Is the right to bear arms outdated.

[Jim Craik]

Larry, if both Colombine and Virginia Tech had armed security, how can you call that a "gun free zone".

Larry I never said "gun control laws will keep us safe" that rediculus, no one thinks that. Gun control laws will help slow the slaughter. A gun ban would do so much more but there is no chance it this time.

Even with the proven example of Australia, the UK and Japan showing that a ban works, a ban saves lives, you will contine to think that..........Guns are dangerous, therefore we need more guns!

Genius!

 

[Jim Craik]

Double post

 

[Larry L.]

Larry, if both Colombine and Virginia Tech had armed security, how can you call that a "gun free zone".

Larry I never said "gun control laws will keep us safe" that rediculus, no one thinks that. Gun control laws will help slow the slaughter. A gun ban would do so much more but there is no chance it this time.

Even with the proven example of Australia, the UK and Japan showing that a ban works, a ban saves lives, you will contine to think that..........Guns are dangerous, therefore we need more guns!

Genius!

You're pettifogging again. Answer the question. If gun control laws are supposed to prevent gun crimes as your side constantly preaches, and "gun-free zone" laws ban all guns in a given area, how is it that massacres in gun-free zones can happen at all? Beyond that, how is it possible that these massacres always seem to occur IN "gun-free" zones? (After all, didn't you just claim - AGAIN - that "a gun ban would do so much more..."? Isn't a "gun-free zone" actually "gun-ban" zone"?)

Given that inconvenient little truth, how can you possibly sit there and tell us that people are safer whenever/wherever guns are banned???

It's after midnight. I'm going to bed.

 

[Danimal W]

Mr Craik,

I don't recall seeing any responses to my questions about the federal laws not being enforced. And provided only a few simple laws that are not being enforced that truly would make a difference.

In addition, is there any outrage that the government PARTICIPATED in 1500+ straw purchases, whereby willingly providing criminals with guns. Many of those 1500+ have NOT been recovered.
(This was operation fast and furious, btw). Is there any outrage that Obama swept it under the rug? Especially when he stood there yesterday and talked about keeping the guns out of the wrong hands. Really contradictory, wouldn't you say?

 

[Danimal W]

All of the talk about more gun control... It will take time to legislate and implement. Those few federal laws (& don't forget there are also state laws on top of that) could be enforced NOW.

If I recall correctly,you have stated "if it saves 1 life it's worth it." Wouldn't prosecuting and incarcerating violent criminals 4 federal gun offenses save a lot more than then just 1 life, so wouldn't that be worth it?

 

[John Milmont]

I so want this! And I know you guys want one of these, too...

M-47 Medium Tank ( Patton )

The M-47 Patton tank is extremely Rare in the US , Most were sold to our Allies when the M-48 was introduced and many remain in service today in Europe.

This M-47 has been beautifully preserved , is very complete both in & out with many accessories. It is Serial # 9992 Showing 2,289 miles on the odometer and 4,906 hours on the hour meter.
A beautiful & showy tank and a good buy at $275,000.00.
Location: Largo, Fla. 33771

 

[Mark]

That's cheap. I fancy an M4 Sherman, but 350K and up, makes it an unlikely purchase

 

[Jim Craik]

Mr Craik,

I don't recall seeing any responses to my questions about the federal laws not being enforced. And provided only a few simple laws that are not being enforced that truly would make a difference.

Federal gun laws are not being enforced because the Republicans at the behest of the NRA have made that impossable.

The Director of the ATF used to be appointed by the President. In 2006 at the direction of the NRA, Republican Congressman Todd Tiahrt added a rider to the Patriot Act, saying that the ATF Director must be confirmed by the Senate. He received the NRA Defender of Freedom Award.

Since that date the Republicans, at the direction of the NRA have foiled all attemps to name a director. We have not had a Director of ATF since that law passed. Even BushII nominations were cut down by the NRA as too restrictive.

The ATF has been made usless! In 1972 there were 2,500 ATF agents, today over 40 years later there are still only 2,500 agents, charged with over seeing not just Alcohol and tobacco, but 100,000 registered gun dealers.

