Ok, I see your point, so in other words they were paid up front in full for everything they did for RF. Funny, the group "Christmas Pic" has them looking a bit moody, (no, not a bit, a lot) not at all like someone who has been paid in advance!
Oliver, perhaps this would be better served in a private message to you, but I find your latest avatar offensive. Since your return you have shown restraint in your posts which is commendable, but your continually switching of your avatar to shock and awe shows your need for attention. I for one don't need to see naked obese women swimming or posing for you. Perhaps they are relatives, that is why you have the photos. It would be appreciated if you would please keep them private. That goes for your dream date photo of Michael as well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beat.gif Everyone is born with flaws. Well to be fair, Micheal created most of his own problems. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif In another post, another forum member has captioned his post as "fat chic lift system". That is equally as tasteless and in my opinion detracts from his post. I believe there are women members of the forum who would find that offensive as well. Before you jump to conclusions, I am not anymore overweight than you or the average American. The women you continually show in your avatar look like they have a medical condition which is the cause of there obesity.
I'm truly sorry if I offended you. And for that I changed it for you "For Now". But your comments regarding needing attention, and reference to the photo's being relitives and My Dream date "Micheal" I find equally offensive and judgmental. If I offend you just say so. Don't need a side walk psychologist telling me their offended and then make stupid comments. The forum gets a little dry and if it makes people laugh than good..We need to laugh. Lighten up a little it won't hurt. Next time just send a pm. it would have been just as affective.
Thank you Oliver. I am feeling the love. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smoke.gif I know they say long distance relationships don't last, but I'm hoping ours will be different. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I really don't have a problem with you making fun of Michael, but his pictures are just down right scary. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
Ron, The lack of bankers involved in this is telling in a couple of ways. First credit quality is usually indicated by bank loans and the quanity of those loans. Most company's with a short term cash flow problem will go to a bank and apply for a bridge loan. The lack of them tells us that either they were not applied for of were not granted.
The second thing is with most creditors on a near equal footing, at least after the taxes and lawyers are paid, you all may be able to recover something. I am trying to remain at least a little positive.
Oh, I agree with putting all the RF stuff here. Cleaned things up a bit. How about all future posts on this matter going into only one thread? freezing the rest. This would make it easier to follow. Just a thought.
This post is intended to give members a bit of an update and clarify some issues.
It is also not intended to be a judgment of any person or persons. I am neither friend nor foe of RF or Robert Logan. I have never met him but have spoken to him on the telephone re matters Engineering on several occasions.
All of the information is in the Public Domain and should any member so desire they could verify all of it.
Administrators were appointed on the 21st March on a referral from RF P/L Attorney. The Administrators now have control of the company. RL as the Director has no control and by law has to cooperate with the Administrators.
The mere fact that the Administrators were called in By RL in no way means that RL will get priority treatment. The administrators have a responsibility to the creditors and are governed by the laws of Aust.
The first meeting of creditors on Tuesday 28th March was to
a) form a creditors committee if the creditors present deemed it necessary
b) decide on the composition of a creditors committee if so formed
c) Remove the appointed Administrators if the creditors present so decided
d) Appoint someone else as Administrator if the creditors present so decide.
The fact that the Administrator was not able to be changed by Creditors will have no bearing on the outcome.
A second meeting of creditors at a date to be fixed by the Administrator will decide on
a) Have the company enter into a deed of arrangement with creditors.
This could be in the form of a cash payment to creditors of X cents in the dollar and the remainder written off by the creditor. The company may then continue to trade.
This could also be in the form of a payment over time to the creditors.
A deed can only be likely if the company is financially viable (i.e. make a profit) and has the ability to trade out of debt over time.
Creditors would need to see some benefit to them. I.e. if the company is wound up now the creditors will get X cents in the dollar, if the creditors forego some of the debt and the company trades profitably they may get X+ cents in the dollar.
The Administrator has to be comfortable that any deed of arrangement will succeed as he has a duty to all the Creditors equally and without favor.
b) End the administration,
i.e. the creditors can hand back control to RL.
(only likely if RL pays everybody or creditors are extremely generous and forego all of the debt)
c) Wind up the company.
The administrators will prepare a financial affairs statement, which among other things may look into the viability of the company should it continue to trade. They will make a recommendation to the Creditors as to the most beneficial (to the Creditors) approach of a) b) or c) as above.
