Service and set up help on Cleveland 351 V4 please?

[Ed Gibson]

Hi,

My MKIII rep has the following spec engine:

Ford 351 V4 with a Holley 750CFM Carb.
K32-225-4 Comp Cams
Offenhauser Manifold
Oselli Engine Services Fully rebuilt the engine some years ago.

Runs ok, but not been serviced in a while so needs doing on time rather than miles. Been told it should have Millers 20/50 Semi-Synthetic Classic Sport oil in it.

The car is said to have 425bhp, but in my humble opinion it doesn't feel like that much.

Questions are:

Any advice on servicing and set up and could this engine, with this spec create this sort of power, if so could it be an issue with set up?

I'm not a technician, so please explain it like I was your 10yr old son and we'll be about right!!

Any help on it would be great.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[Jac Mac]

Hi,

My MKIII rep has the following spec engine:

Ford 351 V4 with a Holley 750CFM CarbThat will be.Ford 351 4V, year, port size & combustion chamber design are important
K32-225-4 Comp CamsIf it is a Comp Cams its a '270H with 224° duration @ 0.050" cam lift with 110° lobe centers, 270° running duration.
Offenhauser ManifoldSome/most of these were single plane /dual port etc, not particularly favoured in the performance arena
Oselli Engine Services Fully rebuilt the engine some years ago.Just a rebuild? or was the makeup of the motor altered, eg, comp ratio, ignition etc.

Runs ok, but not been serviced in a while so needs doing on time rather than miles. Been told it should have Millers 20/50 Semi-Synthetic Classic Sport oil in it.

The car is said to have 425bhp, but in my humble opinion it doesn't feel like that much.

Questions are:

Any advice on servicing and set up and could this engine, with this spec create this sort of power, if so could it be an issue with set up?

I'm not a technician, so please explain it like I was your 10yr old son and we'll be about right!!

Any help on it would be great.

Thanks,

Ed

Hope you are/were a 'bright' 10 year old!, Clevelands came in Hi & low compression forms with several different cyl head/piston combos and any of these might have been changed at the rebuild time. That cam if it is a Comp Cam, is right at the lower end of the performance envelope and I seriously doubt that even with a really well built engine combo that you have anywhere near 425 hp........I see doug questioned it being cleveland or windsor... Cleveland has Thermostat in front of the cyl block, windsor in front of actual intake manifold, Fuel pump bolts one up one down on 351c, one in front, one behind on 351w.

 

[Doug S.]

Hi, Ed! You have my favorite Ford engine of all time, but depending on which version you have, it may not be much for the street.

Here is the deal with 351 Cleveland engines...there were essentially two versions, those equipped with the 2 barrel carburetor and those equipped with the 4 barrel carb. The main difference was in the size of the intake ports and the valves. The 4-V models had HUGE intake ports, which is great when the engine is trying to turn 7,000 RPM, but sucks at low RPM's because with all that volume in the huge intake runners, there is very little port velocity to help the intake charge get into the engine. To further complicate the matter, early 4-V engines had small "closed" combustion chambers, whereas later 4-V engines had large "open" combustion chambers to help cut down on emissions. Now, the 2-V engines had very nice size ports for street use (pretty large, even compared to the "other" manufacturers 4-V offerings), but large combustion chambers which means low compression ratios.

IMHO your carb is too large....a 600 or 650 CFM carb would probably be a better match to your engine size, regardless of whether it is a 2-V engine or a 4-V engine. Combine a large carb with a set of 4-V heads and you get an engine that is a pig off the line and only starts to wake up once it gets to 6,000 RPM.

So, the answer is, yes, your engine COULD have 425bhp, but it would all be at an RPM range that you won't use unless you have adequate road/track conditions to get it up into that high RPM range.

One of our members, Dave Wharren, has an ERA with a 351-C 2-V engine, equipped with RedLine stack injection (looks like Webers), and he comments on how quickly it hits the rev limiter on his MSD controller, so a 351-C can be quite a terror on the streets.

Do you know which engine you have, the 2-V or the 4-V? With the Cleveland engines it's all about building for the power band you'll use.....and with those huge ports in the heads, the 4-V model NEEDS to get up into that high RPM power band, even with a smaller carb.

Hope that wasn't too technical an explanation.....just curious.....not to try to insult you or anything, are you sure it's a Cleveland? Ford 351's are almost unheard of in GB, and the ones I have heard of were Windsors. If it is a Windsor, well, you can just forget almost everything I've said here.

Cheers from Doug!

[EDIT--I see Jac Mac beat me to it.....whatever he says, believe it. He's forgotten more about engines than most of us will ever know!!!]

