Is the right to bear arms outdated.

Mr Craik,

In all of the "what ifs" that I have provided, I hope you do understand that I do not want/wish/hope that any of them happen to anyone...including you and your family.

BTW,... Protection against whatever also includes animals. My ex-business partner could have used some protection...he was attacked by two full grown rottweilers....138 stitches later.

But sadly evil is out there as evident by the violent crimes that are committed by a segment of society. I abide by strict safety rules and practices,... That's how I was brought up, I've around guns my whole life.

(Hope you're sitting down for this part...my dad was a certified firearms instructor/gunsmith/ffl so.....). The first time I shot a gun, a real gun (.22lr single shot), I was 3.5 years old. Before we shot, he went over safety and safety and safety. Sitting in my dad's lap, with his arms on each side of me to prevent any problems. He put out jugs of water and demonstrated with a very visual experience what happens when hit with just a little bullet. With it pointed down range, he loaded it for me, reminding me to keep finger off of the trigger and out of the trigger guard until I had the target in the sights. And seeing those jugs explode will make a lasting impression.. growing up with that kind of dad was freakin cool. While neighborhood friends got bb guns and didn't know the first thing about safety, we were not allowed bb guns. Too many people consider them as toys. Instead we got real guns, and got to go to the shooting range and hunting. Um, I'll take a shotgun or rifle over a bb gun, thanks. We were around guns all the time and knew more and exercised better safety than a lot of adults. And still do... Forty years later... I have not been involved in any carelessness accidents. There are people I hunt with and I therefore trust them with my life. There are people that I know that are fun to hang around but you couldn't pay me enough money to consider hunting with them. And we know that, unlike golf there are no mulligans with firearms.

Sorry, I take my right and therefore my responsibilities with firearms very seriously. And I get quite perturbed when someone who doesn't know me from Adam, makes inaccurate statements about what I say or do. One of the arguments about rights and responsibilities is on the 1st amendment and how we can not yell, "fire" in a crowded theater, unless there is a fire. Very true, but I will point out that the also do not gag us before we enter the theater.

Half (only half just to be polite) reality shows like swamp people or American guns or sons of guns are a joke and is scripted tv to get ratings. Sorry but reality tv, isn't reality. Those shows purposely show gun owners not in the best light. Kind of like when the networks air a special about how the housing market blew up and sank fast.... Blaming realtors, bankers, and appraisers... But never mention the greedy home buyers who knew they couldn't afford the house, but gave in to temptation.

Ok enough, time to get stuff together so I can hopefully knock some ducks and geese down tomorrow... And if you travel by airplane, I'm doing this for your safety... The plane that crashed in the Hudson river, crashed because it flew through a flock of geese which knocked out its engines. So if things go well, there will be less waterfowl to bring down your plane... And more tasty treats in my freezer.

Mr Pete, sorry that you opened a can of worms?? Cheers gents.
 
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Mr Craik,

Ok almost enough for tonight....

On the topic of protection from evil again.. since the police do not have the obligation to protect me, I have the obligation to protect me and my family. And as I have stated multiple times, I do not want to have to shoot anyone, but if an evil person has decided to do harm (not take belongings) to me or my family, then that person has made the decision for both of us. If that evil person wants harm to be done, I'd prefer that the harm does not befall on me or mine. I have the obligation to my family to do that.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
And thinking more about Ruby Ridge and the antigun Executive branch at the time.... Kinda made me think about this picture.....


http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...3x403/734266_188291964650279_1612451670_n.png

You don't know your history very well. Actually, the Jewish Warsaw ghetto was armed....and they were all killed (heroic, but still dead or sent to CC camps).

The problem with your "point" is that it leads people to believe that their own personal firearms are some sort of defense against the government. They aren't. People who actually take up that course - the Weavers, Koresh, others -- end up dead, dead, dead.

The best protection against government tyranny is not some mid 50s gun "enthusiast" with 20 pistols in his attack. It's education and knowledge and not allowing crazies to run the government, and using the courts and the political system to protect individual liberties.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
The best protection against government tyranny is...not allowing crazies to run the government (too late!), and using the courts (agenda driven as well) and the political system (often too corrupt) to protect individual liberties.