The company has provisional debts of (approx figures) as at 21 march 2006
1. trade creditors AUD 150,000
2. Taxation AUD 37,000
3. 13 UK creditors GBP 94,000 = AUD 222,000
4. 13 USA creditors USD 250,000 = AUD 341,000
Total AUD 750,000
1. Employee entitlements is unknown at this point in time ( Holiday pay etc)
2. Other government taxes GST (VAT) unknown
3. It is now known that there were some errors in deposits
4. It is now known that some creditors were not listed ( Camco SA for one)
The above figure will rise when the Administrators complete the financial statement of the company and may approach AUD 1, 000,000
Employees, and secured creditors (bank) will get paid first before any distribution to unsecured creditors. The Administrator also gets paid
In the event that the company is wound up the creditors need to be active to maximize the return. Ask questions of the Administrator, bear in mind that the Administrator is probably not technically minded and unless someone tells him he will not know what is what and what it may be worth or what is a reasonable value.
The Administrator will compile a list of company assets
I have been advised that the jigs and tooling in Australia forms part of the assets of the company.
There are jigs and tooling in South Africa which are also assets of the company.
There is stock in Australia of unknown value at this time
There is stock in Sth Africa of unknown value at this time.
I don’t know what the initial plan was but in about 5 months Camco SA were in production incl manuf of all jigs, moulds, tooling.
Camco could have done a runner with the stock in SA…………but he elected not to.
Members who are creditors must get someone in Oz to have a look at the assets and make sure they realize the maximum when and if sold. Don't leave it to your Oz legal representative; get someone who knows what they are looking at and liase with your legal rep in Oz.
There are a few “feet on the ground” in Oz who have already pointed the Administrator in worthwhile directions. There has been some useful information come from the USA and UK and not all of it from Creditors. Some came from other GT 40 manufacturers.
Every little bit helps, you may think a small piece of information is insignificant, but several small pieces may become significant, so ……. Pass it on to the “convener” of your USA or UK Creditors group.
In the event that the company has been trading whilst insolvent for some time, the director/s are in breach of the law and may well be personally liable. Basically if a company cannot pay its debts as and when they fall due it is insolvent. The Administrators will be able to determine if the company has been insolvent for some time. In the event that the company was insolvent some time ago the debt burden may well have been less and the creditors may well have been facing a lesser loss.
Those affected should seek clarification from your legal rep in Oz
The overseas creditors should perhaps all vote together through the one legal rep in Oz. There are voting rules which take into account the value of the debt. The future of the company could well be in the hands of the overseas creditors. You should seek clarification from your legal rep in Oz. Someone who is owed one dollar does not necessarily have the same voting power as someone owed 100,000 dollars.
There exists laws in Oz to prevent coy directors hiding behind the "its all in my wife's name" plea. The family home even if "its all in my wife's name" is still an asset of the husband as well as the wife
Where the money has gone and who benefited is a question to ask the Administrator. The answer may well have a huge influence on the outcome. AUD 1,000,000 is a lot of money to vanish
One thing you can’t hide …Is MONEY, it leaves a very traceable trail wherever it goes
It may well be prudent to place a Caveat on the property until the mess is sorted out. This would not be an unreasonable thing to do in the given circumstance.
What caused all of this does not change the status quo, the South African move was a bold venture, and unfortunately it did not succeed. The product, from what I have seen on this forum, spoke for itself. In the event that it disappears from the market it will be missed.
The future- ???
Look at it this way, say AUD10,000 profit per car = 75 cars to clear the debt How long will that take
If it was possible to make 10,000 profit per car then for the 100 or so cars made = AUD 1,000,000 dollars profit
Then there is the money paid for cars not yet built AUD 600,000
Unless the company gets a cash injection of say 1,000,000 in the short term ????
The future does not look to rosy, but then stranger things have happened
Thank you for doing for free what we paid over $15K USD for a lawyer to NOT tell us. BTW Ron, any breakdown on our billing from that woman...or if we ask for a bill she will charge us for generating one?
Ron, I cannot tell you how I appreciate your generous time spent on this issue. I have no doubt that any positive results for us all will be because of your efforts. Too bad our dealers did not step up as strong as you did. Makes you wonder.
We will receive a billing break down. As far as new info from Trevor, what he has explained is the process and is what I learned from her as well, but I simplified when sending updates to the group. I think she did what she could with the situation and without her contact we would have not know about the creditors meeting whatsoever, since the creditors were informing all of us via postal mail - I received my notice on the day of the meeting. Since then we've received a good bit of information regarding options, outcomes, and Robert's happenings.
