has been gracious to lend it to tune on the condition that it is returned to him as it was received. Tune with the set, and then go buy what you need. We can even donate to the tuning set if there is a jet size or holder that is not present as payment but not mandatory. Just add a note that it was added. It’s based on the honor system as well as friendship. It’s a great way where no one person has to foot the entire bill of expensive jets and e-tubes in sets of 8 for every size.
<o:p> </o:p>
Anyone willing to try this on a global level? Trust is Key.
<o:p> </o:p>
To qualify interested parties need to communicate on a personal level and be willing to be transparent, honorable and held accountable. The concept door is open…
<o:p> </o:p>
Cheers,
~Earl J

What a great idea! It is a tremendous expense to have 8 sets of all the needed components.
 

Ron Scarboro

GT40s Supporter
Supporter
Another alternative may be to reach out to Jim Inglese (the guy, not the company). I get the feeling he has a vast repository data on various engines and the right jets/chokes for the application. I've bought a set from him for a 289 FIA Cobra and he has been extraordinarily helpful regarding cam selection, tuning and the like.
 
For starters, buy and read this book: Amazon.com: Weber Carburetors (HP Books 774) (0075478637744): Verlon P. Braden: Books

Don't drill out the jets, just go get a nice selection. I say this because many a guy has been totally foiled trying to tune his webers when some guy who owned them before monkeyed with drilling the jets out. The guy who is trying to tune them is relying on the markings on the jet to be accurate still when, of course, they're way off. Or, alternatively, you throw those (drilled) jets into the weber box in your garage, forget you've drilled them, and then go try to use them in some other weber carb down the road and you're wonderin' why in the hell you can't get the carbs balanced.....

+1 Been there, T-shirt, etc.
 
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