MoTec Engine Management

[ChrisL]

I have this idea that I’d like to delve further into my engine management system. Initially I would just do some diagnostics and later as I begin to understand its detail, actually build my own maps.

This is a new area for me so I’d like to avoid re-inventing the wheel. Does anyone have any advice on where to start and which pit-falls to avoid?

Also, I have been told that the MoTec software will run on almost any old hack of a computer, so I plan to buy a second-hand sub $300 notebook to dedicate to the work-shop and the race track. Can anyone foresee a problem with this?

 

[Peter Delaney]

I'm not sure whether its true, but I heard that there is some sort of "lock" on the Motec s/w which lets you have a few tries at fiddling, then shuts you out.

Anyone know if there is any truth to this ?

Chris, I am in a similar position to you - on the steep bit of the learning curve. I have managed to save the calibration file (Autronic) & am now trying to understand all (some) of the parameters - its not easy - its inherently complicated, & the ECU vendors seem to want to keep us end-users in the dark !

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Chris/Peter

Todays aftermarket ECUs generally lend themselves to being accessed very easily, with just a simple laptop.

I have tuned ACCEL / ELECTROMOTIVE and MOTEC thus far with a little experience with Weber Marelli too and IMHO, the Motec is by far the easiest to understand and configure considering the versatility of the units.

We use an M48Pro on Roy's GTD40, with sequential injector control, together with 8 indiviual coils for ignition.

To access the ECU, you just connect a serial lead from your PC/Laptop (LT) to the appropriate pins on ECU (or loom connector if fitted) and power the ECU on. Then, when you run the Motec software on your LT it, asks what version software you want to use and then connects to the ECU.

From the opening menu, you can access all the sub menus, each covering a certain feature, eg ignition, sensors, fuel map etc etc but I would always suggest you firstly backup the ECU contents to your LT and then transfer this file to another media format, eg CD or Floppy to store somewhere safe. That way, if you 'lose your way' when tuning/adjusting (it can happen - especially if a sensor is faulty!), you can easily get back to where you started!.

ONE MAJOR POINT TO CONSIDER BEFORE YOU START!!!!!
If your ECU has been correctly tuned on a dyno, at all load conditions, there is often little you may be able to gain in adjusting anything - HOWEVER, if you are at all unsure about what you are doing - LEAVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.... if not there is always a chance you could cause damage to your engine, especially if you allow the engine to run lean on load or detonate for any length of time. Although not generally applicable to 40s, a super/turbocharged is especially at danger from detonation when on boost. You have been warned!

Having said that - I still believe that anyone with a basic undertanding of how to use a PC should be able to view the data within the Motec and get a better feel for 'how it all works'.

Re the 'lock' on a Motec ECU, there is one available that stops unauthorised access, but I have never seen it enabled, or enabled it myself. You do however need to have the correct version of software on your LT to match the ECU version and be able to initiate communication. All the software is freely available from the Motec website as downloads, as is a considerable amount of other data.

Another note, Motec ECUs generally come with a time limited 'wide band' lambda function that gives you approx 4 or 6 hours of wide-band tuning (cannot remember exactly how long), after that you'll need to pay for the enabling code (£500?) or do I as I did and purchase their 'Pro Wideband Lambda Meter' which will give full time wide-band tuning facilities to any suitably Motec equipped vehicle.

One final thought - When I first installed and set up the ACCEL DFI system Roy purchased for his last GTD, in no time we had improved economy (whats that?), improved performance and eliminated a 'lumpy area' around 2500rpm that he had not been able to resolve with carb setups he had previously tried. A good reason for switching to Injection if ever I heard one.....

Have fun...

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Chris,

A little info on the engine that you want to do this management system diddling with, please sir. While there isn't too much difference between managing an EFI vs Carbed engine in general, there is a lot of difference in the specific implementation.

That said, living in Australia you are in the middle of engine management's silicone valley; at least from my point of view.

