MoTec Engine Management

[Craig White]

[ QUOTE ]
Geez, I ordered my RF with the Motec option, now I'm afraid to plug it in!

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, if anything Motec still rates as one of the best ECUs available. Very capable and very expandable. Just that there is a lot of cheaper competition around now.

Ron, the price difference between AUS & US is one of life's great mysteries. I'm pretty sure it was AU$500 for all advanced features as Motec calls them.

 

Chris L

I have run the Motec software on an old computer. It should work OK. It will certainly tell you if you have had any sensors fail.

Be careful of the urge to fix your new problem by retuning. If it was running OK and it's not now something has changed. The fault may be a sensor or wiring. It will probably not be the ECU so don't blame it before you have checked everything else.

Don't forget the fuel pressure. If that is wrong, everything will get weird. Most EFI books tell you to check your fuel pressure before you even look at anything else. On mine the fuel pressure is 3.5 bar. The fuel pressure should be constant relative to the manifold pressure.

I don't know if your car is equipped with narrow band Lamba sensors. Mine is. If it has narrow band sensors life gets a lot easier if you can get access to a wide band sensor. They are much better for tuning.

Once you get the right equipment and you begin to understand how it works, diagnosing problems is MUCH better than it ever was with carbs.

The only problem is you sometimes have too many options and that gets confusing. I probably have a similar setup to you. Let me know if I can help.

Regards

John

 

[ChrisL]

Thanks all,
The initial problem has been sorted. It turns out that the problem was partly my fault having placed an incorrect spacer behind the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) it managed to move slightly over time. My next mistake was to guess the problem correctly and attempt to fix it by tightening the TPS. Unfortunately, because of the fitment of the incorrect spacer, tightening the TPS only forced it further out of adjustment effectively causing the mixture to run very rich. Once diagnosed, the sensor was re-calibrated (and the throttles re-balanced for good measure) and all was well with the world again. If I'd had my own plug-ins then I may have detected the sensor movement earlier.

 

[Mark Ferrari]

Gidday Chris,
I've got Motec on my 2 bikes. I swap the ECU from the race bike to the road bike and download a different map for each. I just use an old laptop and it's fine. I've got a wide band lambda and use it to fine tune the fuel map at track days. It's pretty easy and fun. I've also got the manual from the motec course - let me know if you want to peruse it or go through some mapping details.
Cheers,
Mark

 

[Chris Duncan]

Nice thread, just as I was going to revive an old ECU thread someone started a new one. Things have changed since the last one so new discussion is good.

Narrowed down the selection to Electromotive, Motec, Autronic, Haltec, Accel DFI, and EFI Technology.

After pricing it was further narrowed to Electromotive, Autronic, Haltec, and Accel DFI which are all in a similar price range. The Motec and EFI tech. being roughly double that price range.

Further discussion with the longtime experts at Kinsler Fuel Injection suggests that the Accel DFI has the most bang for the buck. With Electromotive and Haltec generally having more compatibility/dependability issues than the Accel. The Autronic was eliminated because it doesn't operate in closed loop.

Looking at the free download software the Accel also looks the most advanced as far as it's utilization of the latest windows software. The only thing that bothers me is it only has one ignition output so if you want distributorless ignition it takes another $300 ignition box.

The nicest feature seems to be the ease of setting the initial map to get the thing started. You enter all your engine parameters like displacement, compression ratio, injector size, fuel pressure etc. From forum posts it looks like this gets you started right away. It also has a volumetric efficiency predictor which has settings for the mechanical aspects of the intake and exhaust system like valve size/timing and port dimensions.

The average price is $1650 for a kit with ECU, sensors, flying lead wire harness and narrow band O2. The UEGO linear O2 sensor option is another $950. With the wideband O2 you can precision tune at all rpm/throttle ranges, as opposed to narrow band which only works at part throttle.

According to Kinsler the wideband O2 will correct an imprecise map but the key to maximum performance is a map that's correct in the first place. You get the map close and then datalog the corrections that the O2 makes and set your map to that. Ideal performance happens when the mixture is optimum for every single combustion stroke, and not when you miss a couple of beats because your waiting for the sensor to correct.

It connects with a serial port to a laptop (rec. minimum 350 PII, 64 meg ram) but can adapt the serial cable to USB.

