Nfg!!

[Howard Jones]

Jim, I agree completely on the stud upgrade. I my opinion I would stud all aluminum heads on a SBF. They just work so mach better. It wouldn't hurt to made some measurements and find out how much deeper the original hole can be drilled and tapped. I also though that welding up the dammage could work but without anyway to harden the welded area you might add more material but it would be very soft and the heat of welding will soften up the rest of the head in that area making what threads you have left even weaker.

The healy coil idea is probably the best along with the stud upgrade. This might be a very good idea on a new set of aluminum heads if you invision taking it appart a lot. As far as clamping force I don't think that this is the major issue. The gaskets will seal well enough as long as they adhere to the mating surfaces and are held firmly in place. Good gaskets help a lot also. It really only takes a little more than a dozen pounds of torque as long as it is equal on all the fasteners.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Ian Anderson]

Chat with Roger today

He would not try the unit without some sort of repair - mating surfaces would need to be reasonable.

He would suggest welding and then filing (not machining) and any small imperfecttions could be taken up with a good gasket It would be possible and should not over heat the rest of the head.

He would also consider a good metal fixer / epoxy system to build up the area broken. Again then file to flush and dill and tap.

Studs would be preferable but the bolts should also be acceptable.

I asked about the thought that the thread had sealed and the break been due to hydrolicing and his answer was "bollocks"

Still best solution is a replacement head if that is possible

Cheers
Ian

 

[Chris Kouba]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the responses. I will endeavor to get a few more pics but the replies have made for informed reading. Ian, I appreciate the legwork from your end. I really think it was a casting defect but we'll see how it's handled. I did get a message Monday from Anthem indicating they were supposed to hear from FMS by Tues, but I haven't heard anything from them since. I will be calling them tomorrow though.

I truly appreciate the balanced responses. I thought I was getting to the heart of the knowledge when I called the FMS and Edelbrock tech lines for install questions. Unfortunately I got three different answers in three calls. Frustrating!

Regarding the keep on threading into it, once I get home I will see if I have the clearance to do so. I didn't pay for a used motor and want a new head out of the deal, but that option with studs (and the heli-coil in addition) seem reasonable if I can execute and get shut down for compensation.

I hope everyone has(had) a good Thanksgiving and will post more when I get back into it.

Cheers!

 

[Chris Kouba]

So I don't yet have additional pics to post, but upon further review the bolt hole runs clear through the bottom machined surface of the head and opens into the lifter valley. I wouldn't be stoked about it but I could see tapping it all the way out (currently the bolts stop after ~5/8") and threading a stud into it.

The current amount of thread left in the hole is roughly about 1/2" so it looks like I lost around 1/4" of thread. What remains looks healthy though, just needs a bit of cleaning at the fracture points.

I tried Anthem on Friday and Saturday but got no answer, but then again that's not unexpected over a holiday weekend. I will give them a shot again tomorrow.

Interestingly, all the holes seem to stop after ~5/8" of thread is in there. I would have expected that they'd be tapped all the way through. I think I'll have sufficient material engaged if I tap the remainder of the broken hole but is there some min amount (besides more = better) I should have?

Chris

 

[chuck smith]

why would a small torque wrench be a better choice? Assuming it is accurate, a large one should apply the same force as a small one if using the same poundage settings. Granted you can apply more force with the larger one ,but that defeats the whole idea behind using one.

 

[Doug S.]

why would a small torque wrench be a better choice? Assuming it is accurate, a large one should apply the same force as a small one if using the same poundage settings. Granted you can apply more force with the larger one ,but that defeats the whole idea behind using one.

I must confess I use the smallest torque wrench I can get by with. One reason is that I like to use smaller equipment from a fatigue standpoint. I use 1/4" drive sockets most of the time and only break out the 3/8" when I've got something pretty stubborn. I may use my 1/2" stuff once every 5 years.

Another reason is the accuracy of the adjustments on my Craftsman torque wrenches. I can adjust quite easily by 0.5 pound increments on the smaller of the torque wrenches, whereas the definition on the larger torque wrench is much less accurate. I sneak up on final torque in pretty small steps and the leverage of the smaller beam makes it easier to control that approach.