Tangential diatribe; skip down if not interested.
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Honestly, I just don't get this either. If you do a search on Google for engine management, the majority of the aftermarket stand-alone systems are from down under. I used to think that the reason for this was that Australia still had a wide open, non-limiting, adventurous climate for things automotive. With the number of posters here that are from there, that myth (in my mind anyway) has been busted. If anything, it sounds as though your automotive and environmental laws are even more restrictive than here in the US. It just dawned on me that this may be the very reason for the plethora of EMSs down there: you all have had to develop management systems to allow your Hot Rods (in the most generic sense possible) to meet the stringent requirements of your emissions laws. This epiphany would require that you be allowed to do this for road cars though. Here in the US, there is a built in protection for auto manufacturers in the form of emissions laws that don't allow us much latitude in departing from the hardware systems that automakers provide on their mass market cars. The best we can do is to modify the operation of those systems in the least detectable manner possible. This is a very general statement whose generality renders it invalid as the letters appear on the screen because the laws we have to conform to are wildly different from state to state.
------------------------------------------------------------

Autronic is one, from the many Australian systems, that has caught my eye. One of the main things I look at in a system is the number of inputs it allows: a combination of predefined and user definable. Being concerned with EFI systems, the ability to factor in a mass airflow signal is important to me because I am a firm believer in the superiority of mass airflow vs speed/density systems. Being a computer guy also, I am totally enamored with the self adaptive/adjusting nature of such a system. This feature allows the EMS to act more like an analog controller for an engine which is, after all, an analog system. The flexibility that a mass air system allows in terms of hardware systems is also a huge differentiator between it and speed/density.

The other factor is the granularity available to define ignition and/or fuel maps. To my way of thinking, I can take a system that allows mapping at rpm levels in the hundreds and simulate a system that uses a thousands rpm scale (for simplicity.) BUT, I cannot take a low granularity system and go the other way with it. Moving from less granular is also a good approach to take for a nubee EMS programmer: once you have set maps with control values at say 1000 rpm increments that work, you can then tweak the maps to a more granular level and feel fairly assured you aren't going to take your engine off into a state that will be detrimental to its health.

I have chosen a slow (read more economical) approach to what I plan to do, so I can't provide specifics on the Motec. I am going to, initially anyway, use the piggy back controller method on the mass produced EEC-IV system from Ford to cut my teeth on. As noted in the tangential diatribe above, this is the path that is more readily available to us in the US which carries a somewhat reasonable cost. One departure, that is becoming less and less rare, is that I will also employ a wide band oxygen sensor to provide feed back on my attempts to tune the maps. Once I have successfully achieved an acceptable level performance this way, I am sure I will feel restricted by the inputs, algorithms and outputs available for me to manipulate with the piggyback system. At this point I will explore full stand alone systems that allow me more complete control and leave the relative safety of the restricted environment.

Sorry for the long post,
Lynn

Email or PM me if you would like to discuss this area more. It is one area that I, obviously, have a keen interest in.

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Chris,

Sorry I forgot to answer some of your questions in all of that verbage above.

In terms of you laptop idea: yes absolutley, most of these systems don't require a bleeding edge computer. I bought an IBM T20 as my "car computer." I would try to limit my search to the more rugged lap tops though. In addition to the ThinkPads, the Panasonic Toughbook is one of the hardiest laptops out there.

As an aside, I made the LT purchase more palitable to my comptoller (bless her heart) by making sure it had the ability to play DVDs for the kids on trips. I also put a package of games on it, as well as, a GPS "NeverLost" type system. None of these were very expensive and it makes the computer purchase much more attractive and functional where the rest of the family is concerned, if this is a consideration for you.

In terms of diagnostics, you must have datalogging! Many of the piggyback systems I looked at did not have this. If you employ a separate wide band oxygen system, it is so much more effective if the two systems can be intergrated in terms of the datalogging. Done this way, I believe, you can reduce the number of expensive dyno runs needed. Indeed, if you are careful and methodical enough, a single dyno run to verify your tune could suffice.

Motec has nice stuff, without a doubt, and it works very well. But, they are also very mercinary in their pricing schemes, IMHO. I think that, with a little sweat equity, one can arrive at the same results at a MUCH lower investment than would be the case with a Motec system with all the bells and whistles. My personal position on Motec is that they are made for people with more money than sense or the time/inclination to really learn and understand the nuiances of EMS (read-they want to take the easy way and can afford it).