I agree completely with your philosophy, but in reality the 'remedies' you suggest often don't work to preserve our rights at all.

One example: The SCOTUS ruling on eminent domain. 'A COMPLETE JOKE. It flies in the face of over 200 years of p-r-e-c-e-d-e-n-t...not to mention the constitution itself. (...and the current court is supposed to be conservative???)

I'm actually astonished that SCOTUS confirmed our individual right to keep and bear.
 
You don't know your history very well. Actually, the Jewish Warsaw ghetto was armed....and they were all killed (heroic, but still dead or sent to CC camps).

The problem with your "point" is that it leads people to believe that their own personal firearms are some sort of defense against the government. They aren't. People who actually take up that course - the Weavers, Koresh, others -- end up dead, dead, dead.

The best protection against government tyranny is not some mid 50s gun "enthusiast" with 20 pistols in his attack. It's education and knowledge and not allowing crazies to run the government, and using the courts and the political system to protect individual liberties.

Jeff, some are good points... Oh, and I am pretty good with history too. The ghetto resistance was a surprise to the Nazis. Unfortunately, too many non-Jewish looked the other way due to Nazi intimidation and too many Jews didn't believe/understand what levelbof evil they were facing. But it was kind of taking a knife to a gun fight.

The reason for posting that picture was to show that there is no such thing as a perfect world.

And as for the Waco/Ruby Ridge incidents, as stated Koresh could have been arrested anytime, but that wasn't sensational enough and look what happened. And sorry, Randy Weaver was the one who was charged with crimes, not Vicky Weaver, and holding an 11 month old child, she was not a threat. And she did not deserve to be executed/murdered by the FBI...
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
New Mexico shootings? I suppose you gun people can come up with more silly excuses.
The rest of the civilised world has looked on since the last massacre in the USA, and found that the way many of you have interpreted the so called right to bear arms is a load of crap. You cannot come up with any more silly arguments.
Look at your national statistics. It says it all.
I've been to your country so many times though the on the last visit I narrowly avoided being involved in an exchange of shots in a gun fight walking between the Water Tower and my hotel three blocks along on Michigan. I have not been back since.
I can think of safer places to spend my time these days.
 

Pat

Supporter
Really????
I guess it depends on how you wish to be victimized. The U.S. has a much higher murder rate 4.8 vs 1.2/100K population. However, as I previously posted, eliminate inner city gang related murders (mostly gang on gang crime) the U.S. rate falls to about 1.4%.

But then there is this:

Crime stats (Source UN): United Kingdom vs United States

British Crime stats American Crime stats

Assault UK 2.8% (ranked 2nd) U.S. 1.2% (ranked 11th)

Rape UK 0.9% (ranked 6th -125% more than U.S.) U.S. 0.4% (ranked 13th)

Drug offenses UK 183,419 per 100,000 people U.S. 560.1 per 100,000 people
(UK ranked 2nd. 326 times more than U.S.) (U.S. ranked 4th)

Total Crime U.K 26.4%(ranked 3rd) U.S. 21.1% (ranked 15th)
(UK 25 times more than the U.S)


On the positive side:

Perception of walking safely after dark UK 70% (UK ranked 12th) U.S. 82% (U.S. ranked 2nd - 17% more than UK)

Belief in police efficiency UK 72% U.S. 89%
(UK ranked 6th) (U.S. ranked 1st) 24% more than UK)

The tourist brochures don't seem to include the following:

Violent crime worse in Britain than in US | Mail Online

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

We have a saying here, "People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks"...
 
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You probably don't realise, but quoting the "Daily Mail" to back up your points has precisely the opposite effect.

There is a reason it's nick name is the "Daily Fascist"
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
New Mexico shootings? I suppose you gun people can come up with more silly excuses.

No "excuses" needed. Criminals and loons do what they do in our country as well as YOURS.

The rest of the civilised world has...found that the way many of you have interpreted the SO CALLED(?!) right to bear arms is a load of crap.

"So called"? "Load of crap"? Really. Have you ever READ the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Evidently not, because if you had you'd know that it says in part, "... the RIGHT of the people to keep and BEAR Arms, shall not be infringed." In light of that, how can you claim our "so called" right to bear arms is a "load of crap"?