But, then, I've had a few ex-wives say I can be somewhat compulsive.

Dugly

 

[Chris Kouba]

I called Anthem today and got referred to the FMS people. John at Anthem seemed to think it was some sort of casting flaw as well and the FMS guys should be able to remedy the situation. I emailed them the pics I have posted and am awaiting their reply (should be within the next day).

Cheers,

 

[Chris Kouba]

Well I heard back from FMS yesterday.

They thought it was a case of not having enough thread engaged before loading. I very politely tried to explain that there was about 6 lb-ft of torque applied as it broke but the person I was speaking with wasn't really interested in understanding. He wasn't the person making the disposition of it in the end anyway.

So I asked what they were going to do for me.

"Nothing."

The guy who makes these decisions is apparently out through the end of the week but I have emailed him requesting him to call me. Hopefully he will. I will be calling back next week to chase him down regardless.

I did call John back at Anthem and asked what he can do for me. Someone on their staff has connections or used to work there and will see what they can do. I am anxiously waiting to see what comes of it.

Unfortunately, this portion of the project isn't quite all the fun I was hoping it'd be.

I'll pointlessly continue on to vent other frustrations... Bad things usually happen in threes, right? This all went down as I was walking out the door on a climbing trip. Not exactly what you want to be thinking about. So what's next to happen?

#2) Pulled in to the airport to pick up my buddy to go climb. Six minutes later, crossing an intersection, my Suburban loses forward drive. I'm 6 hours from home in another city. That's going to be expensive (and it was!). Full trans rebuild + rental car for the week.

And it continues... It didn't shift correctly when I picked it up the night before I am to leave. I called the shop back and told them. He said, "Don't worry, it's just breaking in. The valve body and clutches need time to settle." Whatever. It shouldn't be shifting like that. But what do I know? I'm only a mechanical engineer with 200k miles on my truck.

I took it in today locally (after laying in bed sick for the last 6 days) for it's 10 day checkup and guess what- this transmission is toast already!

#3) Just 20 minutes ago, I got a call from my bank's automated something line... I almost didn't pay attention to it until it said "... FRAUD ..." Whoops, maybe I'll listen.

Turns out someone patronized a few establishments and treated themselves to a few things on my behalf. If only I could convince them to knock off that transmission bill.

UGH, it's only money though right?

Chris

 

[Chris Kouba]

Ok, I need some help and I am hoping someone here can help me.

So FMS wants little to do with me. They told me via email that I could ship them the motor and they'd take a look at it and tell me what they think. I am hesitant to waste additional money shipping it just to have them not tell me anything different.

I asked to speak (over the phone) to the individual in charge of the disposition of things like this and he has yet to return correspondance beyond the one where he's told me FMS will do nothing for me at this point.

Has anyone ever had a similar experience with FMS? Did any of it have a happy ending? Can anyone recommend an effective course of action to get some sort of satisfaction?

This whole experience has left a sour taste in my mouth. The debate over hiring a builder vs. buying crate motors has been officially concluded in my mind. Next time(?) I will be going with a REPUTABLE and reliable local resource. Doing it this way was supposed to reduce hassles.

I also finally posted a few more pics (but can't seem to get them to appear in the post)-

a general layout:

a close-up of the failure:

http://www.gt40s.com/gallery/file.php?n=366&w=o

what it's supposed to look like:

http://www.gt40s.com/gallery/file.php?n=365&w=o

an "exploded" view:

http://www.gt40s.com/gallery/file.php?n=367&w=o

a close-up showing the grain structure as best as I could manage:

http://www.gt40s.com/gallery/file.php?n=368&w=o

 

[Chris Kouba]

Double posted. Duplicate deleted.

CK

 

[Chris Kouba]

New post didn't reset to the top of page. Trying again to get a little attention.

 

[Ian Anderson]

Chris

Roger had another look and responded thus

Ian,

Having looked at the pictures there is one that I think is relevant in that it shows evidence of a casting flaw.

It's some distance from the bolt hole but nevertheless cannot be ignored.

