Racing a GT40 Replica (was BEST GT40 for Racing)

[Johan]

There are no original GT40s currently vintage racing in the US other then the Monterey event that I know of.

 

[Johan]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

I am refering to where you summarize the whole thread into these statements. On what experience and knowledge do you base your ability to summarize the thread into these statements? What do you race ?

Wow, this conversation really got cranked up while I was away. Great stuff all. Now, if I may summarize.

1. You can't go "real" vintage racing with anything south of $400K

2. The "R" spec cars from CAV and SPF will allow you to run in some "historic" races, but not much to run against. By the time you make them legal for NASA and SCCA, they will no longer be accepted by the historics.

3. Building a car from the various kits and bringing it up to speed for NASA or SCCA will cost $125K to $150K. Lot's of development and still no guarantee of success.

4. The Active Power GTR is purpose built for NASA Super Touring, and is ALREADY approved by NASA for such. With a unmolested LS6 it can compete in ST1, where the competition is plentiful and fierce. Swap in an LS7 or variant (sky's the limit) and move up to Super Unlimited. Everything about it is proper for this type of racing out of the box, and it costs less than $100K. Although it is not listed in the GT category for SCCA, on the regional level it will be thrown into SPO, where it should be quite competitive.

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

I am refering to where you summarize the whole thread into these statements. On what experience and knowledge do you base your ability to summarize the thread into these statements? What do you race ?

If the rank and file will forgive me, I've never been one to shy away from a good thread derailment (it is one of my few vices)...

Johan, I shouldn't think one would need some certain level of "experience and knowledge" to summarize a thread. Merely a grasp of the English language should suffice, and so I relied upon that instead. Keep in mind, I wasn't attempting to summarize your world, nor was I giving "the state of GT-40 racing according to Tom". Just an attempt to organize for the OP what myself and others had opined to that point. Yet I still have no idea what your asking.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Yet I still have no idea what your asking.

He's asking what specific car you race now, with what sanctioning body do you race, and what is your experience on track, i.e., how long have you been a racer? The same question I asked of the person that started the thread, Mr. Ash.

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

He's asking what specific car you race now, with what sanctioning body do you race, and what is your experience on track, i.e., how long have you been a racer? The same question I asked of the person that started the thread, Mr. Ash.

Implying that I need a resume to have an opinion?

Edit---a careful review of the entire thread would reveal at least an approximate answer to each of those questions.

 

[Johan]

No resume required. Tom, I withdraw the question. I no longer want to know what you race and forbid you to tell me, but what does your girlfriend look like ?
I'm just sayin'... the summary was innaccurate, and it flys in the face of MY agenda, which is to promote racing and get some more cool cars out on the track.
Hey, at least Ron now knows that he could enter the Mitty if he wanted to. . .
Without spending $400,000.
Without making his car illegal for other organizations.
Without spending $125,000.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Implying that I need a resume to have an opinion?
.

No, you don't need a racing resume to have an opinion. It is just a simple question. The thread is about racing, it is nice to know who on the thread are active racers and what their experiences are. Helps to frame the discussion.

For example, I know Johan is a very active vintage racer and I've already learned some important information from his perspective. He races the "real deals", plus replicas, and has a lot to share. I imagine he could teach most anyone on this forum something about vintage racing.

I'm an active SCCA racer (SAARC, ECRs, six time VIR 13 hour runner), and people sort of know my view point and experiences based on my history of posting on the forum. I'd be happy to help someone become an SCCA racer and the point of me posting on this thread is to try and share my experiences of getting a car that is a close cousin of the GT40 into the SCCA.

Randy is a SCCA tech inspector and carries out other functions in his SCCA region. He's been racing a lot longer than I have and certainly has more seat time in more varied cars than I and thus I'd imagine most could learn a lot from him. I know I can.

So no, you don't need to tell us anything about your racing experience if you don't want to. But it just helps others relate to you and relate your experiences and viewpoints to others.

