Introducing SPF P2160

[Seymour Snerd]

Hi all...

I've been hanging around the forum since November or so, and have even started a thread or two trying to get my head straight about GT40s.

However, my official status changed yesterday when GT40 Mk II P2160 was delivered to my house. P2160 is still a roller, and I'm now fully engaged in specifying an engine (FE, probably all aluminum, probably 454 ci, dry sump, maybe dual quads, and a ZF-Q transaxle).

Here's her first picture at home:



And here's who she came out to California with (kind of a coincidence, huh? BTW it's a roadster):



Unfortunately I missed the Kodak moment when they were both uncovered.

The tow truck driver who happened by after we'd unloaded P2160 was so entranced by the GT that he didn't notice the GT-40 in the driveway. When we pointed her out, he said "Oh, I thought that was a Pantera."

So I guess that's my first GT40 star treatment experience.

Anyway, I've been on a lot of car and technical forums since the early '90s and this one is the best so far: lots of solid knowledge generously shared, and a remarkably low level of bickering. Hopefully I can return the favor.

Alan Watkins
Encinitas, CA

 

[Mike Christian]

Congrats - let the fun begin!

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Al,

If you did not get an owners manual/wire diagram with the chassis let me know and I can email you the PDF file (larger).

Congrats,

Should be fun!

 

[Grady]

Alan,
Now I put the car, your name, and the questions about the 427FE engines together. Welcome to the Superformance family. It is early enough in the season for you to complete and drive the car this year. Keep us up to date with pictures as you make headway.
Grady

Oh, forgot to say I like Blue also.

 

[Steve C]

Alan,

Congrats.

Keep us informed as you progress. I'm especially interested in what you will do regarding the dry sump.

Steve

 

[Jack Houpe]

If you have the time to spare building your own is a experience and eye opener. Took me a good part of a year, but I know every nut, bolt, hole, and crevasse in the car. Like the other guys said welcome to the SPF family!

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Alan,
...It is early enough in the season for you to complete and drive the car this year. ....

Yes, I'm hoping to be driving by summer, although I am subject to the vagaries of the California DMV whom I will have to convince to keep me in temporary operating permits until I can get my infamous SB100 number at the New Year. The suspense will be unbearable.

My normal practice with this kind of thing is to keep a detailed journal. Being somewhat of a documentation freak (I'm an EE and program manager by trade) and in return for the generosity of this community I'm planning on writing and publishing a thorough "how to build an SPF GT40" as I go along.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Alan,
I'm especially interested in what you will do regarding the dry sump.

Steve --

One piece of good news regarding the dry sump is that John Schwartz at Aviaid has indicated he can make me a pump mount for the LHS of the FE block for not too much money. I owe him a call today to find out how much. But with the pump no longer competing for space with the AC compressor the path is looking a lot clearer.

 

[Kevin L]

and in return for the generosity of this community I'm planning on writing and publishing a thorough "how to build an SPF GT40" as I go along.

Please!

FYI, if you have not found it; some good people have put fixes in the "How To" section for the superformance cars. It might help with the build.

 

[Steve C]

Alan,

I just looked at my install.

The alternator goes LHS low. If you move it up in order to allow a dry sump pump low the firewall would need to be moved forward about 2" (can't just move it up) so be aware of that before you commit to anything.

FYI: I measured the Aviad wet sump on the installed FE and the lowest point is 6" below
the front bottom edge of the block that puts the front of the pan 1" below the underbody (about the same drop as the lowest point on the bellhousing).

Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Steve --

Thanks for the tip. I have a lot of homework to do on the whole dry-sump issue. From my brief discussion with Aviaid the pump bracket would end up mounted to the oil filter adapter mounting holes. BTW where's your oil filter and how is it oriented? Is it vertical like "normal" for an FE? and so I think would hug the block right above the oil pan gasket surface.

The Aviaid pump is driven by a pulley behind the harmonic balancer so that pretty much defines how far forward it extends.

The other variable is that I'm consider using a remote water pump (like mounted to the radiator) which would make a whole bunch of room where the water pump used to be. Perhaps that would give me some freedom to move the alternator out of the way.

Speaking of ground clearance issues, how far below the plane of the underbody is the lowest point of your flywheel?

Hmmm. Maybe we should move this discussion to the Superformance section....

 

[Steve C]

Alan,

I'm going to take some pics of my install so you can see how tight things are, but if you look at pics I have already posted in the SPF Forum you can get an idea.

Even if you use a remote H2O pump (now you introduce elex that you don't need and move further from the KISS principal) you still will have room issues with the alternator if you try to move it up to allow room for the dry sump pump. BTW if you do go with a standard H2O pump you do not need a bypass as long as you put heater control on high when starting up coolant will flow through the radiator and heater core allowing a very gentle/gradual heat up (if plummed correctly).

With a dry sump pump you have another belt to worry about (reason FORD used the unique front housing with internal gear driven pump).

