SLC impressions

[Ben Whittle]

Funny Ben.....I was thinking the same thing while reading JacMac's post....damn these cars have alot of rules to follow! More nuts, more bolts, more brakes,more wheels = more rules I guess!

For a bike - it's slap on a set of Galfer Wave rotors and "forgetaboutit". Actually stock discs work pretty good, the limitation for even a modern bike seems to be more from the calipers when pushed to the limit on track.

Yeah exactly, to be honest, I'm no BSB/WSB rider, stock discs are plenty fine thank you but it's hard to swallow the cost of those when I can get a pair of EBC (yeah yeah I know I know) discs for the same cost as ONE stock disc.

Even calipers are a bit of a funny thing, people will swear blind they need 6 pots (my J1 Ninja runs the stock 6 pot Tokico's) but honestly 4 pots will do you fine, heck Yamaha have been running virtually the same 4 pots on the R6/R1/Fazer/any other Yamaha they care to throw them at for the last what? 10 years? Seems to have suited them fine and they've been praised as the best brakes numerous times.

Interesting then that the 2009 R1 has new 6 pots.... a bit of a marketing thing me thinks..... mmmmm Brembo billet monoblocks......mmmm £1400 a side..... :shifty:

 

[J. Salmon]

I have heard the reason to spec CCB's is that you can actually feel the difference in weight. I did forget about that.

There was an R8 at the track last time with those carbon-mag wheels. But he had the steel brakes. Audi is just not importing the CCBs.

Also, all CCBs are not created equal. I had the opportunity to drive a Gallardo superleggera with the CCBS. It was horrific on the road in slow situations (like at a light). You push the pedal, and for the first inch or so it slows but very little. Then all of a sudden WHAM they are full-on. I image you could get used to it, but boy are they hard to be smooth with. Between that and the E-gear clutch, it won't make you look cool to the ladies, that's for sure. MUCH better with steel brakes and a proper manual.

 

[Ben Whittle]

Yes, it's what I hear as well.

Allegedly the SystemST CCB's are a bit of a different flavour and are more user friendly.

CCB's are still just too costly, rumour has it that if you need to replace ONE CCB on a Ferrari you actually have to replace both on the same axle oh and, if you are doing that, you have to replace all the pads at the same time as well.....

Audi seems to be the last of the 'super car' manufacturers to jump on the CCB bandwagon and good on them I say, at the end of the day, how many of their customers actually *need* CCB's..... if that means they can build a better car for less money then great, R8 vs Gallardo anybody?

 

[Donnie Barnes]

Yes, all CCBs aren't created equal. The ones on my Cayman (stock Porsche, but the car is now a Farnbacher GTR package with 400HP, full suspension upgrades, lots of stuff to lighten it) are awesome on the street or track. Most of its time has been on street tires, however, as the car was developed for the One Lap of America mostly...


--Donnie

 

[J. Salmon]

Another run at VIR - full critic mode

We spent another day at VIR, my dad driving the SLC, me driving my Lola. Since his run was right before mine, I had to allow plenty of time to get myself prepped and belted into the car. So basically after I helped him get set, I would have enough time to grab a sip of water and start going down my own checklist.

It was hot as snot. We kept the car under a tent with both doors open to keep it cooler. The only real problem we had all day was over-filling the tank, which led to some fuel spilling out the vent and a subsequent black flag. With a bit more driving, this problem fixed itself.

I want to be completely critical of this car. It does no one any good if we just stand in a circle and hold hands and sing songs about the SLC.

This car is a prototype, and so has some roughness to it. I will go on about that more next post. One thing to be sure of is that you address the heat. It was a hot day for sure. The SLC windscreen is a work of art (it is my favorite bit on the car). But it also directs all the air away from the windows. So even with them removed, you will not get any fresh air into the car. I don't think you will get any water in either, provided you are moving. You have to stick your hand out the window a good 4-5 inches before you feel any breeze. Plan for some vents.

AIR CON is essential, if you ask me. Just pretend it is a LeMans racer, and realize that it is required. (Closed cockpit cars require it. Now the open top version...)

The engine is behind you. It gets hot. The cooling tubes get hot. This car does not have adequate heat barriers between the firewall or the cooling tubes. In 20 minutes as a passenger my right foot was pretty hot, sitting right next to the cooling tube. The footbox was clearly heating up. The engine heat was also slipping into the central tunnel, and we think this was responsible for heating up the stick shift lever. In 25 minutes it got so hot that you really could not hold it with your bare hand. Again, seal it up really well.

Plan on spending time addressing heat. This is not a new thing, and it is not impossible to tackle. But many cars in history have had too little attention paid to this area and have suffered for it. More on that next post too.