The real clincher for me is the closest distributor is Accel DFI and the guy has a chassis dyno.

Haltech

EFI Technology

Motec

Electromotive

Autronic

Accel DFI

KINSLER FUEL INJECTION

Kinsler has a really nice catalog which also has a lot of info on fuel systems and a comparison chart of some popular programable ECU's.

 

[Gary Gibbs]

I believe that you are incorrect about the Autronic in closed loop. I know it specifically offers a closed loop tuning operation which will actual tune the entire operating range with a wideband sensor as the engine is used. I expect you can put it in the "normal" closed loop mode also, but it has been a while since I look at their stuff to remember.

 

[ChrisL]

Mark,
I'll take you up on that offer, especially the offer to go over some maps. Just let me know when it suits.

PS How do you wedge a motec into a bike???

PPS. You have e-mail

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Gary,

From CLC.pdf found on the Autronic web site:

Closed Loop Control
The SMC and some SM2 models have Closed Loop control (CLC). CLC is used to correct air fuel ratios to maintain Stoichiometric air fuel ratio of 14.7:1 to ensure correct operation of catalytic converter. The CLC has two modes, city and highway. City mode only operates when the engine is no longer in warm up enrichment. The highway mode is optional, and can be selected in the software set up. Highway mode is achieved when the ECU logic determines the engine is in highway mode. The Open Loop air fuel table is used to setup city and highway AF ratios. The CLC will only operate on air fuel ratios Stoichiometric (14.7) or leaner. In city mode it will ignore air fuel ratios leaner than stoichiometric and maintain stoichiometric air fuel ratio.

In example 1 the CLC would operate from 30 to 90% load.
In example 2 the CLC would operate form 30 to 90% load and maintain 14.7 during city mode. In high way mode it would maintain any air fuel ratio less than 14.7, in this case it would be from 30 to 60% load.

Example 1.
.................RPM
.......1000 2000 3000 4000 5000
Load
30.... 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
50.... 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
60.... 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
90.... 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
100... 12.7 12.7 12.7 12.7 12.7
Example 2.
.................RPM
.......1000 2000 3000 4000 5000
Load
30.... 14.7 17.0 17.0 17.0 17.0
50.... 14.7 17.0 17.0 17.0 17.0
60.... 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
90.... 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
100... 12.7 12.7 12.7 12.7 12.7
For the CLC to operate correctly the engine must be first tuned within 1 or 2% of required CLC air fuel ratios.

Setup:
1. Enable Open Loop Table.
2. Enable ECU Internal CLC.
3. Enable Open Loop Lean Highway (If required).
4. Set Gain = 10. (Default value)
5. Set Adapt Rate = 30. (Default value)

You can change the Stoichiometric air fuel ratio from the default of 14.7 to a new value in the “Engine Setup” table.

 

[Chris Duncan]

Sorry if I gave out bad info. The local distributor said the SM2 was not normally in closed loop. Maybe he just does racing vehicles and doesn't want closed loop, I don't know.

Another thing that bothered me about Autronic is I couldn't access their forum without buying the product first, unlike most of the others.

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Kalun,

I am not sure you gave out "bad" information exactly. Notice that the article says "some SM2 systems", so the system you were looking at may very well not have a closed loop functionality.

I just wanted to set the record straight. It could even be that any of the systems we would want to use don't have a closed loop capability: the article doesn't spell out which combinations of feature & functions come with this capability and which ones don't. But then again, it can't be said that Autronic doesn't have a CL capability in general either.

I was unaware of the issue with their forum; it does make one wonder if they have something to hide from prospective purchasers doesn't it?? Then again, if any of you have had any dealings with JetengineDoctor, then you will know how religious the whole ECU/EMS/"call it what you will" business can be. I wouldn't put it past someone like him getting on an open forum for the product he is not selling this week and slam them in the most profane and belligerent manner possible. That, Grade A, walking, talking rectum got kicked off of Corner Carvers and that is saying something. So I can see one individual like him causing a company to "close" their forum.

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Gary Gibbs]

I seem to remember their is a table on the autronic sight (PDF file) that shows the different models of SM2 and what options each had. For example you can not have idle air control and launch control, etc. The forum is only for hard core tuners. For better or worse they do not want non owners asking questions like "What is the difference between xxx and yyy?" "Which is better Motec or Autronic?" I am not sure I agree with this but can understand their point.

