SLC on Auction in Monterey

[Will Campbell]

Didn't the last two that sold on e-bay go in the 60's. I remember when the what is the REAL value of these cars thread came up long ago and some of us said that SOME owners were living in lala land and we caught some serious flack. Now we have SL-C's that were sold for a FRACTION (I am talking about the Rapier cars) of what they were asking. Now there is a bit of a back story to those cars but the price is was what it was and the public spoke loud and clear about what the real world value of these cars are. Heck didn't Breathless sell the one they had at less then they had originally wanted but close to 100K all in with all of their modifications? When people talk about building an NEW TO YOUR SPECIFIC WANTS SL-C 100K gets tossed around but NEVER more than that (for the typical build). It doesn't matter who built the car as long as it was built to spec (proof is all of those amazing builds going on now by private builders). I have plans to buy and build one but I for one would never pay what some are asking (and never seem to recieve) for these cars. Now if it came from FRAN as a complete factory build with a warranty then that might be grounds for the higher asking price.
Having said that I do believe that the SL-C will always be a car in the 60-75K range used (even with 1 mile on it) as there really is nothing today that checks so many of box's that petrol heads dream of in a car especially on that could be driven on the street. Fran did something with this car that I FEEL will place him in the history books of the automotive world especially if the thing keeps smashing records like last year and there seems to still be more left in the paltform!

The Rapier cars, despite what eBay may say, never sold through that source, thus the $60K number is incorrect, and so relying on that as a baseline or some sort of market value is wrong.

What one person may be willing to pay for one car doesn't make a market- it's just one part of a larger web of transactions. In the case of the SLC, the web is pretty sparse, but because of the kinds of cars these are, it's reasonable to expect a wide range of prices, reflecting the differences in the cars.

Even production 911s can have MSRPs that vary by more than $100K, and their resale prices reflect that. So, too, will prices vary for the SLC, when more of them come on the market.

That's why it doesn't add much to the discussion to say things like "an SLC will always be in the $60-75K range".

I don't think that Tim's car will draw $245K, but whatever it does finally sell for will be a function of one person's value for that specific car. Another one might be worth $60K- or $160K. They just vary too much for anyone to believe that a fair value can be found in a book somewhere- or even from trolling the net in search of prices.

 

[Damian]

So the Rapier cars didn't sell on E-bay because I remember the auction stating that the car was sold. I even spoke to one of the SUPPOSED PARTNERS (which Fran can verify since he called me after my conversation with them to enlighten me to back story) of Rapier who claimed the same (remember that they had a black one and a red one). If that was the case than you would be correct but all of my research is to the contrary.
Even if they were not sold lets look at what happened prior to rapier pulling the car. There were most definiately bids placed and if not sold it would have been because Rapier thought that the bids were to low meaning that they didn't agree ( I know what they had in both cars) with what the real world thought the cars were worth.
Now if we are NOT to take current recent used sales of the SL-C as a base price then what should we use. A made price that came straight out of thin air? The market how ever unkind is the real world and and thus sets the real world price. I notice that you didn't coment on Breathless Performance car that was sold? Like I said a HIGHLY TUNED SL-C IMHO is worth 100K all day long but a basic build or one not to the race car speck is just a 65K-75K car which is realistic when speaking of a used car. That's not to take anything away from the car or what it is just what it's worth when sold in the secondary market. Look at it like this how many incredable GT40 cars are for sale in the 75K range non-negotiable and still not sold. It's a buyers market NOT A SELLERS MARKET.

 

[Will Campbell]

So the Rapier cars didn't sell on E-bay because I remember the auction stating that the car was sold. I even spoke to one of the SUPPOSED PARTNERS (which Fran can verify since he called me after my conversation with them to enlighten me to back story) of Rapier who claimed the same (remember that they had a black one and a red one). If that was the case than you would be correct but all of my research is to the contrary.
Even if they were not sold lets look at what happened prior to rapier pulling the car. There were most definiately bids placed and if not sold it would have been because Rapier thought that the bids were to low meaning that they didn't agree ( I know what they had in both cars) with what the real world thought the cars were worth.
Now if we are NOT to take current recent used sales of the SL-C as a base price then what should we use. A made price that came straight out of thin air? The market how ever unkind is the real world and and thus sets the real world price. I notice that you didn't coment on Breathless Performance car that was sold? Like I said a HIGHLY TUNED SL-C IMHO is worth 100K all day long but a basic build or one not to the race car speck is just a 65K-75K car which is realistic when speaking of a used car. That's not to take anything away from the car or what it is just what it's worth when sold in the secondary market.

No, the Rapier cars didn't sell in the eBay auction. In fact, the eventual buyers of the cars -- and the Rapier IP-- are still offering them on eBay as recently as a week ago.