In 2006 Republican Congressman Sensen Brenner, at the behest of the NRA attached a rider to a Federal Spending bill that virtually eliminated any chance of Federal gun laws being enforced. He too received the NRA Defender of Freedom Award!

This bill made it illegal to have a database of gun owners and they made it illegal for ATF agent to go into a gun dealers shop more than once a year!!!! That makes it almost impossable to investigate where and how the criminal got the gun!!!!!

Why would anyone make it illegal for investigators to go into a gun shop more than once a year? Oh yea, its because the NRA does not want gun crimes investigated!


Additionaly, this NRA sponsered bill required the distruction of all background check and gun buyer information within 24 hours!!!! That makes tracking where a gun used in a crime came from.

That NRA sponsered law also says that gun shop owners can not be required to assist police investigations!!!!

THATS RIGHT, THE REPUBLICANS AT THE DIRECTION OF THE NRA PASSED A LAW THAT GUN SHOP OWNERS COULD NOT BE REQUIRED TO ASSIST THE POLICE OR ATF IN INVESTIGATING A GUN CRIME!

And believe me, virtually all gun dealers ignore any attempt to investigate a gun crime!

Also, among other restrictions to investigators this NRA sponsored law removed the part about not selling guns to folks who appear to be drunk or on drugs.

The NRA insisted that drunks and people on drugs must be able to purchase guns!!!!!!!

Danimal, the Federal Laws are not being inforced because the Republicans and the NRA do not want them to be inforced!!!!

 

[Pat]

How about really solving the problem?
The FBI says that essentially 80 percent of the crimes reported to police are gang related in one way or another. The primary motive for gang related murders are gang rivalries; or as the FBI has described it; “friction between rivals in some criminal enterprise.” The secondary motive for gang related murder is “friction between partners in some criminal enterprise.” And of course the tertiary, third, most common reason for murder is stopping the mouths of witnesses or victims of crimes committed by gang members: followed by victims of gang initiations. A 2009 report by the Justice Department says about 900,000 gang members live "within local communities across the country," and about 147,000 are in U.S. prisons or jails. The gang population estimate is up 200,000 since 2005.
For various reasons the total number of gang related homicides I've been able to find appears to be about 11,500; while the total for the rest of us is about 3,000. (I'm assuming those of you reading this don't consider my time in the U.S. Army as "gang related".)
Essentially, then; the percentage of gang related homicides in the United States is about 74 percent – and rising as the number of murders among the general population declines. For those of an analytical turn of mind, that means the homicide rate among law abiding Americans is about 1.0 to 1.1 per 100,000 population.
Contrast two of the nation's largest cities, Chicago recorded 513 murders in 2012 while New York reported 414 murders even though it has more than three times the population. In Chicago, Police Chief McCarthy said the city's high murder rate, up 18 percent over last year (as of December 16), was due to gang violence. Eighty percent of the homicides were gang-related and 80 percent of the victims were African-Americans, he said. This is in spite of claims that Chicago confiscates more illegal weapons than anyone else. McCarthy told CBS Chicago that for every one gun that NYPD takes off its city streets, Chicago officers recover almost seven.
New York Police Chief Kelly attributed the murder rate decline there to the increasing use of stop-and-frisk tactics, when police can stop and search people on the street they consider suspicious. This action is specifically oriented toward gang related activity.
Predictably civil rights groups and some local politicians have criticized New York’s stop-and-frisk tactics, saying that most people stopped turn out to be innocent, and they unfairly target black and Latino men. The practice is the subject of a federal court case over whether it is unconstitutional. Ironically, the reduction of victims from this program also favors the minority community. Apparently these same liberal groups are less bothered when the innocent people targeted are lawful gun owners.
Maybe it would help if murderers actually faced justice. In 2008, police solved only 35 percent of the homicides in Chicago, 22 percent in New Orleans and 21 percent in Detroit. Yet authorities solved 75 percent of the killings in Philadelphia, 92 percent in Denver and 94 percent in San Diego. (NYPD solved 59 percent of homicides in 2009.) FYI: The average time served by murderers released from Illinois prisons is only 10 years. The average sentence for rape is 12 years, but the average time served by rapists is only four years.
Guns generally regarded as “assault weapons” a term based solely on their appearance, not function, are responsible for less than 2% of gun deaths nationally. In fact they are not nearly as deadly in the case of mass shootings as are semiautomatic pistols and shotgun (possessed by the shooters in Aurora, Columbine, and Virginia Tech). The Ft Hood murderer only used a pistol as did the one at Wesleyan University .
If you want to actually solve the problem on the macro scale, go after the gangs. If you want to solve it on the micro scale, register individuals taking psychometric drugs and add that to the Federal database searched for new gun ownership screening.
Solve the damn murders and take the offenders off the streets and make murder with a firearm a more serious offense. In Florida the minimum for firing a gun in the commission of any felony is 20 years. If the victim was shot, it's 25 years. Prisoners here (on average) serve 86% of their sentences.
Reexamine the past efforts to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill without paying due credence to the fact that the public schools and criminal justice systems aren't prepared to recognize and treat them. Enforce laws for fraudulently completing gun checks. In the meantime stop harassing lawful citizen gun owners who want to hunt, collect and protect themselves and their families.
By the way, it's legal to own a tank. It is not legal to posess high explosive projectiles and warheads. So you can run over people with it but not shoot them.