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Lynn -

Some interesting points you have raised there. - Firstly, I use an old Dell XP laptop, has a cd and floppy and as it's only a Pentium 1 (90Mhz) - the battery lasts very well, despite being 5yrs+ old (unusual these days). It is also reasonably small - something that needs to be considered if you are to do any realtime 'on-road' (or track) tuning from the passenger seat whilst someone else drives. It is also cheap - you can probably pick one up now for £100 with no operating system. It is also therefore, almost, (not quite) expendable - something to consider as I know of a fellow club member who had his laptop nicked from his support vehicle whilst we were at Goodwood motor cct!! - a place we always considered 'safe'..

I have a bakground in computing and am well aware that the Panasonic 'Tough-Book' are quite well ruggedised. They are also however - stupidly priced, buggers to get spare parts for (read expensive to repair) and all the ones we saw (lots!) generally had problems with their serial ports - just the port you want to use.. So I would steer well clear. - What you have to remember is that a laptop is still a fragile item - treat it like its worth £3000 and it will last the course - bash it about and it doesnt matter how well its made - it ain't gonna last!.

I also think that trying to get a dual purpose laptop does not work too well - a unit with a display worth watching DVDs on is unlikely to fit too well on your lap in front of a 40 dash, or below the windscreenfor that matter, when road testing. (Just my thoughts...)

Re - the "Motec are made for people with more money than sense or the time/inclination to really learn and understand the nuiances of EMS (read-they want to take the easy way and can afford it)." - Blimey! thats a mighty humble opinion.

I am not made of money, I do not even have a 40, but the investment I made in the system fitted to Roys car I feel is well worth the money. If you consider that the ECU is an item that is unlikely to be changed, having one as versatile as possible is I would suggest quite important. You may (nay will) no doubt change your engine specification over the years and all the way through you can keep your trusty ECU so the more reliable the better. With that in mind - some of the work I have done with a different ECU (not Motec or ACCEL) proved quite problematic with the ECU having to be returned to the States to be repaired as it had been supplied faulty. Prior to me sending it back, I did have a quick look inside just for interests sake and was somewhat amazed to find that it had obviously been 'previously' worked on as one of the interface components had been reworked badly with a soldering iron when a specialised reflow technique should have been used. The result was a very poor repair, both dry and blobby joints and no re-sealing had been applied to protect the circuit from the elements. Considering it came directly from a factory this I consider very poor - and on receipt - they then initially informed me that 'all their extensive tests' showed no problems whatsoever (including a visual inspection) Hmmmmm - I did not want to let then know that I had already looked inside for warranty reasons and eventually they did admit they had found a fault and sent it back 'repaired'. They then wanted to charge some £200+ for this service but as I argued that it had 'never' worked - they eventually waived the charge, although we were hit with some £70 in import tax as they had not declared it as repaired. (They did not offer to replace it though!) On another note - the same company also said 'oh we've ditched our supplier of that part as they were failing all the time' - when I reported a failing crank trigger - (intermittant) - very helpful - not!

Sorry - I seem to have ranted and raved a bit there, but I do feel you get what you pay for - I have also had a look inside the Motec unit and the quality of the unit we have looks fine.

I did think I might have a problem with the ECU at one point and as a precaution, dropped in a spare unit I have that is due to be shortly fitted to Daves Parker's GTD R42 - a quick program load from LT and I was running again. I then posted our unit to Motec UK, where they tested it - confirmed all was ok and also upgraded the firmware + returned by courier (all in 3 working days) - Free of charge. They have always been very helpful and responsive to enquiries and have even evaluated / interpreted downloaded data files from the Motec of specific on track data - again free of charge. (and before you ask - no I am not on commission)

So - getting back to the 'more money than sense or the time/inclination to really learn and understand' bit - The Motec system does not make your car 'plug and play' so there is no 'take the easy way' as is suggested. If you are into DIY and who building a 40 isn't?, there is plenty to read, do and learn in the process. This I consider to be a major part of the fun to be had when developing a 40 or any engine management system for that matter.

