Racing a GT40 Replica (was BEST GT40 for Racing)

Graham

Sounds to me like you need to lighten up. Name calling has no place here. If you fail to see the humor in the last couple of exchanges between myself and Johan, I'm sorry.
 
Graham

Sounds to me like you need to lighten up. Name calling has no place here. If you fail to see the humor in the last couple of exchanges between myself and Johan, I'm sorry.

Not really - I just fail to see why you aren't willing to discuss the car(s) you've raced. and I wasn't referring to the obviously humorous exchanges, I was referring to :-


When asked "What do you Race?", you answered:-

"Can you clarify the question? Are you asking what type of car or what sanctioning bodies? Although I'm not sure why either question would be endemic to the discussion."

It's pretty obvious what was being asked...

and Johan :-

Originally Posted by Johan
I am refering to where you summarize the whole thread into these statements. On what experience and knowledge do you base your ability to summarize the thread into these statements? What do you race ?


to which you replied:-

Yet I still have no idea what you're asking.

to which Ron replied:-

He's asking what specific car you race now, with what sanctioning body do you race, and what is your experience on track, i.e., how long have you been a racer?

To which you then replied...

Implying that I need a resume to have an opinion?

and finally from Johan:-

What kind of car did you build for racing Tom ? Hey, this is my 1000th post !<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

To which you weren't prepared to answer...

It's not a difficult question really...

What cars have you raced, and where etc...

I have no skin in this game at all Tom, and am not out to piss anyone off. It just seemed strange that you don't want to share your experiences with those who are happy to share theirs with you...
 
Not really - I just fail to see why you aren't willing to discuss the car(s) you've raced. and I wasn't referring to the obviously humorous exchanges, I was referring to :-


When asked "What do you Race?", you answered:-

"Can you clarify the question? Are you asking what type of car or what sanctioning bodies? Although I'm not sure why either question would be endemic to the discussion."

It's pretty obvious what was being asked...

and Johan :-

Originally Posted by Johan
I am refering to where you summarize the whole thread into these statements. On what experience and knowledge do you base your ability to summarize the thread into these statements? What do you race ?


to which you replied:-

Yet I still have no idea what you're asking.

to which Ron replied:-

He's asking what specific car you race now, with what sanctioning body do you race, and what is your experience on track, i.e., how long have you been a racer?

To which you then replied...

Implying that I need a resume to have an opinion?

and finally from Johan:-

What kind of car did you build for racing Tom ? Hey, this is my 1000th post !<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

To which you weren't prepared to answer...

It's not a difficult question really...

What cars have you raced, and where etc...

I have no skin in this game at all Tom, and am not out to piss anyone off. It just seemed strange that you don't want to share your experiences with those who are happy to share theirs with you...
Well, I'm really sorry that it means that much to you, Graham. If my refusal to engage in some childish genital measurement game means I'm rude and ignorant, then so be it. It's not a secret, it's just not relevant. I have tried to be careful to separate what I know to be fact from what is my opinion, and not represent one as the other. If others were careful to do the same, the conversation would be less disjointed. If I let my admittedly limited experience cause me to take everything the "highly experienced" person said at face value, I'd still be working on my car trying to meet rules that don't exist in the SCCA GCR, instead of racing it.

This thread is supposed to be about the cars, not the people. If you have an insatiable thirst to get to know me personally, pick up a copy of my biography, it's in bookstores everywhere.

My skin is really thick and I'm not now nor have I at any point had my feathers ruffled by an internet chat. It's all good by me. However, in the future if you're "not out to piss anyone off" you might wish to refrain from calling someone rude and ignorant. And since you have yet to add anything of value to the discussion, a less hardy soul might mistakenly surmise that "pissing someone off" was indeed your intent.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Tom, there is a lot of racing knowledge on the board here. We're trying to help you -- help us help you. If you have race experience with different sanctioning bodies, or different cars, that will help us understand where you are coming from.

This is one of the most congenial, helpful car/racing boards out there.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Guys, this thread has really degenerated into uselessness and I'm certainly guilty contributing to it. I'm sorry for that. I'm not sure there is anything more than needs saying here.

Let's all try and improve the signal to noise ratio on the forum. In the paddock, have at banter all you want, but on the rest of the forum we need to keep posts and threads to pertinent information.
 
Tom,

I've sussed you out :)

Tom Leonard's Ford Special

For the 1962 season the SF Region of the SCCA restored "Novice Races" to Northern California race weekends. Among the unusual entries was Tom Leonard's flathead Ford powered Special. (Photos by Allen Kuhn)

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 cols=1><TBODY><TR><TD>
TomLeonard3801.jpg
</TD></TR><TR><TD>The bearded Leonard on the grid at Del Mar in 1963. This car was one of the last flathead powered Specials to compete in California. Historic racer Dave Seely identifies the fiberglass body as a "Kellison J4 Roadster body".</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>​

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 cols=1><TBODY><TR><TD>
TomLeonard3802.jpg
</TD></TR><TR><TD>A throwback to a much earlier era of racing, Leonard's Special dwarfs Frank Monise's Lotus 23 in the foreground. Behind Leonard is Tom Handelson's Corvette powered MGA</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
Guys, this thread has really degenerated into uselessness and I'm certainly guilty contributing to it. I'm sorry for that. I'm not sure there is anything more than needs saying here.