See my attached pictures.

The other pictures don't show anything revealing and the broken bits don't show signs of flaws.

However the picture of the bolt suggests that about 10 threads were engaged, which would be thought to be adequate.

The maximum stress in a clamp-bolted connection is in the first thread, diminishing with distance. A flaw in the vicinity would reduce the strength locally.

It might be feasible to do a weld repair, building up the metal and grinding flat and retapping the thread. However, the angle of the seating face would need to be about right.



I think there is a legitimate grievance here because I think there is evidence of a fault in the casting.

However, as with all cases where the enemy dig their heels in, the cost involved in pursuing it would probably outweigh the benefit achieved. Matters of principle cost money but they also reduce the life expectancy!



That's what I think, anyway.



Roger

 

[David Briggs]

Chris, you are stressing too much about this, assemble the thing with some studs(maybe a longer one in that location) torque it down and see what happens. The torque is very minimal on those bolts and I don't think that you will have a problem, if it fails when set up that way than I don't see how FMS can deny your claim. I don't think you will have a problem, I think your bolts were too short.
Dave

 

[Jim]

I agree! Stud it and forget it. FMS won't do anything for you except make you more frustrated and cost you more money. Unless you send it back to them if they will pay the shipping both ways. Ya, like that will happen. This is why Ford is in trouble it doesn't give a damm about the customer, just their bottom line, which is shrinking because of stuff like this. It's always the customer's fault no matter what. Never Ford's fault. Ah, I feel better now.

 

[Chris Kouba]

Just a quick update.

I was quick to berate Ford for inattentive customer service, but they did agree to ship my motor back on their nickel and take a look at it. I'll see what they say about it now and if all goes well I'll actually get what I paid for.

I dropped it to Anthem 12/28 and they shipped it 1/3. I have yet to hear back regarding any disposition. As you can imagine, I am anxious to get my hands back on it now...

Happy New Year,

 

[Scott]

Because there was no real damage to the mating surface, if worse comes to worse and FMS does nothing then stud it and forget it.

 

[Chris Kouba]

Scott-

That's exactly the plan, but I felt compelled to publicize that Ford agreed (eventually) to actually take a look at it.

If they do nothing except ship it back to me then I will stud it but it is worth the time to me to have it looked into by them. Best case, I get a replaced head out of it.

Cheers,

 

[Scott]

I hope to have such dilemmas with a GT40 sometime soon. I have to get my Cobra engine rebuilt and get the car sold so I can call Fran and get the next project underway.

 

[Chris Kouba]

Dredging up the past, the conclusion of my saga...

The motor went back to Ford 12/28 and I picked it up yesterday, 3/14. They gave me the kiss off without telling me why- they simply denied the fact it was a casting flaw.

The irony of it all: it came back to Anthem (the FMS dealer) roughly two weeks ago but no one ever called me to let me know. I've been out of the country on a backcountry ski trip (read: no cell/sat phone or net access) for a week and a half but called Anthem when I got the email upon my return. It had been sitting there for long enough that yesterday when I called John (the owner? of Anthem) he kindly explained that one of his employees saw the long block and manifold in such close proximity that he assumed it was supposed to be assembled, found appropriate length bolts (they thought there was enough thread left to reliably tighten down), and simply put it together. So there, I have a motor.

For their part, Ford has had neither the interest in acknowledging any responsibility for the failure of the boss nor the inclination to possibly find a mutually satisfactual resolution for their customer (ME!). It's frustrating enough for me to actually wish that Chevy campaigned the GT and not Ford. At this point I will go out of my way to avoid purchasing products associated with Ford or FMS and will seek to spend my money with the aftermarket suppliers instead. At this point I am actually wishing I had ponied up for an alu motor, but that's a different story.

Hopefully BillD's saga will have a similar ending. I feel for you man!

 

[Ron Earp]

I know it is frustrating, but following what some others have said I'd just stud it and drive it. It'll be fine. Had a similar thing on a little SB Chevy/Rover motor and it has raced ever since with no issues. You'll spend far more time worrying about it than it is worth, IMHO.

Ron