Finally - when I fitted the ECU to Roy's car, I employed all the previous existing sensors, you are not tied to a specific sensor and the Motec software is pre-calibrated for many of the sensors currently used by manufacturers - the only cost really was ECU and connectors as I made all new looms.

So in conclusion - yes I am biased toward Motec because having had experience of several other mfrs - I feel Motec can be given the best all round reccommendation. Buy right and you will only buy ONCE!! (note also that Robert's RFs are factory equipped with Motec if specifiying injection - Quality!)

ps - Lynn - When tuning older/simpler Weber Marelli units (Cosworth Turbo) you have to get down to HEX coding and locate the actual fuelling/ignition maps within a 16K file - a right pain in the ar$e! and not something I would like to go back to. IMHO you learn more useful tuning theory with a modern tuning solution - IMHO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif - no offense intended.

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Paul,

Hex level coding, no kidding OUCH! Do remember we have a very elitest bunch running things here in the US for Motec and, from what I have heard from down under, they they impose a handsome premium in the states. They also are almost Bond (007) like in keeping up with where units came from. If you have an issue with your system and they find out it didn't come through them, and they WILL find out, they'll tell you to go pound sand up your arse.

My very first statement was that Motec makes fine hardware and it works fine as well. There is absolutely no doubt about their quality. But stuff like giving you limited O2 sensor tuning and then you 'gotta pay IS like blackmail to me, especially when the US prices are considered. I know I have a bee in my bonnet about the Motec guys, but it is well deserved. They only want to walk around the big races with the deep pocket people here in the US and the every day, working guy be damned. Hence my comment about being able to achieve the same results at more reasonable costs. Mark my words, if they keep this attitude they'll end up going down the same road that Data General, SCO Unix and quite a number of other computing market vendors did when they couldn't break out of their elitest attitudes as computing hardware, especially, became more of a commodity. Given the commodity nature of the components that go into an engine management system, there is not excuse for charging outlandish prices for systems. The software has been around for years so there is little if any R&D cost there. The software architecture is very low level and simple as well even considering windows GUI interfaces. You can get this stuff coded in the Baltics, India, Russia and a number of other places for pennies. Sometimes you don't get half of what you pay for. High price MAY indicate good quality, but consider the difference between a 7 dollar bottle of grocery store wine and a 50 dollar bottle of fine wine, a very marked increase in quality. But, now compare that 50 dollar bottle of wine to a $250+ bottle: very little if any difference in the wine, but it has the label that says prestige and "ain't I hot shit cause I can buy a $250 dollar bottle of wine." Another example: a guy was selling an old table, very nice table, but an old table. Nobody would buy it! He tripled the price and said "I am selling an Antique table." Sold the next day. Did the person who bought it get what they paid for? Well, sort of, because now they can show off their antique table that they paid several thousand dollars for. I'll get down off my soap box now as I think I have made my point: I am not buying the "you get what you pay for" argument anymore - you've got to look deeper than that.

I agree about the cost of tough-books, that is why I have an IBM. I work for IBM but bought the LT on eBay . But I have used Thinkpads for 8 years now and think they are very good systems. Some of the older Aptiva systems were not better than any other average desktop out there, but carried a premium price. That is why we are no longer in the retail desktop business: we started making very good wintel boxes that didn't compete well with most of the offerings at places like Circuit City and Best Buy. (So I do know there is a difference in quality, I just don't think cost is directly proportional to quaility all of the time, by a long shot.)

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi again

Units I have purchased have come through Frasier, of Mackellar Racing who is a bit of a guru in Motec terms. He too has been extremely helpful, pointing out possible pitfalls and has always responded to my calls - although it seems he travels a lot as I always seem to catch him in an airport departure lounge... (sorry Frasier!)

Point taken re USA pricing - I have heard that they are heavily loaded there in comparison to say AUS. Seems like a good reason to visit AUS alone....plus I'm sure Robert is always up for 'guided tours'.

Motec are somewhat difficult on their website re sensor type though - they use priamrily Bosch parts for sensors/support but only show part of the original 10 digit number on their sites/literature. This is presumably so they can make extra bubble on the sale of support components - naughty naughty!

Thankfully - most of the Bosch pn info you may require is available elsewhere on the web.(so you might as well come clean on that one Motec!)