 

[Chris Duncan]

Once again a wrench is thrown in the works. Brurrrzzzt kachungggkkk gung-gung-gung BOOM. This seems to coincide merely with the passage of time. You make a decision on a purchase and by the time you've saved the money for it a better option is available. This usually happens just after you've made a commitment to purchase.

After telling the Accel distributor that he's been chosen, Motec USA comes out with a 1/3 price reduction. The M48 has gone from $3,050 to $2,150. According to the local Motec dealer his conjecture is that this is due to pressure on Motec USA to drop prices by dealers due to the lesser priced competition.

I'm definitely waiting on the laptop purchase until the very day it's needed. While shopping for one in a 3 week period the cost dropped from $1,500 to $1,150 for a better unit.

The Motec is obviously more robust than the Accel DFI although the GUI and initial setup doesn't look quite as user friendly. It's DOS based although it opens from windows without a command prompt. Once you're in DOS it's all keyboard input, with no command prompts, which doesn't seem too hard. You do have to come up with an initial start map but it does have some suggested settings.

Cost comparison
(Cost of DIS should be about the same for both systems.)

Motec M48 ECU $2162
unterminated harness $378
WBO2 function $693
WBO2 sensor $190 generic

TOTAL $3423


Accel DFI ECU kit $1700 includes unterminated harness
WBO2 function $950 includes sensor

TOTAL $2650

So the Motec is roughly $800.00 more initially and it's sort of vague as to what additional features might be optional and or necessary. It looks like a speed sensor input is optional and for sure an upgrade kit is extra, both these are included with the Accel. The Motec is more powerful with 32 bit processor as opposed to 2x8 bit on the Accel and the Motec has about 3 times the mapping points.

synopsis

Motec,
more powerful,
higher construction standard,
more (optional) features,
more expensive, including probable hidden costs,
harder setup.

Accel,
less powerful (but adequate for application),
less expensive,
more standard features,
less hidden costs,
easier initial setup.

 

[Mark Worthington]

Kalun, my understanding is that Motec is introducing a successor to the M48 and that their new Windows-based software simply blows away the DOS version...lets you set up a TFT display as an instrument panel, etc. I expect that's also why the price is coming down.

 

[Robert Logan]

Et all;

Firstly let me state that Richard Bendell the BOSS of MoTeC is a freind of mine. This is because of the help that he and his staff gave me from day one with my car. The MoTeC system that we used to get the car through emmisssions here in Australia had to have special software written to pass the ADR requirements and this was done without question and charge as have countless hours on his personal dynos.

Richard and the rest of the guys at MoTeC are just first class people who care about our industry. They have helped me greatly with engine management systems but it is with just business acurman that I realy thank Richard for his guidance as a mentor.

Regarding the costs of the system in the US, all I can say is that the prices in the US are set in the US and not in Australia. In support of their product, I believe that they are second to NONE and that if this was not the case they would not be the desired EMS or Data Logger / Dash for as many Original Manufacturers such as Porsche and countless race teams. They are more expensive but in the over 10 years that I have used their products they have always remembered that I am a customer first and have always been there for me. This level of support and the certinity that they will answer the phone EVERY DAY because they are still in business is very reasuring to me.

As a parting point , they are not putting a gun against your head and FORCING us all to buy. They are puting their system on the market place and putting what they think is a reasonable price on that product. If you do not want to buy it you just simply have to say NO !!!!

For those who want a Toyota / Suzuki pay for that car. For those who want a Porsche / Ferrari / Ford GT than pay the price. I tried THREE systems before I used a MoTeC and I have never used a different product since then and I would not recommend another product. I still have the Wolfe system that Hershal tried to get to work on his Roaring Forties GT40. He returned it to me for a MoTeC and the Wolfe still gathers dust in my office.

I believe that the first four cars at this years Daytona race all had MoTeC systems. Your race guys KNOW what is best and what the best costs.

MoTeC sales in the US grew by a staggering 30% plus last year (I believe) and the cost of training the technical staff required to support the BEST SYSTEM is not cheap and I assure you that the support that "kit car builders" demand is much greater than the support "race teams" need. I believe that you would get HUGE value for money with the purchase of a MoTeC as I have.

Best wishes to you all,

Robert