MoTec Engine Management

[Peter Delaney]

Oh, and the "Virtual Dash" on the Autronic s/w is amazing - just drag almost any engine parameter onto the dash, specify whether you want an analog or digital readout, change the range to suit, & you can see everything you need on one screen !

Me, getting commission from Autronic - I wish !!!

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

[Lynn Larsen]

JP,

Motec field reps have very brown noses in the US as well, but it is a green tint of brown, if you know what I mean. They do have good support, but only for the top of their market which is only the top of the overall market. The other day at VIR, I was visiting in the Crawford pits, when the Crawford's daughter (engaged to Chris Dyson) came running through, yelling, "where is the Motec guy? Anyone seen the Motec guy?" I would have assumed one rep per team, but I guess they were stretched a bit thin. But he was looking very cheecky in his starched and pressed Motec shirt and equally natty pressed trousers: like something right out of GQ. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that he didn't get HIS hands dirty!

Forever is a long time. I wouldn't wager the kid's milk money on that one!

Regards,
Lynn

 

[ChrisL]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you say 750 doublepumper holley? Sorry I couldn't resist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Howard,
Yes it is tempting, but "emissions" is the operative word. Carbs just won't cut it any more. Also, I've never shyed away from something just because I couldn't do it. Its not rocket science at the end of the day.

PS. if you think that tech support is hard to come by for electronic fuel injection, you should try getting support for mechanical fuel injection. The mere mention usually sends mechanics scurrying away in all directions, and yes I did have to deal with a mechanical unit in the past... with six separate throttle bodies no less (Triumph TR6). It's amazing what you can learn from lots of trial and error.

 

[Ron Earp]

[ QUOTE ]
r (engaged to Chris Dyson) came running through, yelling, "where is the Motec guy? Anyone seen the Motec guy?"

[/ QUOTE ]

And therein lies the problem.

If you need a Motec guy everytime you need to solve a problem, no matter how big or small, then something is wrong with the product - IMHO. E tuning cars is not rocket science, as pointed out, and if the system is well-designed with a good interface then it can be done by anyone with a understanding of the system and tuning parameters.

Obviously, something like the ECU might have gone out in the above case requiring an immeidate replacement. But, you get the point. I've heard lots of stories of owners not being able to tune their own cars with a Motec and having to fly in Motec people to do it for them - expensive and not necessary with other systems.

Am I anti-Motec? Not really. Just had it with seeing my buddy Mike get bent over the barrel repeatedly trying to get his car running. If he'd used, oh, just about any other system such as Wolf, Electromotive, Edelbrock, etc. or even a good old carb he'd be driving around.

 

[Gary Gibbs]

The same arguments could have been made about IBM in the 1980's and the Pc market. They always produced a top quality product and had great service, but in the end they faced rough times in the PC marketplace. Now look at the competition.

 

[Ian K]

[ QUOTE ]
The same arguments could have been made about IBM in the 1980's and the Pc market. They always produced a top quality product and had great service, but in the end they faced rough times in the PC marketplace. Now look at the competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

What killed IBM in that arena was licensing out the technology
for pocket change and a very liberal licensing scheme.
Between Microsoft ruling the world (IBM's OS/2 is a much
better product on its own, but has no app support to speak
of) and Intel's dirt cheap processors and a bazillion 3rd
party hardware companies, IBM got swept out of the market.

I don't think MoTeC will do the same.

Ian

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi all - me again

Just spent a day over at a fellow enthusiasts place having a check over his Ultima Can-am - Very nice... M48Pro - 6.3L Chevy - Kinsler TBs - Dart heads = 600+BHP Hmmmmm

Now, getting back to above remarks - Lynn - I was impressed with what the guys on the DIY site are up to - mainly because I like their dedication to working out 'how it all works' + I like electronics - especially DIY electronics. I am not saying that I would prefer their ECU to Motec - but I do like the idea of 'playing about' with an ECU that is being 'group advanced' by a number of die hard petrol heads.

I am not sure why people have too many problems getting going with Motec either. I purchased an ECU from Frazier - read the user manual (twice, or probably more!) looked at the wiring schematics, then decided how to install it. I wired all the loom connections to terminal strips to allow easy probing at a later date for diagnosis of any problems we may encounter + wired all the engine connections, i.e. injectors, sensors etc etc through two circular military type multipole bulkhead connectors. This then leaves an 'umbillical cord' type loom connection from engine to bulkhead so that if we need to pull the engine out, two-half-twists and the only connections left are alternator and starter, making a much quicker installation.

We modified a distributor, cutting the top off and adding a hall effect pick up for sync pulses as engine runs sequential injection + individual coils. Loaded a Motec supplied 'base-map', primed, pressed the start button and away she went - first time, no problems. Roy nearly fell over with the surprise of it actually working, especially so easily. Sure that was only the starting point, we then had to get timing correct, main map, accel enrichments, cold start + warm up etc - but it all fell good - bit by bit.