Hey, at least Ron now knows that he could enter the Mitty if he wanted to. . .
Without spending $400,000.
Without making his car illegal for other organizations.
Without spending $125,000.

And this is cool. I knew I didn't have to spend $125k but I seriously didn't know that the T70 would even be welcome at such an event. From my SCCA background we just don't learn much about vintage racing despite the fact that one of my race cars IS a vintage car that I try to race in a modern series. And with sometimes good effect.

 

[Tom Leonard]

No resume required. Tom, I withdraw the question. I no longer want to know what you race and forbid you to tell me, but what does your girlfriend look like ?
I'm just sayin'... the summary was innaccurate, and it flys in the face of MY agenda, which is to promote racing and get some more cool cars out on the track.
Hey, at least Ron now knows that he could enter the Mitty if he wanted to. . .
Without spending $400,000.
Without making his car illegal for other organizations.
Without spending $125,000.

I can't tell you what my girlfriend looks like, on the possibility that my wife should read this and be able to pick her out in a crowd. She'd make a scene, I just know it.

Now who's summarizing inaccurately? I never said he would have to spend $125K to drive in the Mitty, nor that it would then be illegal for other organizations. What I have tried to maintain is that a Mitty GT-40 would not be able to compete in NASA or SCCA in any of the classes that it would be cast. If you have information to the contrary, please share.

 

[Randy V]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Tom -

As difficult as it must be - please try to pay close attention here

If it (the car) is not listed within the GT Specifications - it will almost 100% assuredly not be accepted into the ranks of Super Production.

Note "Almost" gives some measure of latitude to the certainty of 100%...
Never say never or always without qualification..

Please continue reading:

I'm not sure why you feel the FIA homologation is the necessary caveat, the statement preceeding that (above) says it all.

From the SCCA Rule book;

2. In addition, organizers may include either or both of the following Optional Regional Classes in their events defined in 3.1.5, 3.1.6 and 3.1.7.

a. Super Production Class (SP) (Optional Regional Class): Cars which exceed the preparation limitations of the appli- cable Production or GT Category Rules but which meet the General Technical Specifications of Section 9 of the GCR for GT category cars. This includes cars not listed in the GT or Production specification pages, such as FIA homologated production cars.​

​

Remember when I said this?

The SCCA has very specific rules and guidelines.. Their coverage for any potential "gray area" is the mantra:

If we don't specifically tell you that you can do something - you cannot do it..​

Now - look at the part above where I changed the color of the words "not listed" to gray and apply the Gray Area mantra right above..

Which is why I said

The note about FIA Homologation just may do the trick for the GT40 and others like it.

So you see - when the SCCA said

such as FIA homologated production cars.

They gave a list of examples by basically stating - if it was FIA homologated, it would be acceptable.

Thank you for doing some homework and finding that tidbit. In the interest of avoiding confusion and misinformation, perhaps next time a bit of research in advance would be advisable.

I've spent the last 35 years reading and understanding the GCR and those rules that are relevant to the classes I am either competing in or building cars to compete in. I possibly should have seen that change to the Super Production rules when it came out - but quite honestly, I've not needed to visit this section of the rules lately.

As for making the cage safe, it simply required a redesign of the spider to incorporate the top of the door as part of the roof (check). As easy to climb out of as my Corvette and easier still when upside down. Race these cars without the proper cage and the odds of being alive to crawl out of that window in the scenario you describe is what becomes the issue.

Have you ever crashed a racecar and ended up upside down? I have.. Un-buckling and escaping that car was one of the most butt-puckering experiences I've ever had. And - it was a Corvette.

Have you ever sat in a GT40? Somehow I don't think so.. Without the part of the roof that's attached to the door, you leave yourself precious little room to get in and out of the car ((without)) a Roll cage. Now put some side intrusion above the sills (which are your fuel tanks by the way).. Now you need to crawl over the sill, and basically through the side window which is scarcely 12" tall..
So why am I making this point? Because in order to have an SCCA Compliant roll cage, you would have to have a connection point between the outside top of the main hoop and the outside top of the front hoop at the top of the windshield. That effectively eliminates the top part of the car (which normally swivels away with the door) as part of your escape route.