It was expensive, that is for sure, but with the timing of the entire thing and five days notice to organize I think we did fairly well. Getting someone on a case that quickly, from a forgein country, is typically impossible. And, had I had complete information for all RF customers, contacts, and info it'd been faster and quicker. But I did not have that and had to go through and manually contact each one after searching for info or waiting for them to contact me after reading on the forum. That really slowed the organization process down considerably.
I hope to be able to post the synopsis of info given to all of the group so that the general population can read and see some of the happenings.
First of all congratulations, Trevor, for a most concise and professional summary.
Secondly, I could now be putting my neck in a noose by involving myself with an issue that has nothing to do with me and which has no commercial benefit for me.
However, bear with me MY MESSAGE IS POSITIVE and if cool and calm heads listen to me I still believe, even now, that the situation can be rescued and put on back on track.
Fact one is that there is a factory in Cape Town with partly built cars and with staff and equipment that can continue on Monday, hypothetically, but with one proviso – SUFFICIENT WORKING CAPITAL. I find it most frustrating to walk in there and to find a morgue like atmosphere. It’s almost as if the partly built cars are conveying a message – we are here, please complete us, we have good homes waiting. US chassis numbers 108 and 109 are partly built. Ben Buchsieb’s no 110 is next in line with manufactured chassis, prepared body and many parts on the shelves. I really sympathise with Ben –so near and yet so far.
Another proviso is that (and without it there is no chance of a rescue package) that the deposits taken be refunded. For the Cape Town operation to arise like Phoenix from the ashes cars would have to be paid in full.
Having acted as Robert’s consultant from August last year until near the end of October it gave me the opportunity to get to know his car from A-Z, ie all the parts that go into the RF GT40. If there are cool and calm heads out there who can the see the wood from the trees, however difficult that might be under the circumstances, speak to me I would be happy to accept the challenge to re-group the team to make it work again. I would have the support of a friend and ally, an experienced finance man.
Robert Logan, I’m throwing a curved ball at you. Find the bucks, pay back the deposits and let’s start again. IT CAN WORK.
Andre - I've read your recent posts on RF with great interest. Bottom line, if I was privy to even half of what you've told us about the events of late summer/early fall 2005 I would have demanded a refund of deposit and run as fast as possible away from RF. I can understand you not wanting to hang yourself in the process, but surely you could have come up with some reasonable way to leak the information to someone. Regardless, we customers all should have known something was up when you disappeared from radar rather abruptly last summer/fall. Your vanishing was just another of so many red flags and warning signals. I am still kicking myself for not getting out of "Robert's scheme" earlier.
Now to my point; your latest post has me puzzled. Who is expected to pay any money in the hypothetical where you say "For the Cape Town operation to arise like Phoenix from the ashes cars would have to be paid in full?"
I hope you're referring to Robert Logan. Because if you think any of us customers (i.e. RF Suckers) would give another 2 cents BEFORE having a car delivered to us, I think you're out of your mind. My personal hope is that Robert is found guilty of trading while insolvent and loses all his personal assets (including the house which he put in his wife's name).
Please understand that I was in an extremely difficult position and in fact for a short while I got myself embroiled in a situation in which I made, I believe, a major contribution as Robert’s ‘eyes and ears’ (consultant) with little pay and then a kick in the teeth as described in my report on the whole sad situation.
When I quit on October 23 I was aware of on-going discussions and meetings to raise sufficient working capital including an application to the bank for a substantial overdraft. Two people had provided working capital in the meantime and right until Robert’s very recent visit there were discussions with Auto Futura/CAV to enter into a joint venture whereby they would build the cars and Robert would act as international salesman. This was in theory a brilliant idea but at the time I’m sure that AF didn’t know about deposits that been taken.
Even though I quit I was optimistic that that the required funds would be raised and the show would continue with cars being completed and shipped and everyone ending up happy. Can you imagine if I had posted alarmist and negative reports on a public forum or had even privately E-mailed someone to warn him of the situation and that E-mail had been copied to someone else with me being traced as the informer. I could have had a massive law suit around my neck for defamation and that for a business that had nothing to do with me. I trust you understand my position.
The problem with negative situations is that they tend to set off a snowballing effect that becomes increasingly negative so much so that normally intelligent and sensible people get swept up in the tide and cannot see the wood for the trees.
