"Made in China"

[Lim]

From someone who has worked in China since 1982, dont be misled or put off by a supposed "made in China" syndrome. The problem is with the purchasor of the chinese made product in as much as they have gone for something cheap. Chinese quality is as good as anywhere , it only needs the purchasor to specify want they want in terms of quality and they will get it. Material cost in China is no cheaper or dearer than anywhere in the world, what is cheaper is labour rates, and that is their advantage.
I could take any body to machine shops and manufacturing plants that are clinically clean like a hospital. You would be amazed at the " made in USA" and 'Made in germany" products that have been "made in China" for 20+ years

I have started a new thread in order not to hijack the Roush engine thread.

For the past 15 years I have visited China yearly. During the past 5 years I have visited various exhibitions to improve my knowledge and also purchase my machinery tools.

3 years ago I visited some factory in China which manufacture parts for GM, FORD, CHRYSLER and ...... When I was at the factory I joking asked....Chinese used cheaper material for production?:lipsrsealed: The General Manager replied NO!.. they supplied what the customer's specified, as they (the manufacturer) can't afford product reject, also quality control is very high.

2 months ago I visited 5 exhibitions in China, some of the exhibitors showed some car parts at the site which they have supplied to Germany, Japan and...

When I am there I make enquiries on pricing for cutting tools. the first question the manufacturer asked, WHAT SORT OF QUALITY AND LOGO DO YOU REQUIRE? He also mentioned that most purchasers go for cheaper price and not quality:stunned:.....
The manufacturer also told me that they supplied products to some big companies in USA and Germany, and consumers paid big dollars for these products that are actually made in China.:veryangry:

I know they do have cheaper quality in China (but mainly for their local market) the good and poor quality is only slightly differently priced in China. YET THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE IN PRICES WHEN YOU PURCHASE IN NZ. I do like European tools, but the price is five to ten times more than the Chinese made (although they may have been made in China anyway):furious:. I have been using Chinese made machinery tools in my garage for about 15 years. Over the last 5 years I have started to replace my daily used tools in the tool room, with ones made in China. They are reliable and cheap:thumbsup: (because I checked the product before purchase)
It does not mean that China cannot produce good quality product, and as we all know so many company have moved their plant or make their product in China. I am sure they have done their homework before..........

But how about our quality control?:shrug:

The quality in China of their middle of the range product is often as good if not better than middle of the range products manufactured locally. It is also true that if you don't check the quality you are getting from locally manufactured product you can also have issues as has been documented from time to time on this site.

The above observations are based on my personal visits to China and speaking to various suppliers and manufacturers for so many years.

LIM

 

[Ron Earp]

I agree with you. I'm involved with outsourcing parts for manufacture and basically any sort of quality you want can be had out of China. You want some cheap machine parts? They are available. You want some expensive billet parts with intricate detail and machining? That is also available.

Yes, there are many cheap things that can be bought out of China. I get some cheap, and seemingly poorly made, tools from Harbour Fright from time to time. One off things like a body dolly or slide hammer - I'm not paying $110 for these from Snap On when a $12 Fright one will do.

But I read remarks and know people that say things like "oh, that is made in China" implying that it has to be cheap and worthless. That simply isn't the case anymore.

The US economy (as well as other countries) has been instrumental in driving the development of world class factories in China. Companies all over the world use these factories to produce a huge variety of goods. Quality can vary but it depends on what the buyer wants. For US folks there is a PBS program that came out around two years about about the factories in China and their relation to the US economy. Very informative.

So if Eldebrock sources some camshafts from China and they are poorly done it is because Eldebrock wanted them inexpensively and didn't want to go with a better, and more expensive, source in China.

Could a US company produce the part just as well? I'm sure they could, but up until six or seven months ago it was hard to get a US machine shop to touch a relatively small job since they were still heavily engaged with other interests. And matching prices? Due to many factors, some controversial, it'd be nigh about impossible to match the prices in many areas of the US.

 

[Garry]

Great article yesterday regarding sourcing from China and Mexico. It seems that Mexico could be the big winner. The Free Trade agreement, less crowded ports of entry, labor that runs $2.35/hr, skilled workforce, and cheaper transportation to the US puts them in a position to compete with anybody. Even the Chinese have noticed and are looking at building plants in Northern Mexico.
As for product quality, everyone on this forum should remember that Ford made 302 blocks in Mexico and they are considerd to be superior to the blocks made elsewhere-more mass in the bottom end. I am sure that the Chinese can produce great products, but with Globalization growing at warp speed there are other countries that can compete as well.
Garry

 

[Dave Wood]

As for product quality, everyone on this forum should remember that Ford made 302 blocks in Mexico and they are considerd to be superior to the blocks made elsewhere-more mass in the bottom end.
Garry

I think that addresses the earlier comments regarding "specs". While they were considered somewhat stronger, they were really cast like ( and probably from the same molds) 289HP blocks. Specs do a bunch to determine the quality product you get, and it has to be thorough. Quality machining of a poor quality piece of steel gets an attractive poor quality tool. Poor machining of a great piece of steel, makes for a strong but limited tool...plus it's a waste of good steel.
I always look closely at any product from another part of the world with an eye for what that country is like. If they are exporting products that many within that country don't own....I look more closely. I think some refinement comes from developing a product within a home market before going international.