When I finally did go out in the car, I admit I was terrified. The car is really fast, and as a passenger I was not 100% sure my dad was not going to kill us both trying to demonstrate its capabilities. We were in a no-passing group, so we were often following (too closely for my comfort) another car. Sometimes that car's line was...let's just say not to my liking. Dad still has a bit of a tendency to follow the car in front. This made for a bit of a "clencher" for me. Luckily, we were never anywhere near the limits, and so it really didn't matter.

The driving position in this car is set for someone really tall. It is not very good at all for either of us (5'10" to 6'00). We have tons of head room and both would prefer to sit up significantly straighter.

The digidash is really nice, and looks like it will make wiring really easy. The engine ran cool despite the heat and no oil cooler.

 

[J. Salmon]

Know the enemy

Today I spent some time with the car that always has seemed the ancestor to the SLC - the Ultima GTR. This car was built over a 3 year period by a friend of mine who is pretty hard core. His is black, with no AC (his motto is that real sports cars do not have AC). It has a 600ish hp Dart block chevy with a carb and a custom exhaust system. It is 2030 pounds complete.

Similarities to the SLC: fiberglass body, prototype race car look, clamshell doors, spartan interior with digital dash, front mounted radiator, no rear window, similar wheel/tire/brake dimensions.

Differences: The fiberglass is really a skin, very thin and flexible. The chassis is tubular steel with aluminum panels riveted in. The suspension is also tubular steel. Like the SLC, the Ultima is better looking in person than in pictures. It has an awesome view out the front of the car, the center of the nose slopes away so that you can see the pavement just a few feet in front of your feet.

The U-GTR is more expensive, but has a much less impressive chassis. It is very light, but I don't think it could possibly be as stiff. It does have some very finished bits, like the door latches and hinges, rear and front clip mechanisms.

This car was very nicely done, and I learned a lot about how to make a car come out like a race car, and not so much like a kit car:

Don't try to make a factory looking dash. Stay simple. Simple switches, logically and neatly placed.

Sometimes less is more with interior panels. The SLC demo has several, including the center console and panels that cover the front roll hoop / A-pillar. I think you have to go all or nothing. All means professional upholstery of ALL of it, or leave that crap out. A nicely painted roll hoop looks good. An ill-fitting cover does not. An exposed shift linkage looks race-car. A ragged cut out with no boot looks like an unfinished kit car. The SLC dash is a nice piece, and I think I would just paint it matte or satin black and be done with it. All thoughts of extra fabric in my RCR40 are now gone.

Ergonomics matter, and solid door latches and hinge mechanisms are essential for a finished feel. They are going to take an extra bit of time. Plan on it. It will make a difference.

This Ultima has similar heat issues to the SLC demo we have: black color, no air into the windows, no AC, radiator in front with cooling tubes to contend with. This car seemed to get no entrance of heat from the motor into the car. Sure, a no AC black car on a hot day with poor ventilation will be warm. But I could detect no increase in cabin temperature during the driving. Liberal use of thermotec or similar insulation is highly recommended. As is sealing the cabin from all entrance of air from the motor OR the front radiator area. It obviously can work. With AC, a properly built car will be just fine on a 100 degree day for hours.

This class of car is unmatched in performance. The owner of the Ultima was absolutely blown away by the chassis on both the RCR40 and the SLC. His comment: if this car had been available when I bought mine, I would have bought this instead. That being said, there is just nothing production that is going to drive anywhere near the capabilities of a 1000 kg car with 500 hp. That's Veyron power to weight, with half the weight to turn and stop. And the driving experience is like nothing else. Regular cars seem so insulated now as to be comical.

That's all for now.

 

[Mesa]

Even calipers are a bit of a funny thing, people will swear blind they need 6 pots (my J1 Ninja runs the stock 6 pot Tokico's) but honestly 4 pots will do you fine, heck Yamaha have been running virtually the same 4 pots on the R6/R1/Fazer/any other Yamaha they care to throw them at for the last what? 10 years? Seems to have suited them fine and they've been praised as the best brakes numerous times.

mmmmm Brembo billet monoblocks......mmmm £1400 a side..... :shifty:

I had a race bike updated to the the production 6 piston Tokicos when they first came out. Flat out horrible, they flexed so badly you never knew what were going to have for brakes from lap to lap. Marketing magic. I agree the cast monoblock Yammie 4 pot is a star performer, I ran those for a long time on the first year of the R1 with outstanding results. Great brakes. Ever since then Ive run brembos race only stuff, billetsb, monoblocks, individual puck...Ive used them all. My favorite "stock" caliper are the individual puck brembo superbike calipers that come on Bennellis, Yamaha R1 Specials and some Ducatis. Big power, best "OEM" offering by far.

