Now We're in Trouble!

[Terry Oxandale]

Yet.

But, if what you say is true (and you ought to know!) it's probably only because the ins you have meets Obamacare dictates.

Let's see what happens after January...to both your coverage and premium!

Coverage has gone up a small percentage, but that has happened every year for the last 10 years (no new news there about costs of health care). It's simple math, you can't insure more folks without more money. So I accepted that in order for a group of uninsured folks to get needed medical attention, I would pay a reasonable increase for that, because that will make our country better overall. I don't mind a small increase of a few more cents per kW on my electric bill for cleaner emissions for fossil fuel generation because that would make our country better overall. If most of the people in this country disagree, my consent to those increased costs will be out voted, which appears to have happened in the recent election. But separating myth from fact is key, and as such, my second paragraph:

I'm always open to be wrong, but I want to categorize the latter prediction in the same folder as "we'll all lose our guns if Obama gets elected" gun and ammunition buy-up frenzy during the last two Presidential elections.

 

[Larry L.]

Coverage has gone up a small percentage, but that has happened every year for the last 10 years (no new news there about costs of health care). It's simple math, you can't insure more folks without more money.

'Splain that to Obama and Co.! They all insisted the "average family" would be paying and average of $2,500 L-E-S-S a year for BETTER coverage, didn't they! And yet I don't know a darned soul who pays for his own health care whose premium hasn't at least DOUBLED over the past year. None saw their premiums go down at all. 'FACT.

I don't mind a small increase of a few more cents per kW on my electric bill for cleaner emissions for fossil fuel generation because that would make our country better overall.

But, it never stops at "a few cents more", does it? The, "just-a-small-increase-here"...or..."it's-only-a-half-of-one-percent-increase-there", etc, is the drumbeat we always hear from the left regarding any increase in the govt's 'take'. When you add up all the "it's just only(s)" they total some serious money as someone once said. ('Remember the frog in the pot of gradually hotter water???) 'Same "logic"(?!) is applied to budget cuts: "Oh, cutting that program will only reduce the federal debt by A FEW HUNDERED MILLION BUCKS. That's not even going to make a dent in the debt. Why bother?"

BTW...how are all the 'a-few-cents-more-for-cleaner-emmissions' programs working out in China, Indonesia, India and places like that? Not so pretty good, huh. But, that's okay since the air over those countries always stays within their own borders...'never affects other countries' air...and will likewise never enter U.S. air space. So, by golly, every dime the EPA (govt) forces industry and individuals to spend over here on EPA pollution dictates will never be negated by the pollution those other countries freely spew...right? Ditto water pollution, right? Oh, good... (And if you counter with "somebody has to act responsibly...why not us?" or the like, you've missed my point completely.)

'Apologies for the sarcasm, but, good krymuny...

'Done here for a while. 'Gotta drop the ole blood pressure... :sick2:

 

[PeteB]

My company started open enrollment this week. My family deductable DOUBLED and all the copays went up by 20%.

...but here's the real reason the electorate is fed up with the Democrats - we're tired of the lies. This video about says it all:

<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/G790p0LcgbI" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

 

[Steve]

Coverage has gone up a small percentage, but that has happened every year for the last 10 years (no new news there about costs of health care). It's simple math, you can't insure more folks without more money. So I accepted that in order for a group of uninsured folks to get needed medical attention, I would pay a reasonable increase for that, because that will make our country better overall. I don't mind a small increase of a few more cents per kW on my electric bill for cleaner emissions for fossil fuel generation because that would make our country better overall. If most of the people in this country disagree, my consent to those increased costs will be out voted, which appears to have happened in the recent election. But separating myth from fact is key, and as such, my second paragraph:

I'm always open to be wrong, but I want to categorize the latter prediction in the same folder as "we'll all lose our guns if Obama gets elected" gun and ammunition buy-up frenzy during the last two Presidential elections.

The biggest problem with your argument is that your cost won't go up "a little bit". Ever since Medicare in 1965 the cost of govt-sponsored healthcare has gone up faster than the rate of inflation. CMS has raped and pillaged physicians over the last 2 decades to try and "control costs". They've failed over and over despite paying docs less in 2014 for a procedure than they did in 1995. The reality is the govt can't control costs. They don't know how as they don't do it well in any other department (defense spending.....). With medical spending it's multiplied many-fold as new technologies (which everyone including great grandma want) are ever increasing in cost. There are no controls on these costs and patients don't self-regulate as many don't directly have skin in the game.


So, while Medicare is a spending disaster, Obamacare makes it look like my daughter's lunch money. Regardless of all the other pros and cons, we can't afford it and it will accelerate (irreversibly?) our debt considerably. There's a reason why we do more total knee and total hip replacements per capita than Europe (I'm an orthopaedic surgeon). Americans demand it, even when it may not be necessary. They don't want to wait for it like Europeans either and a govt-sponsored payor system gives them a sense that someone else is paying for it.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

If I didn't know better, I'd say that after reading the above post that the government is the sole reason health care costs are out of control. I seriously doubt that was what was meant. The fact that our Congress insists on a private insurance based system, that we cannot negotiate drug costs, has plenty to do with that? Both of those aspects exacerbate the health cost increases. Private (non-government) health costs haven't risen as well or more in some areas. Depending on the numbers used, overhead for government health care varies from 1.5 to 3%, while private insurance is 15-25%. I always enjoy looking at my bills to see the hospital cost versus what was paid. Not sure who is being "raped and pillaged", the hospitals for unrealistic prices, or the insurance company for not wanting to pay enough.