 

[Trevor Booth]

Ron,
most of the harbour FRIGHT tools made in China are good value for money. I did some work for the company that makes their air tools , and many other tool companies.
Some comparison endurance testing at WOT was done with "recognised' brands - very suprising results. For the average user of air tools they will never wear them out.

 

[Ron Earp]

Ron,
most of the harbour FRIGHT tools made in China are good value for money. I did some work for the company that makes their air tools , and many other tool companies.
Some comparison endurance testing at WOT was done with "recognised' brands - very suprising results. For the average user of air tools they will never wear them out.

I have some HF air tools that work great. And I bought their $29 electric impact which is an exact copy of the nice Dewalt electric impact I have. HF unit still kicking after three years of hard track use. Brushes are replaceable in the unit, good design for the bucks.

I agree with you. Basically good stuff. I'm just generally there shopping for really cheap inexpensive duplicate items I want for my race trailer.

 

[Jack]

I have purchased many air tools from HF, usually two of each expecting them to wear or break. They are so inexpensive that you could throw them away and get another if needed. After about 5 years, I'm still waiting for them to fail.

 

[John Milmont]

The harbor freight tools are probably cheaper not only because labor is cheap, but because they don't have any development costs as well since they are just copying other companies designs. Also, don't forget that there's very little environmental regulation as well, so that also keeps costs low. If you think Chinese tools are a good deal now, wait until we get a cap and trade/tax system!

The Chinese are hard working people, they don't have any patent laws and the government works hard to makes sure no liberal ideas dilute their system. We also give them our best technology any time we outsource manufacturing to them.

How can we compete?

One product HF has that is really terrible is their flapper sanding disks. Those things just blow apart in about 2 seconds of use! They are nothing like the 3M ones...

 

[Jack]

John, I agree about the flapper disc's. Most of the abrasives from HF are terrible. I don't use them. Got a flyer today, 6" DA sander & pad for $18.99. Guess I'll have to get one just to see...

 

[John Milmont]

I wonder when we are going to get a Chinese made GT40

 

[Randy V]

Sorry guys -

I - for one - don't doubt for one second that Chinese plants can produced very high quality parts.
I also don't doubt that the key reason for domestic manufacturers going to China for product is not for the high quality, but the cheap costs and increased profit.

Do I have some tools and equipment from HF? Yes. Do I think they're on par with tools available from Snap-on, MAC or others that are domestically made? No.

Oh certainly there are some exceptions. Yes - My HF Deadblow hammer will most likely stand up to the best of Snap-on.

Why did I buy these tools? Price. I am no longer making my living with my hands and tools. It's hard to justify spending 50-75% more for some things.
However -- I've managed to cause damage to myself and the cars that I've worked on by having tools break or fit/work poorly. I've drawn the line on some tools and am in the process of replacing some of these HF tools with the quality tools that I should have purchased in the first place.
The HF Tools will go into a special tool-box that will go in the hold on the trailer.
Someone wants to borrow a tool at the track? Look in the box that has the initials NFG on it..

 

[Jack]

Right on Randy! There are tools and there are good tools. Never will a HF or similar hand tool find it's way into my box. Non precision things such as the aforementioned DA sander or dead blow hammers are fine.

 

[Ivan]

to sum up what alot of people are saying....... do your homework and find out before you disregard anything

ooh and from my experience :- britool spanners are ok (there chrome comes off) halfords are very very good (no chrome flakes, tough and good finish)

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

Before China there was Taiwan and in my british motorcycle world one of the biggest suppliers of MC parts is a company called EMGO. They started selling luggage racks for bikes in the sixties and now pretty much reproduce about 90% of the parts on a sixties Triumph Bonneville. Everybody wants "original" british spares but these taiwan made parts are so nice that you will be actually disappointed when you see the "good" original british part next to it.
Like all manufacturing it is about the integrity of the company owner.
If you care about your business and your good name you will produce high quality parts no matter what country your plant is in.
On the other hand if your are a greed oriented business that only cares about the bottom line I am sure that you can also find eager suppliers all over the world.