All that being said - I am still very happy with the level of service I have received over here and am sure that whatever direction Chris takes with his ECU / engine management, there are sure to be a bunch of people on this forum alone only too willing to give him as much support and encouragement he could ever wish for... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Have fun!

 

[Ron Earp]

Motec is just too high for what you get, IMHO. I have helped tune one car with the system and while it has good control and worked well, the user interface, again IMHO, was horrible and not up to snuff for the expense of the ECU. Yep, the software will run on any old hack computer but that is because the interface is so crappy it doesn't require a modern OS, which would require a modern computer. Again, my opinion, but I think anything as expensive as a Motec ought to have world class Windows driven software that is better than offerings from injection systems that are 1/5 the price.

The US pricing is nothing short of robbery. The pricing for the same ECU should be the same throughout the world, with exchange rates taken into account. But, it is not. In the US the damn things are very expensive when compared to other countries and when you try to purchase a unit in Australia then need support for it, forget it. Pounding sand is what you'll be told. I don't know how Robert and RF get around this but I'm sure they've worked something out. But those eager to save a buck beware.

A few guys have done this, a couple on the board, and gotten burned by Motec because the unit came from overseas. Paul, sounds like you guys have a good connection and dealer, but that just isn't the case in the US. And don't get me started on sensors - Mike bought a $370 sensor for his, from Motec, that once we received it and checked it out at NAPA (local auto parts store) it turned out to be a $51 retail Bosch piece - talk about raping and pillaging!!!

Not saying they are bad, just pointing out and agreeing with Lynn - in the US running a Motec can be very costly.

 

[ChrisL]

I might make a few points.

1. RF do specify MoTec for their fuel injected cars. In my case, buying the MoTec unit and loading the RF map was a matter of convenience. The extra cost of the unit was more than justified given the alternative of attempting to meet emission requirements on my own (with no guarantees of success).

2. With regards to not being able to squeeze much out much more HP out of the existing map. This may be correct, but I am also aware that the current mapping was built with emissions in mind. My objective would be max HP with no compromises. The result may be that I would have one map for the road and one for the track... ummm unless I forget to load the road map before I leave the track /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

3. I have never built a car (till now) where every aspect of the car was not totally familiar to me. This week, however, the car developed a significant misfire at low throttle (possibly a misaligned throttle sensor), and all I could do to fix it was to yell at it in the hope that it would eventually come good. Needless to say, it didn't... so now I am getting someone else to fix it while I stand back a scratch my backside. I don't really want to be in this situation forever /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Howard Jones]

Can you say 750 doublepumper holley? Sorry I couldn't resist. Ya I know about downunder goverment air quality, how cool the 8 barrels look and all that. But the carb costs 400 bucks and the manifold costs 150 and a couple of hundred more to tune and install the thing and youre done. Makes the same power too. Sorry, but like I said, I couldn't resist.

 

1.newer laptop generally wont work as alot of them have no serial ports and most of the ems use this to comunicate.
2. If you really want a good unit with excellent support for a cheap price go here www.msefi.com
Or if you want more of a challange with features equal to motec and then some, for less money, and you dont need a laptop, but the support sucks www.vems-group.org

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Eric

msefi.com = Very cool site - inspirational - almost makes me reach for my soldering iron... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

A 'quick look' delayed me for best part of an hour - I will be back. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Lynn Larsen]

OK, Paul, you know what they say, "A word to the wise is sufficeint." I'll go there right now if it had that much of an impact on you. This site is really great for this kind of thing (discuss or question just about anything and someone out there will know exactly what you mean and where to find the answer) isn't it?

Thanks for the tips Eric! Based on Paul's reaction, it must be $#!+ hot. I have only looked at a few, including the DIY_EFI after reading about the TEC2 & 3 from Electromotive. I thought they were pretty cool, but then heard from others that they are kind of back'ards in the architecture and quality of components (I still can't believe that you can't do a V8 with 8 coils! Last I heard, all of their systems were wasted spark also.) I believe it was Peter D. who first told me about Autronic and that lead me to lightly reading about several other Australian EMS products. (The Autronic has a very broad range of inputs available.) But I don't think I had heard about these two until today. Thanks again!