 

[Dean Lampe]

Thanks for the update guys! That car is really growing on me.

 

[Doc Kaler]

J,

Thanks for the honest reviews. It's not too surprising however that ther would be a need for some AC and interior heat shielding. Those are certainly add-ons to my things to do list. Heat shielding was an issue I worked on for my Viper as well. I routinely ran the AC in it to prevent brain-fade from overheating. At the least, I will go with some gold foil outside the footwell and on the firewall, maybe more.

 

[J. Salmon]

J,

Thanks for the honest reviews. It's not too surprising however that ther would be a need for some AC and interior heat shielding. Those are certainly add-ons to my things to do list. Heat shielding was an issue I worked on for my Viper as well. I routinely ran the AC in it to prevent brain-fade from overheating. At the least, I will go with some gold foil outside the footwell and on the firewall, maybe more.

Certainly hope this is helping. All of us are spending a lot of time and thought and energy building, and I think it is important to see the bits that need to be done. Otherwise, you put the car together and get in to go for a drive... and you are sweating your butt off cursing. I am glad I went back and insulated the heck out of the center tunnel on my car, because getting access to redo it now would be a HUGE pain!

 

[Mesa]

J,

Thanks for the write ups. The lack of air coming to the open side glass opening is the most interesting to me, that knowledge will influence my build. Of course the car with all the interior trim pieces can look bad or good depending on the level of talent, money, or time spent finishing the car. I find as I work my way through the challenges of building and making sure my car does not end up with a kit car feel are well, challenging. I think how much easier the build would be if I approached it as your friend did "minimalist" and his car still has a high degree of finish, just less things to "finish". Building this thing out as a track car would have been so much easier and faster. Weatherstriping, heat insulation, making some sort of seal for body to chassis around the upper and sides of the foot box to prevent air leaks, plumbing air from the roof intake to the cabin......these and many other things on the ponder list to make this a quality street/track performance ride.

Fran's black car appears to me to be suffering from a lack of time, most of the parts are in there but the serious time consuming efforts of handling the details seem to be missing. Although I have never seen it in person (or any other completed SLC) the car looks to be a "test mule" as near as I can tell with many unfinished and constantly changing aspects. It appears to be a development platform rather than a finished car.

Thoughts?

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Rob,

that is exactly what the shop car is.....we test parts on it first...and are not afraid to let others see and feel what we are upto....

Its not suffering at all...(a harsh comment seeing as you admit that you have not seen the car..but hey.!).....you can be sure that customers would be suffering if we did not do this kind of thorough testing...

 

[J. Salmon]

SLC impressions: Summary thus far

OK, so here is a compilation of what we have learned so far:

1. The SLC is without question the best looking car in class, and arguably one of the best looking cars styled. The reaction is going to be traffic stopping, so be prepared to be seen on the internet. Personally, I like the lines unspoiled by the wing, but others really like it. I think it looks like an exotic without it, like a race car with it.
2. The speed of the car is just physics - big power, light weight. But the handling and feed back are on par with anything I have had the opportunity to drive. Get the best tires you can. You are going to need them.
3. The nose lift is key, and SOOOOO nice. Set it up to skim the ground, then lift and drive it right into a trailer or driveway. Get this option (it's easy to setup too).
4. It's a big car, and the cockpit is roomy. You will want to get the right seat, and get it tailored to your preferred driving position. I don't think you can do this until you are sitting in it. there is plenty of room for seat rails, except remember that you may need to adjust a 5 or 6 point belt each time you slide the seat.
5. The gel coat finish looks nearly like paint. The gaps are uniform on the body thoughout. If you compare this to any other car in class (primarily the FF GTM and the Ultima) they are a real step up. From what I understand, the GTM takes an incredible amount of body work to get it right. The Ultima's body panels are very thin in comparison, and feel more like a covering than body work. With the SLC, I think you will spend the most time on door hinges and latches if you want a real quality feel. I cannot detect anywhere that anyone did any body work on the SLC we have - the panels appear to be straight from the molds. I think the SLC would go together much easier than any GT40.
6. I wish I could use a Digidash in my 40. I don't know what else to say.
7. Personally I think AC is essential.
8. Plan to seal eveything up and insulate the cabin well, and then you will be fine.
9. I would look for a way to feed outside air into the cabin. You can drive with the windows not fitted and there is no buffeting at all, but you will also not get any air in. I think you could be in driving rain and no water would come in, provided you are moving forward.
10. GET THE RICARDO. At current prices, you are not going to find any transaxle that comes close to the smoothness of this gearbox. It's a bee-atch to fit in the RCR40 (but I am glad I am doing it) but it is easy peasy in the SLC. The Ultima I saw had a 17k built G50-52 with custom ratios, the billet shift assembly, and all the bells and whistles from CMS. Personally, I just don't think there is a comparison, the Ricardo is soooo much smoother. And the ratios are perfect for a high hp motor in a light car.
11. Go with a dry sump. You will be able to generate G's that are beyond the capabilities of a wet sump. If you are doing serious track time and using an LS7, I would consider a better pan like the one from ARE (see Katech's website). I am still up in the air on it for my 40, but I don't think my car will have the same capabilities.
12. Anything over 500 hp is for bragging rights only. The one we are testing is some 480ish at the wheels. It will light the 13inch Hoosier slicks at any speed in 1st or 2nd, and some in 3rd. that's not an exaggeration. Step all the way down on the gas in second gear, and the back end is gone. My buddy with the Ultima declared his motor to be the biggest waste of money on the car (he also had to go dry sump despite a race pan and accusump...on street tires and public roads).