 

[Ed Gibson]

Doug, Jac,

I'll have to have a read through the old invoices and see if I can gleen any more info re the way it was put back together. Trouble is it was years ago so I doubt they'll remember it at Oselli. I'll attach a couple of pics of the engine bay and a link to other pics of the car. One I've read the paperwork I'll let you know more. Hopefully the pics might help, but I'm sure it's a Cleaveland 351 4V. Ironically I've been worried about revving it too much past 5000rpm as not sure what I can take it to. General thought was American Iron V8's were not units that tended to go into the 7000rpm area.

If I've messed up with the pic attachment just email me at [email protected] and I'll email to you.

MobileMe Gallery

 

[Jac Mac]

Definitely a Cleveland, Intake manifold looks more like an Edelbrock Torker than an Offy, but pics are a bit dark to be sure.
Hydralic cams like that one of yours, which now that I am fully awake, is actually a 280° running duration, 230°@ 0.050",( not 270°/225°@0.050" as previously mentioned) has a reccomended RPM range of 2000/6000 RPM

Gotta go now, managed to flick the track off on the digger in the dark last night, couldnt be bothered fixing it by headlights so left it till this morning, guess what it did late last night, poured down---Im not looking fwd to this!!.

 

[Doug S.]

The "best" of the Clevelands from Ford were the "Cobra Jet" versions, or "CJ"'s. They were the closed-chambered 4-V versions and had 4-bolt mains, solid lifters and a hefty valvetrain. They also had the largest valves of the Cleveland series. They were the ones that could be built to run for long periods of time at 7,000 RPM. At one point Ford changed to the open-chamber head and still called it a "CJ", but that was the kiss of death for the 4-V version.....huge ports, large valves, and low compression means you don't go anywhere fast. I test drove an open chambered "CJ" Torino once....by the time it got through "stumbling" at low RPM, my 2-V Cleveland equipped Galaxy would have already been through the 1/4 mile, it was that much of a pig.

Other than finding photos taken during the recent rebuild, there's probably not much way to find out if yours has the open-chambered heads or the closed-chambered heads. I guess if you could get the oil pan off and see if the mains are 4-bolt or 2-bolt it might help, but I'm guessing the way you describe the performance it must be a low compression, open-chambered head.

On, the other hand, they are perhaps the "prettiest" engine Ford ever built, and they do seem to have a rather unique sound to them. They are a great engine, but I doubt that yours, if a "stock" rebuild, could make 7,000 RPM's or stay there very long.

There are aftermarket pieces available, here are some alloy heads that combine the closed chamber head and the 2-V size ports, sort of the best of both worlds for the street:

Aus Ford Parts - Aussie 351 Cleveland Specialists

If you were to switch to those heads, I'd suggest using this manifold (if you can get Edelbrock parts in England):

Edelbrock.com - Manifolds - Ford - Small-Block - Performer RPM - 351C/351M/400M

Contrary to the common "intuition", this sort of 2-V setup would almost always walk away from your current 4-V setup on the street or on the track.

Love those Clevelands, though!!!!

Cheers from Doug!

 

[Ed Gibson]

Thank you very much for all the info guys. Most of it is way over my head, but I will be able to use it as I progress. In terms of outright performance the car has plenty, and the sound is amazing. It just doesn't have that massive 'shove' that I'm used to with performance V8's I've had in the past. The previous owner told me it was a 4-V with 4-bolt mains. But who knows?? The car was built by Revival Motorsport but other than the manifold and custom fabricated exhaust I'm not sure how much they got involved with the engine. I just hate not knowing what I've got and if it's running as it should. I'll take some better pics of the engine so we can clear up the manifold issue and try and track down the info from the chap who had the work done on the engine, but that was 20yrs ago!!

Thanks,

Ed

 

[Mike Huddart]

Ed,
if you are stuck give me a call on 01270 811427 or [email protected], we are doing some work for a chap with a poorly Chevy near Leicester and will be in the area in the next week or so.
Mike

 

[Doug S.]

I found a bit regarding the various 351-C versions, there were more "names" than I remember:

351C Engines by VIN Tag Engine Code

Code Engine Type Comment
H 351C-2V Generic low compression 351C, '70-74
M 351C-4V Somewhat Rare, High Compression, '70-71 only
R 351C-4V Boss Very Rare, High Compression, Solid Lifters, "Boss 351", 1971 only
R 351C-4V HO Very Rare, Low Compression, Solid Lifters, "High Output" 1972 only
Q 351C-4V CJ Rare, Low Compression, "Cobra-Jet" May 1971/, '72,
Q 351C-4V CJ Rare, Low Compression, "Cobra-Jet", 1973-74, decreased performance, see 4V section notes.

So, the Boss 351 or the 70-71 4V would be the ones to want.....the CJ and HO not so much.

Here is a link to the entire article....some useful information there:

http://reviews.ebay.com/Ford-351-Cl...ts-amp-Information_W0QQugidZ10000000001410755

Cheers from Dugly!