The concept of public health care is great, but somewhere along the line this idea became polluted with outside pressure firmly guaranteeing a middle-man was going to be allowed to profit hugely, and that drug costs would not be negotiable as a policy. The poor guy that is providing the service in the first place is left wondering what to do. Any more, it's the arbitrage in this country that profits, and not the people who directly provide the service or the product. Something is drastically wrong with this country when that happens. One of the great things about a farmers market is the ability to buy directly from the producer (and even negotiate a price), and not from an grocer that inflates the price in order to sustain his unnecessary presence in the link between the farmer and me.

 

[Larry L.]

My company started open enrollment this week. My family deductable DOUBLED and all the copays went up by 20%.

...but here's the real reason the electorate is fed up with the Democrats - we're tired of the lies. This video about says it all:

<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/G790p0LcgbI" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

^^^THERE'S THE "SMOKING GUN" RIGHT THERE.^^^

There you have it. Right from the horse's mouth...'exactly what many of us have been screaming was the case from day-one.

Let's hope Chief Justice Roberts and the rest of the 'Supremes' see this vid and it causes them to work as hard to find a way to come to the correct decision on Obamacare this time around (when the latest ACA case is before them this spring) as they did to find the ACA "constitutional" the 1st time around. (Whether you call Obamacare a TAX or a MANDATE - it STILL forces the American people to buy something from a 3rd party that the govt wants us to buy 'or else'. In this country, things 'ain't' supposed to work that way.)

I cannot remember an administration in my lifetime that has been anywhere near as corrupt from one end to the other as the present one...nor one that outright LIED anywhere near as much about e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. And that includes the Nixon Admin.

Nothing said by anyone in the present admin can - or should - be believed. Absolutely nothing. The whole outfit makes The Boy Who Cried Wolf look like George Washington. (For non Yankees: Google Geo. W. and the cherry tree.)

 

[Keith]

Thanks Larry, unbelievably, many many of us 'non yanks' went to school, and even more unbelievably, learned American history, albeit briefly.

 

[Larry L.]

Thanks Larry, unbelievably, many many of us 'non yanks' went to school, and even more unbelievably, learned American history, albeit briefly.

These days I assume nothing re: anyone's education.

I doubt American kids are taught about ole George anymore...or much U.S. history in general for that matter.

(Google "Watters' World" and listen to the answers given by people on the street in Watters' interviews. Or, Google "Jaywalking videos" [Jay Leno/Tonight Show]. 'Same result. )

Here (and this one is m-i-l-d):

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTgLEseu28[/ame]

OR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDFwTgLEseu28&v=7_pw8duzGUg


...and many of the people seen in videos like these VOTE. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

So, how did Mr. dipstick get elected? The Electorate, that's scary!

 

[Doug S.]

Well, now we know how Gruber feels...but that doesn't mean he's right. If he's part of the Republican establishment, of course he's going to blow Republican smoke up our arses.

Gotta take into account the orientation of ANY source of information in order to determine if it is credible...we've been over this before, perhaps you don't remember?

Doug

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Well, now we know how Gruber feels...but that doesn't mean he's right. If he's part of the Republican establishment, of course he's going to blow Republican smoke up our arses.

Gotta take into account the orientation of ANY source of information in order to determine if it is credible...we've been over this before, perhaps you don't remember?

Doug

Jonathan Gruber is an Obamacare architect who helped create the bill, he is definitely not a republican, but putting that out there, you tried.........

You never replied to this. Doug, Do you honestly believe that Hillary would make a good president? I can't think of anything spectacular she has done in any post she has held. She even babbled on for a short time listing what she done and said nothing. So far the "first" hasn't worked out that well and that's certainly not the criteria for electing the President of The US. And surrounding the office with know nothing cronies hasn't worked well either. Would you vote for someone else more qualified regardless of party? I would.

Jonathan Gruber to MSNBC: My ‘Stupidity of the American Voter’ Remark was Inappropriate | Mediaite

 

[PeteB]

Well, now we know how Gruber feels...but that doesn't mean he's right. If he's part of the Republican establishment, of course he's going to blow Republican smoke up our arses.

Gotta take into account the orientation of ANY source of information in order to determine if it is credible...we've been over this before, perhaps you don't remember?

Doug

:huh: He's one of BOB's advisers and one of the writers of the Obamacare bill. Please try and pay attention

 

[Steve]

If I didn't know better, I'd say that after reading the above post that the government is the sole reason health care costs are out of control. I seriously doubt that was what was meant. The fact that our Congress insists on a private insurance based system, that we cannot negotiate drug costs, has plenty to do with that? Both of those aspects exacerbate the health cost increases. Private (non-government) health costs haven't risen as well or more in some areas. Depending on the numbers used, overhead for government health care varies from 1.5 to 3%, while private insurance is 15-25%. I always enjoy looking at my bills to see the hospital cost versus what was paid. Not sure who is being "raped and pillaged", the hospitals for unrealistic prices, or the insurance company for not wanting to pay enough.