Why are you hooked on a dry sump. Unless you use the original FORD components it's not replicating the original. Will you be putting on high G's? If that's your concern you can do what I have done and install a Canton Accusump (simple solution and helps with cold start up pre lube too).

My Oil filter is a Canton remote mounted to the L rear of the block and is verticle. You need to run lines out of an oil filter to block adapter in order to utilize the oil cooler and the right angle AN's will get in the way of your dry sump pump to frame spacing. If you forgo A/C a dry sump pump could mount low on Rt side but, I wouldn't recommend doing away with the A/C.

As I wrote in above post: With the Aviaid wet sump there is only 1" at front that is below the underbody pan, about same as bottom of bellhousing. So you need to deal with the bellhousing 1" below anyway.

IMHO only way to go dry sump is to go all the way and use original FORD dry sump/front cover and if you do that the original bellhousing and T44, but will be interested in what you do.

Keep us informed.

Steve P2125

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Steve --

Really looking forward to those pictures.

Thanks,

Alan.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

In answer to "Why are you hooked on a dry sump?" let me just quote a very wise person in another thread:

"Bottom line is we are all "posers" unless it's an original and we each do according to what is "correct" for us."

My thoughts exactly.

 

[David Briggs]

Welcome Alan, the SPF is a wondrous machine!
I would agree with the comment about keeping the A/C, the fun wears off pretty quickly when you are driving on the street w/out it.
Different on the track but that is only a short time w/lots of adrenalin!
Dave

 

[Steve C]

Alan,

Understand very well your comment about "personal taste" in post above (just look at my car) but, I'm trying to offer comments based on my own research before buying and building as well as now with 5,000 miles of road use on it. Lot's of 200-300 mile trips and never a problem, never broke down (lots of tinkering in the garage though).

Another comment I would make is you will be better off with one carb vs 2 (here again KISS and it is "correct" for a MK11A).

Plug for the FE: I have had a number of cars with high HP Windsors and for me the they are not as tractable at low speeds, around town or pleasurable for highway cruising. For me the FE built as I spec'd is very tractable around town (low idle, no bucking, immediate throttle response, LOTS of low end torque and with the ZF gearing chosen runs 70 mph @ 2,000RPM but will jump like a rabbit with a touch of the accelerator.

I'll try to take some pics today.

Another question. Where will you put the dry sump system oil storage tank? As you likely know original MK11A used tank where our A/C evaporator is. Guess you could mount it where the transmission cooler goes or make your car a MK11B and have a tank fabbed forward of the oil cooler.

Untill I post the new pics look in the Superformance Forum for Thread titled something like "Upgrades to P2125". Lots of pics of engine , some at the end with clamshell off, some shots of front of engine looking from interior with the firewall/bulkhead removed ect.

Steve P2125

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Steve --

Regarding the view from http://www.gt40s.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29902&d=1211899655: looks like you have an intertial cutoff switch. Do you know which one it is? Also which fuel pumps are those?

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29897&d=1211898326 almost shows what is needed for the sump pump issue. Looking down from the center of the cabin so we can see between the alternator and block would probaby do it.

FWIW I think the pump body is about 3" diameter. The driven pulley on its front is a little under 6" and its front face is in line with the rear of the harmonic balancer. see http://www.aviaid.com/pdfs/fe.pdf (although imagine pump on other side)

 

[Rich E.]

Another question. Where will you put the dry sump system oil storage tank? As you likely know original MK11A used tank where our A/C evaporator is. Guess you could mount it where the transmission cooler goes or make your car a MK11B and have a tank fabbed forward of the oil cooler.


Steve P2125

I thought about this awhile back. I was thinking about using one of the storage containers sold by Olthoff. You could seal off the lower portion, weld in a couple of bungs, run a couple of lines.......

Might have to have Olthoff build one out of thicker material though.

Just a thought
Rich.

 

[Steve C]

Rich,

Good thought that.

In fact I have the Accusump in false bottom of the L storage box.

Steve

 

[Steve C]

Alan,

I took a number of pics but in order to get detail needed to move in close and when doing that lost the perspective.

I don't have the seats and rear bulkhead out so can't take a pic with better angle than in previous posted pics.

Been thinking and your best bet is to give Dennis Olthoff or Rick Muck a call (dealers who have really good knowledge of the car and spatial relationships). Dennis has done 2 FE's for sure maybe 3 so he can help guide you and will be a good source for components he KNOWS will work for your install.

Keep us informed as you progress.

Steve P2125

PS: Responses to your questions above

Yes that is an "inertia switch" in posted pic that kills the power to fuel pumps.

BTW speaking of fuel pumps if you look at my posted pics you will see that in the cavity under the oil cooler there is an additional fuel pump, filter and "swirl pot"; you might want to consider an arrangement like this.

All 3 fuel pumps are Carter (one for the supply to swirl pot, the other 2 are for redundancy).Be sure you don't use a pump with too high output pressure; with correct pump you will not need a regulator.