 

[Ron Earp]

Q 351C-4V CJ Rare, Low Compression, "Cobra-Jet" May 1971/, '72,

Have (had) this one in the Torino. It was much like you said. Sort of dead below about 4k and then it'd wake up and do well, but still a batch of mismatched parts it was. Sold the motor, not the car. BB Ford being pickup up next week to take its place. I'm sure it could have been made to do anything I would ever want to do, but, I'd never had a BB in a project car and wanted one.

However, you can make some serious power with the Cleveland motors so if you have one you're set. My Ford engine man loves the things and builds them for many purposes including his 8s full weight drag car. Pretty impressive motors.

R

 

[Doug S.]

By "big block", Ron, you mean one of Ford's 385 series motors, right?

Sorta like a Cleveland on steroids!!!! Huge torque monsters! Does the Torino have a 9" differential? You'll need one!

How about a "build thread" on the swap?

Cheers from Doug!

 

[Ed Gibson]

The engine number according to the paperwork is FC831259DS and the V5 still says Ford Taurus if that gives any clues? Not sure if this in anyway would relate to the engine of course.

I'm not trying to make this into a 600bhp monster as at the end of the day it's a MKIII rep running on wires!!! But would be nice to have a bit more potential as at the moment I'd say it feels like about 300.

Ed

 

[Ron Earp]

By "big block", Ron, you mean one of Ford's 385 series motors, right?

Sorta like a Cleveland on steroids!!!! Huge torque monsters! Does the Torino have a 9" differential? You'll need one!

Yes and yes. No Farm Engines here. This 385 series (displacement a double dare secret) is built to turn up around 7800 RPM, like I'll ever do that. I might start up a build thread when we get on it in a month or so.

Ed your motor has more potential than you can probably imagine. The problem is building it in the UK. Ford stuff in the UK is incredibly dear, many factors more expensive than in the US. And while Cleveland knowledge is strong in the US for guys in the know, it is really strong in Aussie and Kiwi land. Those guys had the C motors for much longer than we did in the states.

 

[Doug S.]

The engine number according to the paperwork is FC831259DS
Ed

That's a serial number, I think.....unless you have an Australian engine cast in the 1990's.

The number you're looking for is a casting number....the Ford Cleveland was produced (in the U.S.A.) only during the 1970's, so the casting number on the block will start with the letter D if it is a U.S.A. engine.

Here is a chart to tell you what block you have once you can find the casting number, located on the engine:

351 Cleveland & Ford Block Specs

Look for the casting number on the block, on the right side of the car as you look out the windshield, probably hidden by the starter.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the engine hasn't had different heads transplanted, but getting the casting number from the block will be a good start.

Cheers from Doug!

 

[Jac Mac]

The engine number according to the paperwork is FC831259DS and the V5 still says Ford Taurus if that gives any clues? Not sure if this in anyway would relate to the engine of course.

I'm not trying to make this into a 600bhp monster as at the end of the day it's a MKIII rep running on wires!!! But would be nice to have a bit more potential as at the moment I'd say it feels like about 300.

Ed

Taurus was a Front wheel drive with V6 IIRC , so a bit of wishful thinking going on there, regardless of what you have the easiest way to make it get going is with a pair of Aussie 302 Cleveland heads suitably modded to reduce compression ratio, yep thats right reduce! These have 2v size ports which are more than ample for street use & everything currently fitted to your heads will/should bolt straight on ( unless there have already been screw in studs etc fitted.). However these heads like your current ones are a problem as the exh seats are not hardened for unleaded fuel, & we have had a few problems with fitted seats leaking from behind due to casting irregularties out here in NZ, the only factory iron heads for 351c with induction hardened seats was the open chamber/big port CJ & as Doug has mention these are not ideal so your next best option is the AFD alloys I think closely followed by the CHI 3v alloys ( I only put them in that order due to the raised exh port on the CHI 3v which would require your nice 180° headers be reworked ) Forget the Ford Motorsport SVO Yates heads etc unless you have big pockets due to special manifold, exhaust, pushrod, piston design requirements

 

[Wally]

HI Ed The Cleveland heads will have a 4 cast in them at the corner of the valve cover intake side. Sadly the casting # is on the bottom of the intake port and would require the intake to be removed to read them. From what I have here it looks like DOAE & D1AE heads are closed chamber. The D2AE are open ( I think D3** would be also ) ( I have the intake off My 75 Mach 1 for a cam change and was able to read the Casting #'s with a mirror ) The Cleveland I built for My DIRT Track car Dynoed at 535 HP @ 6800 rpm So yes the Cleveland LOVE RPM's But serious HP # creates oiling issues that must be addressed if they are to live at those RPM's