The concept of public health care is great, but somewhere along the line this idea became polluted with outside pressure firmly guaranteeing a middle-man was going to be allowed to profit hugely, and that drug costs would not be negotiable as a policy. The poor guy that is providing the service in the first place is left wondering what to do. Any more, it's the arbitrage in this country that profits, and not the people who directly provide the service or the product. Something is drastically wrong with this country when that happens. One of the great things about a farmers market is the ability to buy directly from the producer (and even negotiate a price), and not from an grocer that inflates the price in order to sustain his unnecessary presence in the link between the farmer and me.

I never said govt was the sole reason for out of control healthcare costs. It's ever-increasing involvement throws gas on the fire, however, and shifts the burden of cost to the govt rather than the individual. Removing self-responsibility and self-regulation from the equation accelerates runaway costs. You are right that there are too many middle-men with their fingers in the cookie jar. Make no mistake, though, that hospitals are part of the problem as well. They have lobbied hard and won. Now, most physicians are hospital employees, which has driven up costs substantially.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Two observations (maybe more than two):

-anyone who thinks our governments can control costs on anything is a delusional idiot.
-it seems to me that the folks who benefited most from the ACA were the health insurance companies. They persuaded the government to deliver the entire population up to them on a platter, AND also eliminate the public insurance option, which would have forced them to compete. They must be laughing at the stupidity of everyone- they were handed a gold mine at the public expense.

The need to do something about the huge numbers of people without health insurance in our country was and is real. I just wish we'd actually done something about the patients involved and not been duped into creating a windfall for insurance companies. Of all the players in this drama, they were least entitled to anything, as they've been snug in the middle happily ripping off both ends for years. Ripping off patients, and ripping off doctors and hospitals as well.

If you ask me who the two most evil actors are in the entire medical-industrial complex, I would say it's the insurance companies, and the pharmceutical folks. Any arguments or do I win on that one?

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Jim 1
Insurance 0

 

[Keith]

I think your conclusion is a 100% correct assumption - and it's global, not limited to the USA.

 

[Steve]

Jim is EXACTLY right. The biggest winner in the ACA is the insurance companies.

The most evil? Well, insurance companies are an obvious one, pharmaceuticals/equipment companies are another. Hospitals are pretty evil too. As they continue to buy up more physician practices, the physician-patient relationship becomes more fractured. In addition, hospitals are reimbursed several times what doctors are for the same services such as MRI's, therapy, echocardiograms, lab work, etc. The service is the same, but they've gamed the system to get paid more for offering no more. Shameful.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Right, right, you're bloody well right....

When I think of all the young folks I wrote medical school recommendations for... I hope they don't come back and sue me for helping them get in....

 

[Jeff Young]

The Gruber video? It's funny to see folks on the right who complain about the stupidity of American voters get their panties bunched by a guy talking about the stupidity of the American voter.

Gruber shouldn't have phrased things that way, but what he said is the truth. You ALWAYS (left or right) have to put the best spin on legislation to get it passed. If this is some sort of shock to you, or you think only one party does it, you are a naive fool.

On top of that, look at the climate at the time. If Gruber was "lying" about this being a tax, the opponents of the ACA (I didn't favor it without the public option by the way) were being just as dishonest with claims of "government take over of the health care industry" (false, it was an insurance take over), and "SOCIALISM!" (false) and "death panels!" (false). Given the climate created by the right over the ACA, it's not surprising that its proponents developed plans like that to make it more palatable to the voting public.

Plus, and again, I was not in favor, the damn thing seems to be working. We just saw the lowest yearly cost increases in health care premiums in the US in the last 20 years. Insurers do actually seem to be competing for this new market. The impact on the deficit has been positive, and it may have extended the life of Medicare.

In short, while a single payer system has proven to be both cheaper and capable of delivering equal or better results in other countries, such that I didn't think the ACA was a good idea, it certainly has not been the destruction of America as the right yelled about (lied about?) during its passage and implementation. Hell, some continue to lie about it here.

The mid terms left me hopeful. Seems like most of the steam has run out of the Tea Party and as I believe Jim noted, most of the REpublicans elected aren't whack jobs. Hell, even Tillis here in NC is MOSTLY (if you can get him away from teh crazies in the legislature) a pro business Republican. 1998 to 2000 was a pretty good time in our history where a Democratic President worked with a Republican Congress and things were good. Maybe that will happen again.

But this is certainly no mandate. President Obama's approval rating is 40%. Congress, controlled by the Republicans, is now at something like 15%. They need to remember that.

 

[Larry L.]

Congress, controlled by the Republicans, is now at something like 15%. They need to remember that.

Uuuuuuuuuuuh, skeuze me?

Congress won't be controlled by GOPs until J-A-N-U-A-R-Y. :evil: