sl-c body quality questions

[Jeff]

My question is mostly for Fran but if anyone can enlighten me it would be great.

I found the SL-C while on another kit car forum and in comparing the two fit and finish if the body has come up multiple times and the SL-C is said to have much better quality than this other unmentionable car. My question is how is this achieved? is it a better gel-coat? better molds? simply better attention to detail in laying the fiberglass? Higher quality of material used?

I apologize for my ignorance but before finding the SL-C I was under the impression that all fiberglass bodys needed lots of prep and body work to have a quality product.

 

[Jack]

Hi Jeff, welcome!
My experience with the SL-C bodywork has been at the very least uncomplicated.
The big difference between it and the "unmentionable car" is the quality of the plug and mold making, and additionally, good attention to detail in layup stages. Mold seams are minimal and easily sanded & polished if you wish. Fit and finish are excellent.

Basic prep for paint is all that is really needed should you choose to paint the car. I have added fender vents, a couple of NACA ducts and I'm considering some other mod's of personal choice. IMO it is very well done.

 

[just ernst]

like all other jobs, you can do it well or bad,...polyesther is called -cheep-,....but where is the point to do it bad, because it is cheep,...if you work with perfekt molds,...do what must do for a perfekt produkt,...polyesther is a verry good material to make parts from it, you only must know how to do, use quality resin, quality glass-fabric´s, and must want to do a good job with high quality,.....some of the producters know this well and build perfekt body´s, i think RCR do it like this,...
ernst

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Jeff,

as Jack mentioned its all about attention to detail at the very beginning of the process.
Great surfacing on the plug/model and then tight tolerances on the multiple pieces of the moulds..dowels or guide pins to maintain good surface alignment.
Good mould prep and maintinaing a polished surface on the inner surface of the tools..
The careful part removal from the moulds once a part has been cured is also important...

So in essence care and attention to detail from end to end is the answer.

 

[Alex]

I saw these pics yesterday and couldn't help but giggle a little bit.

One of these is not quite like the other out of the mold =)

Hmmmmm.

Hmmmmmmm.....what can I say, I prefer wheel arches that are symmetrical and not egg shaped :shy:

 

[Mike]

Gee Alex, nothing like taking something out of context.

While I agree that there are issues with the "other cars" body work, you just posted a picture from a thread that was basically titled "Look at how jacked up somebody did this bodywork" and are passing it off as the "norm".

Real nice there buddy.

Here's what Shane, a recognized experienced builder of "the other car" and a vendor here had to say:

"Plenty more pics on my website. Wheels are all nicely centered in the body openings. These are all with stock, un-altered chassis mounting points and stock C5 suspension parts. To be honest, I really don't know what they've done to the GTM's that you're working on, but I'd have a tough time getting the wheels that far off-center of the body if I was TRYING to. "

I have no problem admitting when there is an issue with something, and I do admit that "the other car" has plenty of them, but this post of yours, Alex, is just, well, slanderous.

Can we all just try and be honest?

I don't really have guns in either fight, so it isn't really personal, but can we just all tell the truth?

 

[Will Campbell]

Gee Alex, nothing like taking something out of context.

While I agree that there are issues with the "other cars" body work, you just posted a picture from a thread that was basically titled "Look at how jacked up somebody did this bodywork" and are passing it off as the "norm".

Real nice there buddy.

Here's what Shane, a recognized experienced builder of "the other car" and a vendor here had to say:

"Plenty more pics on my website. Wheels are all nicely centered in the body openings. These are all with stock, un-altered chassis mounting points and stock C5 suspension parts. To be honest, I really don't know what they've done to the GTM's that you're working on, but I'd have a tough time getting the wheels that far off-center of the body if I was TRYING to. "

I have no problem admitting when there is an issue with something, and I do admit that "the other car" has plenty of them, but this post of yours, Alex, is just, well, slanderous.

Can we all just try and be honest?

I don't really have guns in either fight, so it isn't really personal, but can we just all tell the truth?

Actually, you DO have an interest in the fight, and it is disingenuous to assert otherwise. We all know of your participation in the PDG effort, and your posture on the FFCARS site.

Since you quoted Shane, I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him as well, in reference to the many GTMs he has built:

"I have always had to either add or remove material from the edges of the hood, or wheel arches of the body to get the lines of the hood to match the lines of the body. Same with the doors....same with the hatch. "

For the interested, here is the permalink: ? Any Educated Body & Paint Estimates with Gen2 GTM ? - FFCars.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

I've never heard of any SLC builder that had to add or remove material, from any of the body parts, to make them match up. Have you?

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the meaning of the term "slander", as it doesn't really apply here at all.

Finally, I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees the request for all of us to "...just try and (sic) be honest" to be dripping in irony.

 

[Shane]

I guess I'll throw my $.02 into the bucket. Concerning the top photo that Alex posted above.....Might be easiest just to read thru the forum thread where you pulled that pic from:

I need some insight on this other GTM we have - FFCars.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

I will be the first to say that that "other" car DOES require a considerable amount of bodywork to get things to look right. But....with that said, I will say that the problems you see in that photo are 95% due to the "professional" builder (and yes, I'm using the term "professional" VERY loosely there) who put that car together. That particular problem with the wheel being completely off-center of the wheel arch in the body is not something I've experienced in the 8 "other" of those cars that I've put together, as you can see farther down in that post.

As for Jeff's original question, Fran is 100% correct. It's not necessarily the quality of materials used (polyester vs. vinlyester vs. epoxy resins----or chopper-gun fg vs. fg matte or cloth). It has everything to do with how accurately the original "plug" was to pull the mold from, and how much time and attention to detail you put into making quality, repeatable molds to pull the parts from. Not saying the quality of materials has no effect, but not nearly as much as getting the mold right in the first place.

If you read thru that other thread, you could use it as a good comparison to what we're talking about. I'd like to think you could compare the "attention to detail" of the cars I turn out to what Fran puts into his kits.....while the other "professional" builder's attention to detail can be compared to the quality of the body parts you get with the "other" kit....but not quite at the same level. On a scale of 1-10, I'd give the attention to detail of the "pro" builder a 2, and the body of the kit a solid 5.

 

[Shane]

Since you quoted Shane, I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him as well, in reference to the many GTMs he has built:

"I have always had to either add or remove material from the edges of the hood, or wheel arches of the body to get the lines of the hood to match the lines of the body. Same with the doors....same with the hatch. "

For the interested, here is the permalink: ? Any Educated Body & Paint Estimates with Gen2 GTM ? - FFCars.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

While this is true, it is NOT to get the wheel centered in the wheel opening. Just to get the arch of the hood to match the arch of the body.....we're talking about adding or removing material in the 1/4" range.....not several inches trying to move the entire wheel arch. As I said above, that photo of the blue car is 95% the fault of the builder.....not the quality of the body.

 

[Alex]

I have no problem admitting when there is an issue with something, and I do admit that "the other car" has plenty of them, but this post of yours, Alex, is just, well, slanderous.

C'mon crash, let's not deal-rail this and turn it into mud slinging.

Fran explained why the difference in quality, so I figured since that was answered we could talk more about the differences in general.

The off-centeredness of the wheel is more-than-likely the builder, it doesn't change the fact that the wheel arches are, well, very offensive (atleast to me) (and if you note, my comment was NOT about the off-set of the wheels; it was about the locak of symmetry in the arch)

For example (and this is NOT in any way, shape, or form meant to pick on Shane - he does beyond phenominal work on everything he touches), if you look at this picture doesn't the front bother you? Wheel arches should be symmetrical, not egg shaped

FFCars.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum - View Single Post - I need some insight on this other GTM we have

No amount of playing w/ the car will fix that, short of sawing right into the arches and trying to smooth them out. SLC doesn't require sawing; perfectly symmetrical out of the mold.