I 1988 I was in such a situation. My Beach Buggy building business was in trouble and I had to sell our house to settle my bank overdraft. I was depressed, I was thinking irrationally and acted in panic mode. Shortly thereafter two friends told me how easily I could have saved the house, but then hindsight is always an exact science! I mention my personal experience for good reason. I see a case of history repeating myself and as my house could have been saved I believe that CAMCO/RF can also be saved, even now at this late stage.
Right, let’s get positive and see if a solution can be found. There is however one proviso without which a rescue package would not be possible and that is that Robert Logan must refund all deposits. If I had to sell my house to get out of a mess I’m sure Robert can even if it’s in his wife’s name but then one doesn’t know if it has a large bond or what equity would be left after the sale. In my case the house was also in my wife’ s name and she agreed to sell. No, she didn’t kick me out and in fact we’re heading for our 40th wedding anniversary. Set backs test us but life goes on and often other and better doors open for us. Mr and Mrs Logan I hope you are reading this.
This morning I’ll meet up with my accountant buddy and we’ll have a look at the figures. Please remember that the proposed rescue package involves an order for six cars only. CAMCO received orders for only eight cars, two of which were shipped in kit form to the UK in December. Robert spoke of orders for 26 cars in total but no one in Cape Town ever knew how much had been taken in deposits and for how many cars. I emphasise again the rescue package would be for six cars only. An important consideration of course is to calculate the value of the work in progress and monies transferred and parts supplied by Robert also to be brought into the equation.
Mitch, I fully agree with your comment about further deposits. In an ideal world it would be great if the required working capital could be raised to settle initially all the creditors and then to complete the six cars without any further deposits being required from the existing customers. I’m sure that you, Ben and the others would be delighted if you received a message that your cars are ready for shipment with a request to now pay in full.
Sit tight, speak to you later today.
In conclusion I’m taking one helluva risk in communicating my thoughts on a public forum to you for the following reasons:
I have no idea of agendas, hidden or otherwise out there in the global village. There could be some that could get me shot for my well intended solution.
I could be accused of sticking my nose into something that has nothing to do with me, which would be quite correct.
I could have unwittingly transgressed some laws or rules in view of the liquidation situation in Australia.
HOWEVER, I DON’T BELIEVE THAT ANYONE SHOULD BE SHOT FOR MAKING POSITIVE SUGGESTIONS.
I’ve just returned home from a lengthy meeting with my accountant friend who gave me a severe reprimand for going public with my proposed rescue package.
He said that whilst he appreciated my well intentioned suggestions and my sympathy for the six customers with partly built cars the whole situation involving four countries on different continents is far too involved at this stage to consider so called rescue missions.
He also agrees with my comment, sticking my nose in where it doesn’t belong.
When I said that the frustrating thing is that there are partly built cars that could in theory be completed but as always human beings and money, or lack of it, have come in between, he said he agrees and absolutely shares the frustration.
I was only trying to find a solution to a negative situation. However, should there still be some hope, unexpectedly, I’ll let you know.
with all due respect, I am certain that us RF owners would have loved to have had a similar broad array of pictures from the RF SA/Camco facility such as those you posted regarding Superformance. Had we seen a similar spread for RF SA/Camco, I'm sure we'd have had a different outcome to our story.
I've always understood nothing travels faster than the speed of bad news. But in the GT40 community, despite the forum and it being tight knit group, it seems that axiom was broken in the RF case - the bad news was out late in 2005 but it didn't travel far. I do understand the position, but wish there could have been another way.
I have to agree with Mitch regarding "SOMEHOW" for you getting the information out that somthing was not right In SA. It seems now as you put it "putting your nose were it don't belong"
Your trying to be posiitve and basically give your possible soulutions to the remaining 6 cars. Certainly you can of put your nose were it did not belong way before all this happend. I can't believe with you background you had now way of getting "some information' to the right people.
I made a direct post regarding your dissaperance. There was "No" reply by you or Robert.
If you simply posted your departure letter would have been enough to let people know that there was a problem. I personally feel that you could have saved many losses if you were as savvy with regards to saving the remaining cars.I appreciate your threads with possible solutions but the only thing I feel your try to save is face and a friendship with a guy that basically painted you as
a incompetent with his company.
Now! It seems that you have access to the SA Facility according to your description. Can you please go back and take pictures post them to give a idea of what stages these cars are in. I think this will be helpfull to get an true idea of what stages of completion the cars and the facility are in.
I wish no hard fellings.. I just had to explain how I felt. I do not need a response. I would just like to see some photo's. Thanks