Feel free to post questions and I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Hope the builds are going well!

-J.

 

[Mesa]

Fran,
I am not the best written communicator - I should have included - "if the car was intended to be a finished version or the car then it appears to be suffering from"...as you see I believed it to be a test mule for development purposes and understandably reason that as such it may not have all the time consuming details of finish worked out.

Not intend the comments to be "harsh" just trying to put the finish of the car in perspective relative to its intended role.

BTW: I have recieved, seen and stored a ton of pictures of the car although they are from different times in its development life.

 

[J. Salmon]

Mesa, you are correct. You have to look at this car at least somewhat as a test mule, though I think it is better off than that. For instance, the lift system on this SLC is not as nice as the later version that I have. But it works, and it works great. There are a few holes in the fiberglass that are clearly tests for parts that were later removed. These will obviously not be in delivered cars. The trim pieces in this car are not finished, such as the center console and the covers for the front roll hoop. My dad likes them like them, but I would not use them. If I were, I think they need to be nicely finished out in leather or ultrasuede. Even the center console - I may leave it off with exposed cables. The door hinges on this car are solid, but they do not hold themselves open, they have cotter pins you insert, and you can see irregularities where other hinge arrangements look like they have been tested. The cotter pins do not have the same feel as a door that opens and simply stays in place. I think this is or has been designed, I am honestly not sure. There is almost no insulation, so no wonder it gets hot. Does this mean it is a bad car? Of course not, if just means that if you don't put in any insulation it is going to get hot!
The hinge on the front clip is really sweet. The hinge on the rear clip needs to change some to let it be used with the wing in place.

Where the car is not so much a prototype is the drive. I just don't think anyone wil be dissatisfied with the handling. I think it is one of the easiest cars I have been in to drive HARD.

The windscreen is just cool.

When I look at this picture of a car I am pretty sure Fran did, it is a loooong way from the finish work on this SLC here, but is more in keeping what I think a well done car will be.

 

[Paul Osborn]

Re: SLC impressions: Summary thus far

OK, so here is a compilation of what we have learned so far:

[...snip...]


Feel free to post questions and I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Hope the builds are going well!

-J.

Very nice job. Good insight, and a good write-up.

 

[Ron Earp]

Mesa, you are correct. You have to look at this car at least somewhat as a test mule, though I think it is better off than that. For instance, the lift system on this SLC is not as nice as the later version that I have. But it works, and it works great.

What is the lift system and is there someplace on a build thread where I can see it? I have problem loading my race car now and a lift system, if it does what I think it does, would be great.

Ron

 

[Paul Osborn]

What is the lift system and is there someplace on a build thread where I can see it? I have problem loading my race car now and a lift system, if it does what I think it does, would be great.

Ron

When it's deployed, it looks like this (if you look closely you can spot some other nice features too):

 

[Doc Kaler]

Ron,

Fran's kit is much nicer than Dart's photo!! :thumbsup:

Search "lift system" under RCR Forum and there's a complete thread on the system.

Doc

 

[Howard Jones]

So I take it helicopter vents in the side windows won't pull in much if any air. I was counting them but if they won't work then it's good to know now before cutting holes in the windows.

How about the top, leading edge, roof vent ? Can I count on enough air inlet to cool the car on track if I open it up and vent all the air inside?

I would love to see pictures of the henge system for the front and rear clip. I don't think I will want to use them but I would like to see what you have.