Lynn

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Ron and Chris,

I think it would be safe to say that, if anyone on the forum knows the Motec people in Australia or even knows someone who knows them, they outght to go talk to them and see if they can convince them to open up the distributorships in the US. Motec is leaving a LOT, nay a HUGE amount of money on the table here with the AHs who have the sole distributorship, as far as I know.

This is what I would say to them if I had the chance:

Motec, if you're listening, enjoy the ride while you can, because someone will eventually offer a system that is equal to yours in functionality, has a much nicer, more user friendly interface than that described by Ron (I must admit, I have never, knowingly, seen Motec's interface) at a price that doesn't exclude everyone except the most well funded racers. When that happens-- and it may very well already have but hasn't reached critical mass yet-- you can bet your butts that the deep pockets will drop you in a heart beat. Most of them didn't get where they are by being stupid and if they feel sure they can get more for their money, THEY WILL. That is the danger in going for low volume, high pricing with a narrow niche market: its nice while it lasts, but it can evaporate in an instant and you won't know what hit you. You'll be hollaring, "wait, wait, come back please!" And people like me will just point at you and laugh; saying, "It couldn't have happened to a more deserving group of guys!"

Regards,
Lynn

I promise, last rant on Motec. Promise, cross my heart and hope to die!!

 

[James]

Lynn,

Motec will be around for ever.

I don't think pricing is an issue at all. Motec has awesome aftermarket support which you cannot put a price on, they have a very good brand name and most importantly are reliable.

There will always be cheaper options, but that certainly does not mean that customers or potential customers of Motec would just go elsewhere.

Regards,

J.P

 

[Malcolm]

Blimey JP, I should have charged you a £1000 fee for the November track day! Same track, same colleagues, same weather AND Goodwood has been around forever but if I had charged £1000 per car, I would be rather lonely. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Ron Earp]

Times are a changing JP, at least in the US. Your market is different and has a better support network and distributor, but in the US, it is the pits at Lynn mentioned. Rape and Pillage is the company creed and it will bite them.

You mention good company support, but I don't see that here at all. I see things like "Oh, you want the O2 sensor input to be enabled? Well, send us the serial number and that'll be $680." After you were just robbed for $3200 for the basic ECU. Hell, who would even use a EFI system with no O2 sensor inputs enabled?

Yes, I think they are good, but there are systems emerging that are as good with hopefully better support and not the "hand me your wallet" attitude.

 

[James]

I know what you mean Ron. It is unfortunate that the USA are so badly represented.

In Europe we've got some bloody good support which makes it all worth while.

Malc, you know what I mean and its called "BRANDING"! And I don't mean with a "red hot iron" either! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Peter Delaney]

Just heard from a mate who has recently installed a Motec - he was ready to start calibrating & couldn't get the serial port on the PC to talk to the ECU at all. Phone calls to Motec - "Ah, you have the newest s/w & it doesn't use the serial port on the ECU like the previous version, but uses the other DIN-style connector. Oh, you want it to work, do you ? Well then you'll have to buy our little DIN / serial adaptor". I think he said it was about $80. Motec Rape & Pillage is alive & well here in Oz too !

I knew there was some lock-out limitation on the Motec - the time limited wide band lambda function as noted by Paul T - what a rip off - talk about screwing a captive customer - fancy being dumb enough to want to re-tune your engine more than once in your whole life !

My much cheaper Autronic system has a simple serial interface - a stereo headphone jack ! And it comes with a 10m cable (jack plug one end, DB9 on the other). No time-limited garbage, no lock-outs, free software updates, & if you want to buy the top of the range unit (still quite a lot cheaper than Motec) - add launch control, traction control, an extra 7 programmable dig/an outputs, etc, etc.

The Autronic killer is the "Auto-Tune" facility - borrow a wide-band sensor & an Autronic meter, plug the sensor into the meter & the meter into into the ECU & go for a drive. Run the car thru all the load points (more & longer, the better) & you'll end up with a calibration that is really close to correct. Hand back the wide band sensor & meter, plug in your old cheap narrow band sensor & off you go !

Not that I am biased at all !!

Kind Regards,

Peter D.