Now, from cold, ignition on, depress loud pedal fully twice, (which momentarily batch fires all injectors once 89% throttle is reached) to wet the manifold. Remove foot from loud pedal and press starter button. Engine fires from cold normally within 1-2 secs and idles just fine.

From hot - ignition on - press start button - its that easy!

I love injection systems!! now where can we fit a couple of Garrett T035s??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Another plus point for (any) EFI system is if you are lucky to have several vehicles, you would only be able to drive one at a time so the ECU could in fact be shared, and programmed / installed prior to using vehicle. As they only take a couple of mins to reprogram, its not as daft as it sounds.

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Ian,

You are talking about the first time we screwed up with MS-DOS. Yeah that was a biggie: IBM didn't think PCs would go anywhere because of the same elitest attitude that I have ranted about with their mainframes.

We were selling PCs retail though, right up to just a few short years ago: the Aptiva line. The only way to get an Intel type box from IBM today is a corporage purchase of what is now called the xSeries of systems, then there are the pSeries which are AIX unix, the iSeries which are AS400 systems and the zSeries which are the main frames. Physically, you can barely tell the difference between p, i and z anymore. There is a new series coming out based on Linux now, as well. It will be called an eServer. It has many, many advantages over an Intel box and will be much easier to manage than the mainstream Unix systems, but will give up only a vary few capabilities, like dynamic reallocation of resources between virtual machines (also called LPARs to those of you familiar with mainframe parlance).

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Paul,

I agree with you from start to finish. I think the issue is just fear of the unknown and being overwhelmed with were to start with this totally foriegn concept of computer control. Almost to a person, once they sit down and cogitate on it and play with it a little, they end up saying, "damn, it wasn't that hard!" A short time later they end up saying, "I'll never go back!"

As with all things connected with computers, the up front effort that you go through is rewarded with years of profit from that small (in hindsight)investment. It is really cool when it fires right up.

I have recounted how I had issues when I implemented my chassis harness -> computer harness interface. I had it all drawn out, but when I drew out my connectors and said yellow to pin 1, I didn't say with respect to the chassis or to the engine. Having wired one side on the car (chassis) and one side (computer) in the living room while watching TV, I of course messed up. So, I had one side of one of the two 4 pin connectors backwards (lucked up and wired the other right.) It took me 30 minutes to figure out what I did and 10 to set it right. Then, Varooom and I got chill bumps.

What made it take me so long to figure out was that I accidently got 12V on one of the pins that needed it, but it was supposed to drop as soon as the engine fired. The engine would fire, make about two rpms and die. If it hadn't run at all, I would have immediately looked at these two connectors, but since it ran a little, I had to check out the other basic stuff first: you know, fuel and spark

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Ron Earp]

[ QUOTE ]
IBM didn't think PCs would go anywhere because of the same elitest attitude that I have ranted about with their mainframes.

We were selling PCs retail though, right up to just a few short years ago: the Aptiva line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought IBM laptops were good, but, since I purchased a new X40 it has been nothing but trouble crashing 3 times since June. Last time destroyed the hard drive which I had to send to drive recovery. IBM cares not.

In fact, when I told them that I was evaluating IBMs to package with our units, around 45 computers a year, and then told them we'd never buy an other IBM I was told "I'm sorry to hear that. Anything else we can do for you?" Honest truth.

Elitest attitude - gets you in trouble all the time and some of what I've seen with a particular engine management company. "We know we're the best, we have an attitude problem, but you'll deal with it."

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Ron,

You're right, I didn't think about the laptops. I guess you can still buy them retail.

Who were you talking to about the laptops? Was it IBM.com?
That attitude sucks and somebody needs their weenie wacked for that. Unbelievable!

I have real good luck with the ones I have had; except for the drive crash on the T30 but that was the fault of airline security when the line filled up and something had to give. It was the tub with my laptop that swung sideways and, in turn, slung my laptop through the air and I watched as it bounced along 3 or 4 times. It did OK for a while, but finally crashed.

I am not terribly well connected to the systems part of IBM hardware; I know more of the storage (tape and disk) people being with storage software. But, I'll see what I can find out about your X40 and am, sure as hell, going to find out about the salesman you talked to. Please let me know what route you were using to access IBM and who you were talking to if you know.

Doesn't matter if it is computers or EMS systems or stereos or rib eye steaks, you don't have to deal with it. You can go somewhere that understands fair play and customer service!

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Ron Earp]

X40, brand new, bought off their website. Been to the shop four times because IT Exchange, their repair shop, knows be by name. IBM only has record of having it twice. But, twice in three months is too much, much less the four times in reality.

My tech at IT Exchange said he's never seen anything like it and pushed IBM to replace it. No dice. Net result is I don't trust it and while we were trying to get away from Dell and their laptops, we'll stick with them. We do purchase 40-60 a year but they will not be IBMs since we tried that one as a test pig.