Jim, the Justice Department reports to the president. They enforce and don't enforce the laws they wish. In the case of the Mexican Drug Cartels, they are apparently free to distribute weapons to them in violation of the law. To suggest the NRA or the Republicans control the Justice Department is really silly.

 

[craig]

Jim I think you missed the part where Danimal wrote "truly would make a difference"

 

[marc]

We are so worried about the .001 percent that the rest of us are being affected. Drug abuse, diseases, old age, home accidents, car accidents, etc. multiply the number of deaths exponentially related to gun deaths. We are spending more on ink and electrons over guns than working on cancer, and other malignant deaths that can be prevented. And all you believe is that a tool, a device of home protection, or a machine that provides you food is evil and the whole reason that America is in chaos. The media devotees are charged with information to make these items talking points and rile the masses with mindless thought processes that make those of us believe this is a big deal because they say so. And throughout this thread, we have been pulverized with "facts" from the internet because "everything put on the internet is true". Murders and mass killings make a small amount of causes of death in the US that we are loosing touch with reality. The government is not here to save you. The government has become a massive money moving machine taking it from you, keep a percentage for their own needs, doling out when necessary, building bureaucracy larger and larger becoming a serious portion of the GDP while producing nothing. Their goal is to their constituents. Bringing more money home to their area to placate the masses. If you don't matter, you don't get money. Be a loyal democrat, don't donate to the relection campaign and see how your company or town does. Obama isn't crazy, he is niave and vindictive, he is not going to shut the gun industry down, not with the amount of money people are spending in that sector right now. The taxes they enjoy from new gun sales and licenses are making them cover more and more spending that they are more than willing to waste on other utopian ideas.

 

[Danimal W]

Mr Craik,

It is irrelevant if there is a director or not of the ATF when it comes to enforcing those laws that I pointed out. Afterall it is not the ATF that acts as prosecutor, but the U.S. Attorney's office which falls under the Attorney General and the Department of Justice. Currently Eric Holder is the AG and therefore has the role of directing the DOJ.

So your argument blaming the NRA and GOP is invalid.

Would you like to try again to answer the question regarding why aren't these simple laws enforced, and wouldn't they actually make a difference???


And since you brought up the national database for gun owners... THANKFULLY there is not a national DB, because that IS the first step to confiscation, which we know is what you want...

And you never responded to the fact that I am still here, much to your chagrin, because i refused to be a victim, hereby "if it saves one life, it's worth it." And since I am an organ donor for my brother, I actually saved ay least 2 lives... And because I thwarted a crime and did not have to discharge my gun, I actually saved the life/lives of evil doers as well.

I hope to never need to use a firearm to defend me or my family. But once an evil doer decides to violate me, or my family, then THAT evil doer has made the decision for BOTH of us.

 

[Larry L.]

Solve the damn murders and take the offenders off the streets and make murder with a firearm a more serious offense. In Florida the minimum for firing a gun in the commission of any felony is 20 years. If the victim was shot, it's 25 years. Prisoners here (on average) serve 86% of their sentences.