 

[Cliff Beer]

My company has had a large office (which I had to open and ensure compliance for) in Beijing for some years now and we've had extensive dealings of most every commercial sort in China for that time. I would agree that just about any quality is available in China, including very high quality, as there are very good manufacturing facilities staffed by some very smart people. However, here's a couple themes I have seen play out with uncanny consistency:

1. If you want high quality, you have to be excruciatingly specific about the quality spec. If you leave any detail out/undefined you can be sure you'll get the absolute cheapest/lowest spec on that point. In the US we might generally be able to conclude that if you specified very high quality specifications in sufficient detail in every respect except one or two that you forgot, you'd probably get a high quality result across the board, even on that which you were not detailed, as the supplier would assume the quality spec to be the same (high) level. Not so in China (in my experience). Again, you can be sure you'll get the cheapest/lowest quality on those specification points not spelled out in extensive detail.

2. The level or reliability and trustworthiness we have in the US with regard to stamped specifications is just not the same/equivalent. Example, you'll find cheesy bolts stamped "10.9" or "12.9" that are, in fact, about Grade 2. You'll also find bearings stamped "Timken" or "SKF" that have nothing to do with these two well known and respected suppliers.

3. In regard to "quality" of business dealings, a Chinese contract is essetially just a rough guideline when one party (you) is foreign. And, until the cash exchanges hands, everything is up for renegotiation, including that which is set forth in a signed contract. Once you've paid for something you've lost all leverage in the situation. For that reason, progress payments are a very common practice in our business.

That said, relationships are very important in Chinese business and you can be sure that if you invest in the relationship then you can, and will, lessen the variables here and have greater assurance of getting out of the deal what you expected to get out of it!

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

I had some product manufactured there via a broker.

The BIG problem with China is they have no regard or respect for trademarks, patents or I.P. SEMA even suggested in the trade publication that you not have an entire product produced there by one vendor, you "break it up" and have final assembly done by another company or better yet bring the components in and assemble here. I have seen a distributor I know have product run off his tooling (with his part numper on the back!) offered to his customers via a "broker" here who reps the Chinese industry.

 

[Trevor Booth]

Cliff,
Para 1 you are so correct, its in the detail of what you specify

Para 2 is a big problem solved by specification, however the avaricious are their prey and there will always be "buyer" and a "seller" for poor quality products.

Your last Para as you will have discovered is the single most important thing in doing business in China. There are "reporting methods" which I am sure you are aware of.

 

[roaldin]

While talking about Chinese product, does anyone have any specific information regarding Eagle or Scat crankshafts?
I am having discussions with an engine builder at the moment and he is unhappy to use either crank (or indeed anything from China). He wants to use an Australian made crank that is around 8 times the price.

I am now committed to the Australian crank (it is a thing of beauty) but would very much like to know just how good/bad the Eagle/Scat cranks really are.
I have only ever seen one Eagle crank and to be honest the machining left a bit to be desired, I have never really inspected a Scat crank beyond a cursory look.
There is a fair bit of opinion on the web, I haven't found much that points to genuine problems though.
If Roush really do use Eagle cranks then I'd have to think they aren't too unreliable...

Tim.

 

[Ron Earp]

While talking about Chinese product, does anyone have any specific information regarding Eagle or Scat crankshafts?
I am having discussions with an engine builder at the moment and he is unhappy to use either crank (or indeed anything from China). He wants to use an Australian made crank that is around 8 times the price.

I am now committed to the Australian crank (it is a thing of beauty) but would very much like to know just how good/bad the Eagle/Scat cranks really are.
I have only ever seen one Eagle crank and to be honest the machining left a bit to be desired, I have never really inspected a Scat crank beyond a cursory look.
There is a fair bit of opinion on the web, I haven't found much that points to genuine problems though.
If Roush really do use Eagle cranks then I'd have to think they aren't too unreliable...

Tim.

This is one of the best examples of Chinese products in relation to our interests. I have run across builders that won't touch them, but, you'll find Eagle and Scat cranks in many reputable engine builds.

Personally I feel the cranks are maligned by prejudice in most cases. I'm sure there have been some genuine problems with the cranks in some instances, but the two builders I have won't hesitate to use them and always check them (balance, journals, etc) before use. Roush do use Eagle cranks in some of their motors so some folks who think they are not getting any Chinese products in their engine might need to think again.

I am going to be shopping crank kits for a pending engine build and I'm thinking of using a Scat kit.

 

[Jack]

I have used both SCAT and Eagle cranks in the past on several engines. No problems. Prefer the SCAT, seems to have better machining IMO.