Le Mans Classic 2004

[Duvalof]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

Hey my dad was there in 1967 and he touched J5 & J6 !
I should put his hand under glass !! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously,

Both opinions (Mike & Jim) are valid, the only thing i can say from my kind on spirit is that i love to see these cars running on a track and IMO the rarer they are the higher interest they have. Of course when you know that the car raced in a famous event in the 70's it gives immediatly more power to your feeling. At Le Mans Classic 2004, J11 was the only MkIV, i saw it running the Friday evening and it was the first i saw, even if it is a "replica" it was quiet interesting to see and to ear. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

Maybe this thread should go into the historical forum.

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

Good idea.
Best

 

[Keith]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

Hooray! Taken me since March to register on this thing. Thanks to the tenacity of Ron Earp, I can now post as well as read!!! Anyway, my 2p on this thorny subject. MkIV-J6 makes a very valid and compelling argument re: the 2 photographs. It's all about historical fact and misrepresentation is exactly that, whether intentional or not - whether for financial gain or not. The truth is the truth and history is a matter of fact not personal interpretation Both should be presented in it's purest form for the benefit of posterity....(now pulling crash hat on waiting for the barrage)

Regards

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

Jim

I agree that Brian Wingfield was not "FORD authorized"
to assign chassis # J-11 and J-12. And in a courtroom,
the Ford lawyers could force the owners to use another.

But if J-11 and J-12 are essentially constructed identically to the other Ford/Kar Kraft machines, I don't see why the need to label them as "replicas". If I purchase every part from Chrysler over the counter and build a Viper (and you could)...would you call it a "replica" ?
Not worth as much as one with official chassis plate and title...but I'd still call it a Viper.

MikeD

 

[Keith]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

Traditionally, surely, only with the consent of the original manufacturer? (Who would presumably also allow an ID plate)I can see lots of liability issues here and I could also see a manufacturer denying under oath that such a vehicle not being sanctioned, approved or manufactured by them is in fact not a Viper, Ford etc etc if the need arose. Surely the process of manufacture by the manufacturer (Ford, Chrysler whatever) makes it authentic - anything else is a "replica" "clone" but NOT a genuine Ford/Chrysler. Surely, that is the fundamental issue?

 

[wpeter]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

I think it's absurd to call the two spare tubs that were built at the same time as the other tubs replicas. Many car makers made chassis' and had them bodied by some other company. They are not called Zagatos or Pininfarinas.If these are not original tubs, what are they? I believe Cunningham had a couple chassis' left that were not bodied and had no chassis number. Are those replicas? The people with the original cars are always the ones who protest the loudest and love to use the R word. Actually they are usually calling each other names when they find out they own one of 2 cars with the same chassis number.This is what happens when non racers get into buying race cars.It's all whose ox is being gored.
It would be interesting to ask the guys who built these tubs if they thought they built replicas.

 

[Jim Holden]

Re: J-11 PRESENTED FALSE ?

J What?

Perhaps a great deal of the problem of determining "provenance" would be alleviated if folks were just willing to accurately describe and acknowledge what they have.

There should be little argument that over time, if these cars are used at all, they will get worn out, parts will be replaced and repairs made. At what point do they become "your Grandfather's ax" where the handle has been replaced three times and the blade twice? ...and yet, by damn, it's still Grandfather's ax!

As Jim has stated, the odds of seeing J-3 through J-8 out on the track being driving vigorously lessens with the passing years... the increasing values of the cars and the inextricable deterioration of the integrity of their structure effectively precludes that. After all, does anyone want to go into space in a 35 year old space capsule?

So, I'm all in favor of seeing well done vintage cars out on the track at Lime Rock and Road America, even if the nothing in the car other than the leather in the seats is over two years old.

J