This sounds sort of familiar. Where have I read something akin to this before?

Oh, yeah. I remember:


"If you want more gun laws, how about passing a federal law that says anyone committing any criminal offence while in possession of a firearm (whether he displays or uses it or not) automatically goes to prison for 20 years ON TOP OF whatever sentence he may get for the primary crime? How about a federal law that says anyone who intentionally and illegally kills someone with a gun (or any lethal weapon for that matter) automatically gets the death penalty upon conviction? 'And someone who purposely injures someone with a gun (or other lethal weapon) gets an automatic 10 years on top of the assault sentence? At least THEN the people who are actually g-u-i-l-t-y of gun crimes are the one's being slapped around. 'Work for you?" (post #392...pg 20...this thread)


Obviously I couldn't agree with you more, Veek.

 

[Danimal W]

Mr Craik,

If you wonder why some gunowners might be skeptical about ATF/FBI, I'll refresh your memory of Janet Reno and Bill Clinton and the ATF/FBI'S murdering of US Citizens.

Waco, TX and Ruby Ridge, ID

Reno/ Clinton wanted to grandstand for the media in Waco and dozens of women and chuldren were murdered. Local law enforcement told ATF/FBI repeatedly that David Koresh routinely went into town and that would provide the best chance of safety for all involved with arresting him. But nope, gotta make a big scene. Innocent people were murdered... "Oops, my bad" was basically the official response.

In Ruby Ridge, Randy Weaver's son was killed by the same ATF/FBI. Then an FBI SNIPER murdered UNARMED Vicki Weaver by blowing away part of her skull while she held their 11 month old child.

Yeah... I'm skeptical about government intentions...wonder why....

 

[Larry L.]

Federal gun laws are not being enforced because the Republicans at the behest of the NRA have made that impossable...the Federal Laws are not being inforced because the Republicans and the NRA do not want them to be inforced!!!!

Your ability to constantly come up with some of the most amazing claptrap I've ever read is nothing short of astonishing. 'Mind numbing actually.

 

[Jim Craik]

Larry,

Tell us anything I said that is not true.

 

[Larry L.]

Larry,

Tell us anything I said that is not true.

'Glad to. How about this for starters:


"Gun control laws will help slow the slaughter. A gun ban would do so much more..."

History has proven over and over again that gun control laws aimed at law abiding people do n-o-t-h-i-n-g to stop criminals and loons from doing what they do. If Sandy Hook, Columbine, V.T., Aurora and so on don't prove that to you, I'm at a complete loss as to what will. Look at Chicago. It has THEEEEEE highest murder rate in the nation while at the same time having some of the toughest "gun control" laws anywhere - and Chicago's murder rate is going up! If gun control laws "help slow the slaughter" as you claim - how can Chicago's murder rate be going UP?

'You want to drastically cut down on gun crime? Then focus on measures aimed at slapping crooks and loons around - not on further infringment upon the gun rights of law abiding people.


(Oh - and that little gem of yours that I quoted in #665 above is bull feathers as well. I doubt Holder dances to the NRA'S tune OR the GOP's.)

 

[John Milmont]

Larry, Jim is saying that if someone waved a magic wand and made guns no-longer exist, then people would not be able to use guns in violence.

Its hard to argue against that if there were no guns, there would be no gun violence. But as Obama once said "that horse has already left the barn!".

Jim, how are you going to stop guns from coming in from Mexico? Its not working to well with drugs....

 

[Jim Craik]

Larry,

You said this

History has proven over and over again that gun control laws aimed at law abiding people do n-o-t-h-i-n-g to stop criminals and loons from doing what they do.

Larry what you say can not possably be true unless you can explain away these statistics:


Gun Murders 2010:

United Kingdom...............14
Japan............................47
Australia........................59
USA..........................9,369

The UK, Japan and Australia baned guns, their gun bans certinally did more than "NOTHING" didn't they!

 

[Larry L.]

YOU'RE PETTIFOGGING AGAIN.

We're not talking about gun control laws in Japan or wherever - we're talking about gun control laws HERE and their effectiveness HERE.