Let's all try and improve the signal to noise ratio on the forum. In the paddock, have at banter all you want, but on the rest of the forum we need to keep posts and threads to pertinent information.

Apologies Ron, I posted this whilst you were posting yours.... Just a bit of fun.
 
Hey Cliff, thanks for that invite. I have been contemplating racing on the West coast circuits more often. Just leave a car out there. I believe that is what Archie Urcioli does and that is his Red GT40 in your picture (I think). He also has a Lola T70. Used to be chairman of Merril Lynch but has seen the error of his ways, retired and now vintage races a packed schedule. Chris Macallister races one as well. Jim Glick from Arizona still races his. The two cars from the Shelby Museum in Boulder no longer race after the death Of Larry Miller who owned the museum. I just never see any racing is what I should have said, other than Monterey.
Vintage racing has changed a lot over the past two decades. At the GT40 reunion at Road America in 1994 there were something like 30-40 original cars and the GT40 race was a full field. But now fast forward to the GT40 reunion race at Road America in 2009.
Only Archie and Chris were willing to race their cars. In other words, 90% of the field had dropped out of vintage racing their GT40s over the 15 years.
The President of Road America asked me to try and help them round up more entries and I called George Stauffer and asked him why he was not going to enter his Lemans winning MK II.
He explained to me that the cars are worth 10 times what they were worth 20 years ago, that they are 20 years older and would have to be totally gone through just to do one race, and also that the owners/drivers were 20 years older and not as apt to jump behind the wheel at a track like Road America and run the car to the limit. Also, the original drivers of the cars such as Redman, Bondurant, etc were 20 years older as well (if they were lucky). So, with 2 original entries, this thread was started:
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/worldwide-gt40-events/27101-gt40-45th-reunion-road-america.html
The reunion was the best it could be. There was a tent full of original cars on display and Group 11 was made up of a couple original cars and the rest were members of this forum out having a lot of fun in their replicas. Guess what? The only people that noticed the lack of original GT40s were the members of this forum or the guys in the race groups. The spectators, and there are thousands at this event, saw a bunch of GT40s going around the track. The forum members had a lot of fun I think as well.
Now here we are in 2011 and the problem is even worse. The economy has made it difficult to justify something like Vintage racing. Lots of these cars have gone overseas or to museums. Most of them are no longer raced.
This is why the inclusion of replicas in Vintage racing has come about, and it is at all levels. Gelscoe tubs are a lot better than a rusty original tub going into turn one...
Any GT40 that is built like an original could be made into a vintage race car and raced here East of the Mississippi( West is more stringent).
So, if you already have a GT40 that is built like an original car and wanted to race it, it would be a matter of spending the (substantial) time and money to turn it into a race car.
If you had no car and wanted to get one for vintage racing and track use, the Superformance GT40r is less money than buying an ERA and making a race car out of it, although the ERA can certainly race (I can attest). If you got a GT40r the first call to make would be to Dennis Olthoff.
If you wanted to drive your car on the street and do the occasional track day, the RCR car would be better than most as Fran has eliminated many of the flaws of the original car such as accomodation of a larger driver.
I am sure CAV and others fit in as well (I am not familiar with them).
I have only shared my opinions regarding vintage racing and there are a totally different set of considerstions if racing with NASA was the goal.
My point in making this post is that the majority of the racers in the paddock appreciate the inclusion of replicas when originals are no longer available to fill the grid.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ron Earp

Admin
Now here we are in 2011 and the problem is even worse. The economy has made it difficult to justify something like Vintage racing. Lots of these cars have gone overseas or to museums. Most of them are no longer raced.
This is why the inclusion of replicas in Vintage racing has come about, and it is at all levels. Gelscoe tubs are a lot better than a rusty original tub going into turn one...

Good to see this thread back on track with pertinent information.

Johan, I have some specific questions regarding the RCR T70 in vintage (the same would apply to GT40 replicas like the GT40R, ERA, CAV, etc)


  • Brakes - are modern 6 pot brakes ok? when Dennis O and I were running the UTCC at VIR this past summer I noticed his GT40 did have modern brakes.
  • Wheels - are knock off wheels required? I switched to bolt on for the SCCA.
  • Bodywork - as you probably know my T70 is the Heritage (I think) bodywork used by RCR and GD. Does it need one of the other versions of bodywork?
  • Tires - Can I run my DOT Hoosier Rs or Hoosier slicks, or, do I need to use vintage tires?
  • Engine - does the engine need to be "vintage spec" - in my case it'd have to be a Gurney Westlake motor with Webers. Right now it is a 302 with a 4bbl.
  • Transmission - I've got a four speed but it isn't a Hewland.
I'm interested for sure. Not for 2011 though, I've got a lot of work on my plate with the Lola in SCCA/NASA and the 13 Hour, but I thought to come to the Mitty this year to learn what it is about.

