Is the right to bear arms outdated.

[Pete McCluskey.]

You are quite right Jim, your stats do seem to Show a different story, I wonder which is correct, the Australian bureau of criminology or Andrew Leigh?
Leigh was a professor of economics at ANU, who resigned to pursue a career as a politician.
With the labor government. The equivalent of your liberal government. I.E. left wing.

 

[Jim Craik]

Pete, your statistics just do not seem right, help me out here.

First you said this about gun related crime...............

"Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent."

It appears that you are saying that GUN-INVOLVED crime is way up, right?

Then you went on to say this about Austrailian crime in general.......................

"•During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
•At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
•Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women."


Pete those are the same numbers, it looks to me like your increase in gun related rape number 29.9% is exactly the same as your total increase in rape number, also 29.9%.

You implied that for gun related crimes, Australia's violent gun crime rate rose 42.2%. Thats exactly the same number that the total violent crime rate increased 42.2%

What is going on here, is someone trying to misslead us?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

No I am not saying gun related crime is way up, I am saying that banning guns had no effect on crime rates.

 

[Jim Craik]

No I am not saying gun related crime is way up, I am saying that banning guns had no effect on crime rates.

posted by Pete

How on earth can you say that?

It is probable that with millions of guns lying around, the numbers would be much worse.


So Pete, all those numbers you posted about increases in "GUN-INVOLVED" crime were not about gun-involved crime at all............Were they?


This IS a discussion about gun crime, right?

Either you are confused or the Australian bureau of criminology is confused, which is it?

 

[Jim Craik]

So Pete, when I posted this:

Homicides involving firearms dropped by 59 percent in the decade following Australia’s gun-law reforms, Harvard University researchers reported last year in an analysis of the Australian statistics.

“In the 18 years prior to the 1996 Australian laws, there were 13 gun massacres (four or more fatalities) in Australia, resulting in 102 deaths,” Howard noted. “There have been none in that category since the Port Arthur laws.”

Those are real GUN-RELATED numbers, are they wrong?

Have there been ANY mass gun murders since the gun ban?

Have homicides involving firearms DROPPED by 59 percent in the decade following Australia’s gun-law reforms?

Have gun suicides DROPPED by 65% since the gun ban?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Suicide by gun has dropped, armed hold ups and home invasions using guns have increased. The elderly in particular are being targeted by home invasion.
On a per capita basis three times the number of women in Australia are raped compared to America. Do you think that maybe because Australian rapists know the woman won't be carrying?

 

[Jim Craik]

Pete,

You started your post with this:

"It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer".

You then went on to show all sorts of statistics that seem to show that gun related crimes were way up. But those statistics were all BULLSHIT!

Gun murder is down 59%

Gun suicide is down 65%

In the 18 years before the gun ban there were 13 mass slaughters with guns, killing 102 people. Since the ban there have been none!!!!!!!!!

The gun ban worked, gun bans work!

They have saved hundreds of lives and you know it!

Is the argument for guns so weak that you must use faked and missleading data?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

The point I was trying to make which yOu seem not to understand, is banning guns has not stopped the overall rate of violent crime. More rapes more armed hold ups more home invasions more homicides.
The rate of suicide using guns is down but sadly the number of suicides is up.
Someone earlier used the word pettifogging, now i think it was apt.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Pete,

You started your post with this:

"It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer".

You then went on to show all sorts of statistics that seem to show that gun related crimes were way up. But those statistics were all BULLSHIT!

Gun murder is down 59%

Gun suicide is down 65%

In the 18 years before the gun ban there were 13 mass slaughters with guns, killing 102 people. Since the ban there have been none!!!!!!!!!

The gun ban worked, gun bans work!

They have saved hundreds of lives and you know it!

Is the argument for guns so weak that you must use faked and missleading data?

Not fake at all straight from the bureau of statistics, I'm talking overall crime rates. Go read my post again carefully.

 

[Dave Lindemann]

WOW! You guys have WAAAAY too much time on your hands........have fun! ;-))

Dave L

 

[Jim Craik]

Pete, what are you trying to do here?

According to the United Nations, in the year 2010, rapes per 100,000 of population:

United Sates..................................27.3
Australia.........................................8.1

 

[Jim Craik]

Equote=Pete;395869]Not fake at all straight from the bureau of statistics, I'm talking overall crime rates. Go read my post again carefully.

I'll do more than read it carefully, I'll cut and paste it!

You posted this:

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Pete, that does not say crime in general, does it? It says "GUN-INVOLVED CRIME"!

Thats what we here in America call BULLSHIT!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Dave you are right, I'm sure I'm wasting mine I'm gone bfn.

 

[Dave Lindemann]

))))

Dave you are right, I'm sure I'm wasting mine I'm gone bfn.

 

[Jim Craik]

Irregardless of Pete's artistic use of words and facts, in the end, the gun ban in Austraila has been very sucessful!

Gun murders down 59%
Gun suicides down 65%
No mass gun slaughter since the ban.

If you extrapolate those numbers to the USA, it would mean thousands and thousands of saved lives!

Thats a fact Jack!

 

[Tom P]

Jim, you're the stat guy, how many murderers committed the 12,000+ gun homicides in the US last year? Do you want all guns taken away from all citizens excluding police etc? I wonder how many murders were committed by citizens with weapons permits? Probably a very very low number if any.

 

[Tom P]

Irregardless of Pete's artistic use of words and facts, in the end, the gun ban in Austraila has been very sucessful!

Gun murders down 59%
Gun suicides down 65%
No mass gun slaughter since the ban.

If you extrapolate those numbers to the USA, it would mean thousands and thousands of saved lives!

Thats a fact Jack!

Wonder who the 41% of the people were murdered by with guns and where the 35% of suicides got their guns from?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Irregardless of Pete's artistic use of words and facts, in the end, the gun ban in Austraila has been very sucessful!

Gun murders down 59%
Gun suicides down 65%
No mass gun slaughter since the ban.

If you extrapolate those numbers to the USA, it would mean thousands and thousands of saved lives!

Thats a fact Jack!

REPEAT SLOWLY AFTER ME. BANNING GUNS DOES NOT LOWER THE OVERALL HOMICIDE RATE. BAD PEOPLE WILL FIND A WAY TO KILL PEOPLE.
The Australian experience confirms this.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime

 

[Larry L.]

[QUOTE=Pete;395892]REPEAT SLOWLY AFTER ME. BANNING GUNS DOES NOT LOWER THE OVERALL HOMICIDE RATE. BAD PEOPLE WILL FIND A WAY TO KILL PEOPLE.[/QUOTE]



It might also help if people remember what Archie Bunker said to his anti-gun daughter in response to her expressed horror over the number of people killed by guns:


"Would yuz feel better lil' goyal if de wuz tossed outta windahs?"



And with that little pearl of wisdom, I'm now going to bed...

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Good Night Larry, good night Jim. Sleep well and say a prayer for those in Oz affected by the wild fires.