Little Venting - SPF Construction

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Glenn B.

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Little Venting

Michael,

"My only comment is that while I too am happy SPF is building these fantastic cars and building them so close to original specifications, it is 2012 and manufacturing techniques have improved... a lot."

"a picture is worth......." A shot of the SPF factory vs. the 2012 Porsche Factory.

The fact that SPF produces the level of quality they do with such limited resources should be applauded, not criticized. They do take quality issues seriously and act on constructive customer feedback, when given. I speak from experience, having owned 3 of their products over the last 7 years. They can't afford 2012 technology or a team of Six Sigma engineers and still make a buck on these cars. They have to build them the old fashioned way using manual labor.

I'll repeat...I think it's time to bring expectations down to a realistic level.

Best,

Glenn
 

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Re: Little Venting

Larry,

I have expressed a bit of frustration over the car and some of the quality. Much of my issues were more installer specific (I have those documented in a thread somewhere here) but there are areas that can be addressed at Hi-Tech. A few small things could be done at the factory to fix it once and for all (e.g. headlight cover alignment, body alignment, chassis sealing for paint, adding real gaskets to front car so it seals out footwell, etc). That said, I firmly believe that if you call up Olthoff and ask him to go through the entire car before you pick it up while he installs the drive train, you will be more than happy.

After the Olthoff team tore my care down the chassis and rebuilt it, I have had nearly zero issues outside of my clutch master going bad (40 dollar fix with 2 hours of my labor and that was a Wilwood part that broke) and the time it took to replace the Girling canisters. The car from Hi-Tech is great but Olthoff will make it better.

Regarding workmanship, I agree with DaveM. There are issues that I wish were addressed but overall the car is better than most replica builders in my humble opinion. The fact that it is so good in may ways is one of the reasons I am confused when I see some things so easy to easy to fix at the factory. That said, I know in my line of work the last 2% is the hardest.

Regarding Olthoff, I don't mean to be such a stark advocate for Olthoff on a public form but that entire team got me out of what I thought was a $100K mistake when I didn't know who to turn to.. that made a big impression on me.

Kevin
 

Steve C

Steve
GT40s Supporter
Re: Little Venting

Glenn,

I am the PROUD owner of P2125. Have done lot's of upgrades, mods and tweaks to the car because I wanted to (see SPF Forum "Upgrades/Mods to P2125") and a few things because I needed to BUT, never doubted that I would need to keep a wrench handy.

My background is Nuclear Engineering (former Engineer from the Rickover Program, served as liason between the Navy and Electric Boat and on one of our SSBN's) now run a Manufacturers Representative Co dealing with electronics for the military. So I have seen and do see a lot of manufactuuring and quality issues.


Have and have had a number of "present day" sports cars and am in a position where I can have pretty much any one I want.

I too know what the "real ones" were like and had a number of muscle cars in the 60'70's that had paint issues, gap issues, electrical issues, water intrusion issues, mechanical issues ect...also did a lot of builds and mods.

In my opinion the "early adopters" who by the way were screaming for the car to get released probably were the "beta sites" but, if the buyers went through someone like Olthoff as I did they would have found that many of the issues they are finding Olthoff found,corrected and he provided feedback to the factory that I doubt the other dealers did.

Did my research comparing other manufacturers and was and am still convinced that SPF is the best for the buck (for me).

Your post above is a breath of fresh air. I couldn't have said it better!

Steve

PS: I'll bet that a survey of customers who bought cars from Olthoff would show much better than those who did not or who have done their own builds.

PPS: And if one thinks the roller is a problem good luck if they didn't make the right choice for an engine builder.
 
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Re: Little Venting

Michael,

I have enjoyed your posts over the last couple of years, along with all the other complaints and praises posted on the SPF product. I have had a SPF MkIII for the last 8 years and it has never let me down.

As I finally have ordered my SPF GT40, a few things I have picked up on from this forum, are the variations in customer satisfaction, from one end of the spectrum all the way to the other. Most of the responses posted by owners that had the car assembled by the "pro's", has been very positive. Being located in Southern California, there were several recommendations for installers. I visited several and also made a visit to Dennis Olthoff's facility. In the end, I decided to have Dennis assemble the car when it FINALLY arrives. I really liked the feedback from Dennis and Paul and the little nuances each car presents and how they come up with little gadgets and tricks that make the car a little more tolerable and enjoyable to own and drive.