Btw, something I was wondering Shane - you mentioned that the "bad body" Was a joke since they all come from the same molds. However (and all I have to go off of is my cobra, so perhaps this isn't a fair assessment), how come some doors fit nicely, and others are nightmares - for example, with my doors they didn't have a hope in heck of fitting so we had to glass them in and cut them back out (and I don't mean fitting in terms of 100% looks, I mean they just didn't fit period). Some people get a hood that fits okay, others get a hood that doesn't even look like it came from the same car. If all parts are pulled from the same mold, then the parts should be within fairly close tolerances of eachother, no? So if doors can range from fitting decently to not even remotely coming close, why couldn't the body be off? Heck, i've seen posts about people's mounting holes in the body being wayyyyy off on cobra stuff.

 

[Mike]

Thanks Shane for being honest. It's all I ask.

My "effort" on the PDG car extends to the point of PAYING to drive it, and helping Richard and the guys out when they ask me about something that I may have some expertise in.

Yeah, I helped set up the Mendeola Transaxle deal because I had a friend that was sponsored by them that gave me an introduction, and I in turn, gave Richard an introduction to Ian and Mike Mendeola. I never contracted directly with either of them, and have never signed a darn thing with them.

I have a GTM body that I am using to build a car right now, but it is no where near a "stock" build and so irrelavent to this discussion. Dave Smith doesn't even acknowledge that my car exists and I could just as easily call it a VBM as a GTM and I would be comfortable that I was being honest.

Fact is, Fran builds a nicer body. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it. It costs more, but it takes more to build it that way. Period.

His products are so nice, I will probably be placing my order for one of his bodies in short order here. Yeah it will cost me about as much as an entire GTM kit for JUST the body, but I also won't have months worth of work to make it into a SERIOUS race car body.

I really think people who make comments like that one made by Alex with the posting of that picture to go with it do a dis-service to not only the "OTHER CAR", but to Frans cars as well. There is a reason Frans cars cost more. It is a legitimate reason and can be explained truthfully without bashing anybody.

Dave Smith has his niche, and Fran has his. They ARE different, so can we just be honest and stop slamming each other?

 

[Doc Kaler]

Perhaps the variances seen in the GTM arrise from not only the mold assymmetry but also QC in removing the finished part while the FRP is still "green"? Other QC factors such as the shop temperatures, resin temps, resin/catalyst ratios, inherent shrinkage of resin perhaps all all up to a "perfect storm" contributing to the variances?

 

[Jack]

"Dave Smith has his niche, and Fran has his. They ARE different, so can we just be honest and stop slamming each other? Dave Smith has his niche, and Fran has his. They ARE different, so can we just be honest and stop slamming each other?"

EXACTLY!

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

So...good tooling made with care and attention provides good parts...

That about sums it up...

 

[Shane]

Alex wrote:

"Btw, something I was wondering Shane - you mentioned that the "bad body" Was a joke since they all come from the same molds. However (and all I have to go off of is my cobra, so perhaps this isn't a fair assessment), how come some doors fit nicely, and others are nightmares - for example, with my doors they didn't have a hope in heck of fitting so we had to glass them in and cut them back out (and I don't mean fitting in terms of 100% looks, I mean they just didn't fit period). Some people get a hood that fits okay, others get a hood that doesn't even look like it came from the same car. If all parts are pulled from the same mold, then the parts should be within fairly close tolerances of eachother, no?"

------------------------------------------------------------

I've never built a cobra before, so I can't really comment on that. What I said in that other thread is true for the GTM's. All of them that I've put together so far have been pretty consistent in the way that everything fits.....from the doors to the hood and hatch. Notice that I'm not saying that they are consisently good. I'm just saying they all seem to fit the same, and I have to do all the same "stuff" to every car to make them look right.

My point on that comment was more along the lines of what the photos of that blue car is showing.......both rear tires are crowding the front edge of the rear wheel arches. I can't see how it's possible that on that particular kit, the body was over an inch longer from the A-pillar on the body to the front of the rear wheel arches......or the chassis was somehow an inch shorter on that car. I don't care how bad your fiberglass molds are, you just aren't going to have measureable "inches" of difference from one body to the next. It's all in how the car is put togehter by the person building it. Same with the hood. How are you going to pull one hood from the mold that makes the wheel arch over an inch farther back on the hood than all of the other hoods pulled from that mold? I can look at those photos and I can tell you exactly why none of it fits right based on what I know about how everything fits together. Give that particular builder an SL-C and I can almost guarantee that it would turn out about the same way......bad/poor/unacceptable/crap.