I apologize for my ill advised reference to "buddies". As a point of explanation, I was reminded of certain local building inspectors who, in the absence of supporting documentation, will misquote, misinterpret, or just plain make shite up on their own.

Apology accepted.

Now - I ask you if you have ever built a racecar and taken it hundreds of miles away to get it inspected and log-booked for competition?

I have. Many times. I've never been turned away - although a couple of times it was close. I've seen many sent back home. Nobody gives you the money it cost you to tow all that distance. Some regions do not have a 100% refund policy if you don't make the race (you typically pay in advance or pay a late registration fee at the gate)..

Would it piss you off if you went through weeks or months of work, made all the arrangements, paid to tow 16 hours to the track - only to be turned away?
Off course it would.
But it wouldn't piss you off half as bad as if you were to crash an unworthy car and be trapped in it and injured badly - or worse....

So what GT40 is the best one for racing - that was the question.

I will state that, in my opinion, while the GT40 has a rich racing heritage, that as far as serious 10-10th's W2W racing is concerned - the GT40 needs to remain part of history..

 

[Johan]

Cool post Randy.

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Note "Almost" gives some measure of latitude to the certainty of 100%...

Perhaps, but it doesn't mean 0%. "This includes cars NOT listed"...
the rest of the statement is not a qualifier, it is an example.

I've spent the last 35 years reading and understanding the GCR and those rules that are relevant to the classes I am either competing in or building cars to compete in. I possibly should have seen that change to the Super Production rules when it came out - but quite honestly, I've not needed to visit this section of the rules lately.

I'm confused. Stated simply, were you right or wrong in your previous assertion?

Have you ever sat in a GT40? Somehow I don't think so..

Are you just looking for opportunities to be wrong? Really bad assumption.

That effectively eliminates the top part of the car (which normally swivels away with the door) as part of your escape route.

You made the scenario that the door would not open, so this point is moot.

Now - I ask you if you have ever built a racecar and taken it hundreds of miles away to get it inspected and log-booked for competition?

No, I built it, and was smart (or lucky) enough to take it exactly 18 miles for certification and it's first race weekend. It passed without so much as a single discrepancy. Although I had to break out the GCR on several occasions to disprove what the highly experienced scrutineer thought to be fact.

I will state that, in my opinion, while the GT40 has a rich racing heritage, that as far as serious 10-10th's W2W racing is concerned - the GT40 needs to remain part of history..

I would never have guessed this was the way you felt.

How do you feel about the modern Daytona Prototype?

 

[Johan]

What kind of car did you build for racing Tom ? Hey, this is my 1000th post !

 

[Tom Leonard]

What kind of car did you build for racing Tom ? Hey, this is my 1000th post !

HA HA Johan, nice try.

 

[F1Ash]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Two minor points:

1. SPf GT40R and Pathfinder GT40R are the same thing.
2. Most of the changes from SPF GT40 to GT40R are described on the SPF web site as well as earlier threads on this forum.

Hi Alan, 2 minor points from me as well :heart: lol :shy: If you contact Superformance and say you want the GT40R, they build it themselves based on Dennis Olthoff's Specs/Setup and will favor Roush power plants.

If you contact Pathfinder.....Pathfinder gets the car from Superformance and basically does there own setup (they take the place of Olthoff Racing) and than they run the Holman Moody Power Plant.

So yes, essentially, it is the same Car, but some different "Tweaks" I guess you could say get placed in later.

I may have gotten an adjective or two wrong in there, but that is essentially what I was told. When I spoke with Superformance in Irvine a couple weeks ago, they gave me a Spec List from Olthoff Racing, Inc. When I asked about what Pathfinders relationship with the GT40R was, they said that Pathfinder uses our car, but their own setup (more or less).