You are right in the quality issues, some of the issues could and should be fixed at the factory. I know for a fact that some of the problems have been addressed over the years and am sure they will continue to improve their product as they build more. Even with all these issues that have been brought up, I still can't wait for it to get here so I can enjoy the driving experience and even the tinkering that goes along with it.

Mike Murphy #2307
 

Mike

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Little Venting

As time goes by, things change. Opinions change. What was acceptable then, may not be acceptable now. I appreciate the older guys and remembering how it was 40 years back and what was deemed acceptable then but, businesses must evolve to survive and SPF is a business. I don't know where 2161 fits in the production sequence but maybe things have gotten better. There was/is room for it. Looking forward to the next event that brings us all together to shoot the chit and enjoy these cars for what they truly are... awesome!

Every time I look at mine, I giggle like a 12 yr old girl!

2012072801.jpg
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Re: Little Venting

On another note, would anyone be interested in a very retro looking rear diffuser for these cars? Retaining the period correct look is paramount and if it can be done, I'll post pics when finished.

Not hijack the tread (but I will anyhow!) I have developed an aluminum rear lower closeout panel that duplicates in sprirt the panels installed at FAV. It is NOT exact as my source for a MK I panel sold his car (Damn you Fran!) but is pretty close. I'll post pictures shortly as it is tucked away behind a new load of parts at the shop. Looks like somewhere around $350.00 including stainless attaching hardware. This attaches to the rear lower structure and has a cut-out to clear the ZF.
 

Mike

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Little Venting

Cool, the one I'm building will have some similar features with a decidedly more aggressive look. Choices are good!
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Little Venting

As time goes by, things change. Opinions change. What was acceptable then, may not be acceptable now. I appreciate the older guys and remembering how it was 40 years back and what was deemed acceptable then but, businesses must evolve to survive and SPF is a business. I don't know where 2161 fits in the production sequence but maybe things have gotten better. There was/is room for it. Looking forward to the next event that brings us all together to shoot the chit and enjoy these cars for what they truly are... awesome!

Every time I look at mine, I giggle like a 12 yr old girl!

2012072801.jpg

Michael,

She is truly a beauty!

Are you coming out for Monterey?

I would love to see her in person.
 

Mike

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Little Venting

Boy, I would like to but didn't plan ahead far enough this year. That's coming up next week or week after right? Would imagine finding a place to sleep at this point would be difficult. I seem to be behind the curve keeping abreast of events where one could hang out with other GT40 owners. What's the next big event where there will be a good showing?
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Little Venting

...When I read of expectations of interior finish and panel gaps, ...They offered the market a replica of a raw, stripped-out, hand-built, race car.........a perceived lack of perfection.

The volume and vitriol over items like a leaking brake cap, a missing lock nut and paint chips has gone way too high. ....You bought a replica of a very limited production, 46 year old design....

Glenn -- Perhaps you might read the whole thread instead of misrepresenting what's been written.

You're just offering the tired old "you bought a race car" argument again; it's been dealt with. The cars are being sold for street use in public and do not have the corresponding safety quality. You and SPF lost the right to that argument when you decided to street license the car.

The complaints are not about panel fit, they are about failing brake systems, broken chassis, unpredictable electrical failures and gasoline fires. So before you trot out "it's an accurate replica so it's not SPF's fault" you should know that the grossest examples are the ones where the factory deviated from the original design and f---d it up (the parking brake, the upper shock mount, the chicken-shit tank crossover; the in-cabin leaking fuel filler hoses) The missing locknut you think is so trivial leads to brake system failure at a completely unpredictable time. The mighty Olthoff did Michael's install and didn't fix that. So much for "catching them all at installation time."

The issues are NOT being routinely fixed by the installers and the factory has made no effort to communicate with end users nor have they done anything else to make sure they are corrected in the field. The issues are not "early in the run teething" problems.


One of these days one of you "paid-for-the-install" owners is going to mow down a row of school children because (eg) your parking brake disintegrated at the wrong time. The ensuing legislative shit-storm will make Toyota's stuck throttle problem look like a birthday party, and you, your installer, Hi-tech and SPF will be named in the lawsuits. Put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la" all you want but it won't make you or your car any safer. A more responsible reaction would be to move out of denial, put down your SPF pennant, research the technical issues and fix your car.
 

Robert S.

GT40s Supporter
Why

I likely know far less than everyone on this whole forum. However, I do know some things though, or sincerely believe I do.

Superformance is a separate LLC, or Corporation that is owned by one individual. No one from the manufacturing plant owns a financial interest in SPF. High-Tech(sp) Automotive is another separate legal entity, outside the U.S., and is owned by another different individual. No one from SPF owns a financial interest in that company.

These two companies exchange commerce: one manufactures cars, and the other imports them into the U.S. Since each of them have huge sums of money invested in their companies, and the operations of those two separate companies are the source of their income, they both have the common interest and desire to make a decent product with a market balanced cost/value factor, to avoid litigation, and to evolve their product and services to the best of their abilities, and strive to assure their companies continue in perpetuity. Anyone armed with any FACTS and proof, rather than merely personal opinions, assumptions, and speculations that can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the above statements are incorrect, this is your time to shine.

SPF may be able to suggest and thereby influence some aspects of the product made by the manufacturer, but not to the extent that some here either understand, or perhaps believe. If there were one other more capable manufacturer or more, somewhere in the world, then competition would, by natural market selection, most likely result in a better product for a given target end-user price. But there’s no guarantee it would because even when there is a desire, there are numerous factors that can compromise the best of intentions: employee morale, employee skills, labor costs, material costs, government regulations, faulty vendor parts, etc. When worldly circumstances are such that there is currently no other viable, capable manufacturer, the lack of competition oft tends to slow product evolution.

The subject GT40s are made with a high degree of emphasis of being as close to the originals as reasonably possible, and some suggest that they are more successful than other similar carmakers are. If the originals did not possess weather/water-tight seals, then should the continuation cars have them? If the continuation cars are made with them, would there be a problem with one of the motor vehicle departments within any of the 50-states that would nit-pick that and say then that the car body, chassis, and features that are supposed to be exactly like the original. This may be more likely when car owners desire to register their car according to the like-kind of car, rather than to its engine, and this could cause registration problems, maybe in California? Anyone who can provide irrefutable proof, and not just a guess, that the above circumstances are not possible; this is your moment and opportunity. Anyone with proof positive that SPF didn’t request weather seals on one or more occasions, but was turned down, here’s another opportunity to show the cards.

Can we just learn from all that was written and known concerning the circumstance that was never hidden and has existed for the past 20-years, that SPF cars do not have such weather seals, and just factor that into our buying decision, and get on with our lives. Or, shall we continue to expend good energy obsessing. Why!

I have heard many statements concerning how some performance shops are experts in receiving and prepping the SPF cars. The car owners espoused how many fine details, fixes or adjustments were made. Strangely though, the same people discover subsequently that their pedals were installed wrong, and mention other important problems too. Is it not the engine and trans installer's job to connect the pedals, adjust the pedals, and to discover pedal problems, or is this also Lance’s, or SPF’s cruel negligence! Of course not!

A great deal of the numerous accusations contained in many of the above posts should have been directed to the appropriate company: carmaker, car seller, and engine/trans and car prep company. To act otherwise is reckless, negligent, and harmful to all the entrepreneurs, and extremely unfair to would-be purchasers.

I would rather see all of this negative energy directed back to helping all to understand what problems to look for, to provide helpful information on how to correct the problem properly, and to supply contact resources of service providers for those not capable of discovering or correcting problems themselves.

Onward! Robert
 

Mike

Lifetime Supporter
A finer example of pontification I have never observed Robert wow lol. I realize the difference between SPF and Hitech. I disagree that SPF is an innocent bystander. I have also posted numerous pictures of most every correction that I have made along with detailed descriptions. In any case, thanks for the dissertation and I value your opinion. I still think people are misinterpreting my position. Please respond directly and on point to the following.

The left side door would not open without making binding contact with the fender. It was not minor contact. It literally would not open without significant binding. There was no simple adjustment that would solve the problem. The installer had misplaced the alignment dowel receiver for the front clip which located the fender too far back and inside. I removed the clip, drilled out the rivots, a realigned the receiver. Now my question is this... This is not a design nuance of a 50 year old car. Should the installer or someone at Hitech taken action prior to the car leaving the factory? Clearly they would have known since the door would have been opened at least a couple times and make a terrible bang when it bound up and then released? That right there is a perfect example of the sort of thing that I find wholly unacceptable no matter what year the car was built or where. And before explanations are offered let me just assure you that the receiver was incorrectly aligned from the get go, the binding most certainly was happening at the factory, and I have pictures. Please justify this bit of shoddy craftsmanship and I did use the term shoddy. Sorry for my own dissertation :)

Feel free to respond but please stay on topic and directly address the question.
 

Robert S.

GT40s Supporter
Follow-up

This note is not meant to be directed at any one person, or group.

Some are sincerely interested in pointing out flaws and failures, in hopes of informing others. I think those types of efforts are always worthy. I would suggest, that those who have no axes to grind, and are not reacting emotionally, and are not fondling their egos, should achieve their goal by writing PMs to actual members, instead of listing these perceived shortfalls on the public forum. This will demonstrate their personal desire to help others in so doing. I'm not suggesting such information should be secret, but some here sadly believe they are writing to a handful or more fellow owners. Actually, at any given moment, there are hundreds more lurkers, followers, and interested spectators than they ever are actual members. They is also potentially a higher percentage of would be buyers, of any brand of can, among that contingency, than there is amongst the members, many of whom are already owners.

Unfortunately, most of us members and or car owners can place the appropriate degree of concern and priority to a damaged rivet, too many rivets, and a malfunctioning parking brake. The whole spectrum of a kit or continuation car is challenging when contemplating a purchase, more so with a new car that with a previously owned one. But any scary type scenarios that tend to dissuade potential purchasers are likely in none of our best interests.

Human nature dictates that bad news not only travels more quickly than the good, it is most often embellished along its journey to the listener or reader.

So, go right ahead, shoot yourself not only in one foot, but both feet, and hobble around, pickin’ your nose, and scratching your backside like Aqualung, and eventually wonder why your car didn’t sell at all when that time came, or why it sold for 10, 20 or $30K less than it should have.

Okay, class is out now, but remember that paper on slander of (personal property) title is due Monday morning.
 

Robert S.

GT40s Supporter
I realize the difference between SPF and Hitech.

The very Name You selected for this thread is: Little Venting - SPF Construction
I contend that SPF is not and was not the constructor of any SPF car ever sold, and will not likely be anytime in the future.

I disagree that SPF is an innocent bystander.

I never said they are innocent, and I'm nowhere near the time when I shall say or agree they are guilty, of anything.

Sincerely, Robert

ps addressing the question? There is no question posed in the thread title.
 

Glenn B.

Lifetime Supporter
Alan,

Don't stop short at mowing down school children to make your point...you should have made described them as disabled oprhans, as well...if you are going to create wild unbelievable scenarios to make points, don't pull up short. Give us your best!

Glenn
 
Thank you Robert. Constructive criticism helps us all, SPF/ Hi Tech bashing does not. Alan, would you recommend an SPF GT40 to a prospective buyer? From your laundry list of faults I can't see how you could. I wouldn't buy an SPF if I only read your posts. Will you be happy if SPF/Hi Tech goes bankrupt? Does that mean we shouldn't criticize SPF/Hi Tech at all? Of course not. But let's be constructive, don't blast the car as a death trap. Many of us are old enough to remember Ralph Nader and the Corvair.
 
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Mike

Lifetime Supporter
So now I've slandered your personal property? Oy Vey...

This thread has degraded into nebulous philosophical debate and silliness. I've had my gripe and readers can reach their own conclusions as to the legitimicy of those gripes. Please feel free to close it thread Rick/Ron.

PS my car will sell over retail value due to the time I've invested making it perfect. I'll share any of the solutions I came up with anyone who is interested... just ask.
 

Mike

Lifetime Supporter
The very Name You selected for this thread is: Little Venting - SPF Construction
I contend that SPF is not and was not the constructor of any SPF car ever sold, and will not likely be anytime in the future.



I never said they are innocent, and I'm nowhere near the time when I shall say or agree they are guilty, of anything.

Sincerely, Robert

ps addressing the question? There is no question posed in the thread title.

That was not the name of the original thread title nor did I change it to or request it changed to. Now I'm just getting annoyed...
 
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