Give two different body shops identical cars, identical primers and paints, identical paint guns and tell them you want a paint job and your going to pay identical $$$. Joe Slob has all of the same tools and time at his disposal as John Quality, but in the end, you wind up with two VERY different cars when they're done. Crappy mind-set/attention to detail/attitude has the ability to screw up anything, no matter how good the materials are that you have to work with.

 

[Alex]

I really think people who make comments like that one made by Alex with the posting of that picture to go with it do a dis-service to not only the "OTHER CAR", but to Frans cars as well. There is a reason Frans cars cost more. It is a legitimate reason and can be explained truthfully without bashing anybody.

Dave Smith has his niche, and Fran has his. They ARE different, so can we just be honest and stop slamming each other?

Who's slamming anybody. I honestly didn't even realize the wheel arches on the GTM were egg shaped until it was pointed out on the GTM forum; now I can't get it out my mind whenever I see one of the cars.

Since we're talking about body molds I pointed out that one looks symmetrical, as most cars do, one looks like an egg.

Please re-read what I wrote - I didn't sit there going 'hahahah, GTM is horrible. hahahahahahahah!!!11111oneoneoneoneoneone'. We're talking about body molds and I commented on the egg-shapedness of the arches. Granted the picture I used wasn't the best because it shows several other issues with that particular car.

 

[Jeff]

So...good tooling made with care and attention provides good parts...

That about sums it up...

Thanks for the response I really didn't mean for this post to go quite the direction it did but I appreciate all the feedback

 

[Shane]

Since we're talking about body molds I pointed out that one looks symmetrical, as most cars do, one looks like an egg.

Agreed there! I think the front wheel arches would look fine if they didn't have that big "flat spot" where the hood and body meet.

 

[Juice Lucas]

My question is... if you give someone $22k for a product.. you should expect that product to fall in line with what the seller is stating it will be. Claiming the "other" car is a 250-300hr build is simply false advertising.
Quoted from F5R FAQs:
How long does it take to build the car?
We have only built (and rebuilt!) two prototypes to date. Therefore, a lot of designing was done concurrently with the build which lengthened the build time considerably. We are spending huge amounts of our time developing/building the car, so you don’t have to! We estimate it will take the average builder about 250-300 hours (estimated) to complete the project.


So many inexperienced builders end up spending that $22k and say "Oh chyte, what have I gotten myself into?" Next thing you know you're spending 2k in hours just to get the vehicle to look good and have far exceeded your budget. Or it ends up in the "classifieds" section where the owner is selling at an extreme loss. At some point the consumer should demand a better product that falls in line with what is being advertised. Just my $.02...

 

[Alex]

My question is... if you give someone $22k for a product.. you should expect that product to fall in line with what the seller is stating it will be. Claiming the "other" car is a 250-300hr build is simply false advertising.
Quoted from F5R FAQs:
How long does it take to build the car?
We have only built (and rebuilt!) two prototypes to date. Therefore, a lot of designing was done concurrently with the build which lengthened the build time considerably. We are spending huge amounts of our time developing/building the car, so you don’t have to! We estimate it will take the average builder about 250-300 hours (estimated) to complete the project.


So many inexperienced builders end up spending that $22k and say "Oh chyte, what have I gotten myself into?" Next thing you know you're spending 2k in hours just to get the vehicle to look good and have far exceeded your budget. Or it ends up in the "classifieds" section where the owner is selling at an extreme loss. At some point the consumer should demand a better product that falls in line with what is being advertised. Just my $.02...

You make an excellent point. Just to further it, it's interesting that if you read on corvetteforum about the gtm, 95% of people on there think that their wrecked corvette+20k+200hrs of labor = world class gtm. And it's not just there - one of my friends was thinking about buying a GTM and honestly thought that it could be built for 35k CDN (keep in mind to build up here is more costly than down in the US, regardless of make)

But as said, it comes down to different niches and personal preference.