If there is anything you can do it'd be greatly appreciated, but, I imagine the big corporate giant is hard to move. It is under my name and BMG LABTECH Inc.

Hell, mine crashed when I got back from lunch one day - no shocks ever! Went and ate, came back, laptop locked up. No boot, nasty disk noise. Had to pay $1000 to get the data recovered because it was some critical mess I was many days into with no backup.

 

[Ian K]

[ QUOTE ]
Ian,

You are talking about the first time we screwed up with MS-DOS. Yeah that was a biggie: IBM didn't think PCs would go anywhere because of the same elitest attitude that I have ranted about with their mainframes.

We were selling PCs retail though, right up to just a few short years ago: the Aptiva line. The only way to get an Intel type box from IBM today is a corporage purchase of what is now called the xSeries of systems, then there are the pSeries which are AIX unix, the iSeries which are AS400 systems and the zSeries which are the main frames. Physically, you can barely tell the difference between p, i and z anymore. There is a new series coming out based on Linux now, as well. It will be called an eServer. It has many, many advantages over an Intel box and will be much easier to manage than the mainstream Unix systems, but will give up only a vary few capabilities, like dynamic reallocation of resources between virtual machines (also called LPARs to those of you familiar with mainframe parlance).

Regards,
Lynn

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I know the story well. We have IBM guys in residence
where I work (we have one of the big scientific SP clusters).
My point was that IBM could not compete against the cheaper
Wintel boxes due to the licensing blunder they made (which
allowed Intel to sub-license their technology out cheap).
Hence, IBM wisely got out of that market (and they may not be
alone - HP and Dell have considered similar moves, concentrating
on corporate, government, and education contracts - seeing
how badly Gateway has stumbled). Even Sony isn't doing so
great in the home PC market. Interestingly though (and actually
somewhat related to the topic of this thread), IBM, Sony, HP,
and Dell are doing well in the consumer laptop market.

Ian

 

[Ian K]

Yeah, we've tried many brands. And we work ours hard too.
We've given up on Thinkpads, and HP/Compaq, and Dell. The main
problem for us was we install Linux - all 3 say they will
support it - but the fine print is if we change ANYTHING, they
won't lift a finger. Plus, we had a T series arrive with a
bad motherboard, and it took forever to get it resolved.

Sony, however, has been fairly easy to deal with. We've only
had one problem (very reccently) and we decided to not repair
the machine. Our new VAIO S170s scream though, and we've gotten
many of the built in features working under Linux. So that's
a victory.

Ian

 

[Ian K]

[ QUOTE ]
If there is anything you can do it'd be greatly appreciated, but, I imagine the big corporate giant is hard to move.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the halls of IBM in Texas and NY jump when our
Systems Lead threatens to show up in person. We've called
it "Geothermal "Nick"lear War". One of our in house IBM
guys constantly tries to tell him "Nick, you don't need to
go." and then laughs at how people start to scurry to fix the
problem.

Just last month we had 20 techs here for 3 weeks gratis to
figure out a communication issue.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

After reading all above and understanding, at least 10% of it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif, I am pleased that I settled on an Autronic
system. It seems that in the U.S. the management mind set of Motec is letting down a good product. IMHO. A good rule of thumb in business is "most of the bottlenecks start at the top of the bottle". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Craig White]

On Cobra built last year, used Autronic SM2. Really happy with it, no regrets.

Seriously looked at buying Motec M800. Watch for hidden costs, the sneakest was that in brochure they made features like traction control, boost control, launch control look like standard features, but you had to pay an extra $500AU for an extras package that included them. Mind you they list uprades/extras and it's not there. Only found that out when going to actually put down cash for M800, well that was straw that broke the camels back. We shopped elsewhere. I actually rang Motec and complained, got passed around to a few people and all denied the brochure was wrong. Hopefully Motec now mark these as optional or list them at bottom of brochure as optional package. Actually I bet they haven't.

In Aus plenty of good ECU's around now. EMS have released a new ECU that I've heard is every good. Autronic are still very good value. More competition the better.

 

[Ron Earp]

$500 AU? What a bargain!!!!!!

You'd think the price for the options in the US would be equal with exchange rate taken into account. Wrong. You can basically double them in AU, and that translates directly into USD. I think the traction control module enabled was $950 when Mike inquired about it in the US.

Ron

 

Geez, I ordered my RF with the Motec option, now I'm afraid to plug it in!

 

[Ron Earp]

You're okay Pat, Robert and Hershal will take care of you. But folks like Mike that tried to save some dough and get the ECUs from overseas WITHOUT going through a dealer get the shaft and that shouldn't happen. The dang thing shouldn't cost $3000 AU and $5000 USD.

Paul, Robert's RF looms have mil spec connectors wired in with the EFI Motec systems from the factory - big green connectors that POSITIVELY lock together. He does wiring right, that is for sure. Unfortunately, being a stoneage (for the GT40, not for other cars) carb fellow I did not use any of the ones supplied. Still, I have them, Robert does a nice job.