Good info and helpful.
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Good to see this thread back on track with pertinent information.

Johan, I have some specific questions regarding the RCR T70 in vintage (the same would apply to GT40 replicas like the GT40R, ERA, CAV, etc)


  • Brakes - are modern 6 pot brakes ok? when Dennis O and I were running the UTCC at VIR this past summer I noticed his GT40 did have modern brakes.
  • Wheels - are knock off wheels required? I switched to bolt on for the SCCA.
  • Bodywork - as you probably know my T70 is the Heritage (I think) bodywork used by RCR and GD. Does it need one of the other versions of bodywork?
  • Tires - Can I run my DOT Hoosier Rs or Hoosier slicks, or, do I need to use vintage tires?
  • Engine - does the engine need to be "vintage spec" - in my case it'd have to be a Gurney Westlake motor with Webers. Right now it is a 302 with a 4bbl.
  • Transmission - I've got a four speed but it isn't a Hewland.
I'm interested for sure. Not for 2011 though, I've got a lot of work on my plate with the Lola in SCCA/NASA and the 13 Hour, but I thought to come to the Mitty this year to learn what it is about.

Good info and helpful.

Ron,

The SPF Gts run Wilwood four pots. The "R" uses the same calipers but different pads. No six piston calipers here. We can also provide the original type Girlings with solid rotors. A lot less brake for a whole lot more money! Some groups (Europe primarily I understand) require the Girlings and solid rotors if the car is a pre-Gulf MK I replica. So if you replicate a 1966 LeMans entry (say the Rob Walker or Ford France car) you need solids, if you replicate a 68-69 gulf car vented rotors are OK.
 
Ron, to address your questions...
Brakes. I have two sets. I have a $6000 set that are solid rotor single piston correct set and a $4000 bigger vented set. I have never run the bigger brakes but they bolt right on. I could run them everywhere but Goodwood and Monterey because they are Can Am brakes used on T70s in Can Am but not in 1965 which is the Goodwood cutoff date. I would approach your car as follows...bring it to the Mitty on a trailer and enter and get it teched and get a one race waiver to run your current brakes. If you don't finish ahead of mid-pack they may let you keep your brakes but the simpler solution is to have two sets of brakes. The correct set would be a modern brake that has no advantage over an original brake but does not have to be the actual original brake in this particular instance. It is only fair because no matter where you are in the pack, you are racing somebody.
Wheels. Bolt ons are fine
Bodywork. Your bodywork is fine and as a matter of fact I have a complete set of extra panels if you ever have a need for them. I assume your fenders cover the tires in plan view and you don't have some huge wing.
Tires. You have 15" wheels right ? You could run BlueStreaks or perhaps get by with your DOT Hoosiers but Slicks would put you in a different class that you do not want to run in.
Engine. Your pitifully underpowered engine should be fine for HSR so long as you do not have 18 drgree heads etc.
Transmission. Your transmission does not provide you with an advantage, does it?
The main consideration is whether or not your modifications provide you with an advantage over those running original cars.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Bodywork. Your bodywork is fine and as a matter of fact I have a complete set of extra panels if you ever have a need for them. I assume your fenders cover the tires in plan view and you don't have some huge wing.

Tires. You have 15" wheels right ?

Engine. Your pitifully underpowered engine should be fine for HSR so long as you do not have 18 drgree heads etc.

Transmission. Your transmission does not provide you with an advantage, does it?

Then it should be a go. I have just a little tiny "wing" that we've seen on some Lolas. 15" wheels, check. I've never liked 17" and so on with the vintage car look. Pitiful engine, yep, check, we're low powered. Transmission, no, I can't see how it'd have an advantage. Four speed, normal clutch, and for all intensive purposes works like the real deal.

Brakes, well, I have six pots up front and fours in the rear. The four pots are the same caliper as the SPF car. A four pot will bolt on up front though and actually the four pot and six pot calipers use the exact same pad shape. If the SPF replica can run them then it should be ok for this one too I'd think. Could probably find some two pot calipers that would bolt on in the front. Wilwood or Brembo probably makes them.

You can sort of see the little "wing" in this picture. Ok? Lola Oak Tree

Cage design is of course not vintage so it doesn't look as sleek as a real Lola. Cockpit is not as a real Lola either and it is left hand drive. But, it is basic and utilitarian.

R
 

Keith

Moderator
Nice shot Ron.. As a matter of interest, will the courses you run be CW or ACW? I only ask because I do remember back in the day that RHD British cars were preferred by sports car racers as most tracks they ran were CW.

Of course, if the car is optimised for street use as a result, then there's my answer!
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Most everything around me is clockwise except for the NASCAR tracks: Rockingham, Daytona and Charlotte motor speedway.
 
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