...the last visit I narrowly avoided being involved in an exchange of shots in a gun fight walking between the Water Tower and my hotel three blocks along on Michigan. I have not been back since.

Chicago bears the unenviable title of "murder capital of the U.S." It's infested with criminal gangs. So I'm not really surprised when someone staying there reports an experience such as yours. And yet Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws anywhere. So, if your position is that the U.S. should ban all guns (or something else along those lines), what makes you think doing so would prevent gun crimes - either here in the U.S. or anywhere else for that matter? We already have what constitutes a total gun ban in certain areas. It's called the "gun-free zone" law (it's clearly unconstitutional [see the 2nd Amend above], but that's beside the point here). That law says absolutely no gun of any kind can be brought into this-or-that area by anybody (LEOs are an exception). 'Care to guess where ALMOST ALL mass murders have taken place in this country? That's right. Gun-free zones. So much for "banning guns" or "the law" being a deterrent to crooks and loons.
 

Pat

Supporter
You probably don't realise, but quoting the "Daily Mail" to back up your points has precisely the opposite effect.

There is a reason it's nick name is the "Daily Fascist"

Gee, I thought I was taking my chances quoting the UN!
 
You all ways take chances when quoting the UN.

I'm not saying the UK doesn't have it's problems, it does. It's just that gun massacres isn't one of them. Even if it was, we wouldn't be daft enough to think more guns would solve the problem. That's like saying we have a drug problem, so lets give everyone more crack!
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Jon,

Thats absolutly true. The problem we have here in the US is way too many guns, we have so many guns, it has proved impossible to keep them out of the hands of crazy, angry, hate-filled people!

Regardless of laws, these people easily get guns and folks die, daily!

Then the gun lovers answer, "we need to keep guns away from crazy, angry, hate-filled people, but then they fight any attempt to do this! The say "we need more guns" not less! As if more guns will make it harder for these crazies to get guns?

Their thinking goes something like this, there is another mass killing, they then say:

GUNS ARE DANGEROUS, THEREFORE WE NEED MORE GUNS!

Meanwhile, people contine to die in the thousands!
 
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Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
You all ways take chances when quoting the UN.

I'm not saying the UK doesn't have it's problems, it does. It's just that gun massacres isn't one of them. Even if it was, we wouldn't be daft enough to think more guns would solve the problem. That's like saying we have a drug problem, so lets give everyone more crack!

Well this could open a new can of worms and I have no wish to.
But I have often thought legalising drugs would help rather than hinder, as did ending prohibition.
Take the profit out of drugs and the gangs will stop dealing.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Then the gun lovers answer, "we need to keep guns away from crazy, angry, hate-filled people, but then they fight any attempt to do this!

No, what "they" fight is further infringment on the right of law abiding people to "keep & bear" in order to achieve that.


The say "we need more guns" not less!

Quote any person who's ever said "we need more guns" in that context (outside of some drunk in a bar somewhere).
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Larry,

You said: Quote any person who's ever said "we need more guns" in that context (outside of some drunk in a bar somewhere).

How about FOX News?

Fox News poll: Twice as many favor more guns over banning guns to reduce crime

NRA says the answer is more guns not less, just like in Israel

****************

Larry, you are right, FOX and the NRA do sound like drunks ouside a bar!
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
What's the full context? Link???

NRA says the answer is more guns not less, just like in Israel
jammas.hussain20121226012718380.jpg


A man looks at the casket of one of the victims of the December 14 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, on December 18, 2012.

‘US media incite culture of gun violence’
The United States’ top gun lobby has said that the country needs more weapons and has called on the authorities to place armed guards in all US schools, just like they do in Israel.


On Sunday, National Rifle Association (NRA) chief executive Wayne LaPierre said that Israel should be a model for the US in its efforts to deal with school violence.

“Israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing: They said, ‘We’re going to stop it,’ and they put armed security in every school, and they have not had a problem since then,” LaPierre stated.

After a period of silence, the NRA responded to the recent massacre at a Connecticut elementary school by resisting calls for tighter gun control and saying the answer is more guns not less.
 
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