 

[F1Ash]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Mr. Ash, I suggest you start a new thread on that topic. This topic has useful information for those seeking to run a GT40 in a modern race series and adding lap times into the mix is going to dilute it quite a bit.

Fair enough. I shall copy and paste the question to a new Thread!

 

[F1Ash]

Regarding FiA Homologation.

Superformance and Olthoff Racing offer a GT40-R Car with FiA Certification/Homologation.

It was one of my options when going through the check list down at Superformance a couple weeks ago (I havent ordered anything yet) But Im getting closer!!!!


..... at an Extra Cost of course!!!!!!! :drunk:

 

[Cliff Beer]

There are no original GT40s currently vintage racing in the US other then the Monterey event that I know of.

I watch original GT40s race every summer here in Seattle at the SOVREN event in July at Seattle International Raceways. In fact, this past summer, I watched one get taken out on the second lap by a flying clam shell which came lose from the Lola ahead of it (pic before it was taken out). I don't recall which chassis number this one was but the placard indicated somewhere in the original range.

Monterey is not the only venue where original GT40s race regularly.

Come to Seattle this summer Johan, I think you'd find it to be a super fun and collegial venue with some amazing vintage machinery. We happen to have a lot of billionaires in the area (thanks to Microsoft) who really get into this stuff with some amazing wheels.

ps. that's John Shirley - co-founder of Microsoft, driving the snot out of his '34 Alfa P3 this past summer as well. Nice friendly guy, will graciously answer all kinds of dumb questions in the pits.

 

[F1Ash]

What kind of car did you build for racing Tom ? Hey, this is my 1000th post !

hahaha Congratulations Johan! :thumbsup: That was awesome!! lol

 

[Graham]

HA HA Johan, nice try.

Tom, I've been reading this thread with interest.

However, frankly you come across as rude and somewhat ignorant. All the guys on here have tried in one way or another to help you and take an interest in your experience.

To then come over all secretive is crass and rude. Frankly, the guys on here are being very polite to you.

Lighten up and share your experiences, if you actually have any...

Graham.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Hi Alan, 2 minor points from me as well :heart: lol :shy: If you contact Superformance and say you want the GT40R, they build it themselves based on Dennis Olthoff's Specs/Setup and will favor Roush power plants.

If you contact Pathfinder.....Pathfinder gets the car from Superformance and basically does there own setup (they take the place of Olthoff Racing) and than they run the Holman Moody Power Plant.

So yes, essentially, it is the same Car, but some different "Tweaks" I guess you could say get placed in later.

I may have gotten an adjective or two wrong in there, but that is essentially what I was told. When I spoke with Superformance in Irvine a couple weeks ago, they gave me a Spec List from Olthoff Racing, Inc. When I asked about what Pathfinders relationship with the GT40R was, they said that Pathfinder uses our car, but their own setup (more or less).

If you contact Dennis Olthoff I think you will find out that he does the setup on the Pathfinder cars as well. I have a customer's GT40 "R" at Olthoff's currently being finished. This includes installation of the fuel cells (which are proprietary to Olthoff, you could use others, but would incur the development costs) the suspension setup and other race-needed modifications. The factory (Hi Tech) does numerous changes on the "R" vs. the "standard" GT40 but they do not do all of the upgrades, i.e. six point belts, catch cans, etc.

Olthoff is the aknowledged master of these upgrades as he has raced his GT MK II (a very early production car) added a cage and developed most of the race spec parts and mods needed. He has also done several "R" setups/installs. We didn't want to reinvent the wheel so off to Dennis the car goes.

And yes, if you talk to Superformance retail in Irvine (Hillbank) they like Roush, but they are a Roush dealer. Pathfinder has used Holman-Moody engines so far. You may choose what you like or build/buy your own choice. Personally, I don't see the value in the Holman choice, they are are not reknown for small blocks and I believe (my PERSONAL opinion) that there are better/less expensive choices. Our customers car will have a vintage 302 with Gurney heads and Webers so it should make all the right noises.

So an "R" is an "R" is an "R"......