My point was that every car was likely to be so different that recent sales prices couldn't be treated like a KBB guide.

The Breathless car did sell, and Bob can reveal or not what he paid for it. You might be surprised if what you said is true: "I do believe that the SL-C will always be a car in the 60-75K range used"

I don't think you did say that a "HIGHLY TUNED SLC" was worth $100K- did I miss that earlier?

 

[Pat Buckley]

I'm curious - what kind of car do you own, Damian?

 

[Seymour Snerd]

I remember when the what is the REAL value of these cars thread came up long ago and some of us said that SOME owners were living in lala land and we caught some serious flack.

Damian -- you (singular) caught serious flack because you (alone) said that ALL OF US were living in lala land when none of us had said anything about "real value." You said:

"It's you guys that refuse to face the reality of the current market place. While it may be a precious item to you and worth every penny spent (TO YOU) it most def. is not to someone else. "

​

For some reason that I cannot divine you seem to be on a mission to convince us all that we all over-value our cars, without bothering to determine what we think that value is, and generally to lecture us on principles of economics at a high-school level of sophistication.

If you think it's a buyer's market, I suggest you stop wasting your time trying to educate a community of morons, and instead go buy something. Your lectures to us unwashed masses began over two years ago.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I think selling a custom built car is "being in the right place at the right time". A local custom builder bought a chopped 49 Merc for $70k. He gave it a paint job, interior work, and billet wheels. At Barrett Jackson it went into a bidding war between 2 guys. It sold for $320k. It was worth more like $140k on a good day. I built my Kirkham and had $104k into it. I drove it for 5 years and sold it through an agent in Germany. I recieved $109k, the agent got $15k from the buyer. Right place right time.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

So the Rapier cars didn't sell on E-bay because I remember the auction stating that the car was sold. I even spoke to one of the SUPPOSED PARTNERS (which Fran can verify since he called me after my conversation with them to enlighten me to back story) of Rapier who claimed the same (remember that they had a black one and a red one). If that was the case than you would be correct but all of my research is to the contrary.
Even if they were not sold lets look at what happened prior to rapier pulling the car. There were most definiately bids placed and if not sold it would have been because Rapier thought that the bids were to low meaning that they didn't agree ( I know what they had in both cars) with what the real world thought the cars were worth.
Now if we are NOT to take current recent used sales of the SL-C as a base price then what should we use. A made price that came straight out of thin air? The market how ever unkind is the real world and and thus sets the real world price. I notice that you didn't coment on Breathless Performance car that was sold? Like I said a HIGHLY TUNED SL-C IMHO is worth 100K all day long but a basic build or one not to the race car speck is just a 65K-75K car which is realistic when speaking of a used car. That's not to take anything away from the car or what it is just what it's worth when sold in the secondary market. Look at it like this how many incredable GT40 cars are for sale in the 75K range non-negotiable and still not sold. It's a buyers market NOT A SELLERS MARKET.

If you buy a basic SLC roller $44K
basic engine $5k
basic transaxle $7k
body and paint $9k
interior $3k
parts $5k

That comes to $73k + - with no labor for a pretty basic car. You could easily put another $30k+ into engine and transaxle, and a tons more into parts. I believe when I add everything up, less labor, I'll be north of $110k. I know Tim, his builder and the quality of the build. If the day and time are right, he should get $150k + for the car. It's not like you see these cars on every corner, but the economy pretty well sucks right now.

 

[Henry]

Well, there are a tons of cheap GTM's for sale............:lipsrsealed: Did I say that out loud...:uhoh:

 

[Justin]

Well, there are a tons of cheap GTM's for sale............:lipsrsealed: Did I say that out loud...:uhoh:

I was thinking the same thing. But I'll keep it civil in here...


Must....


Be....


Good.

 

[Alex]

Well, there are a tons of cheap GTM's for sale............:lipsrsealed: Did I say that out loud...:uhoh:

There's absolutely no reason for that at all - pure coincidence I tell ya!

 

[Steve]

Al Wohlstrom's exactly right. Right place/right time/right buyer and you can get a good price for a specialty car like this. Most of the time, though, that won't be the case and a seller will certainly have to be patient in this economy. The reality is the market for one of these isn't huge (unlike a 60's musclecar or an Italian exotic). They cater to a very specific (my kind of) buyer.

Alan, good to see you back in your usual personal insulting attack mode. Attaboy!

 

[Josh]

It is very basic. A market is determined by buyers AND sellers. If buyers only value it at 75k, but seller's value it at more, none will sell. However, at one point, most sellers will want to move on to a new vehicle or re-allocate money. At that point, welcome to the market. It will come down to how eager the seller is to move on, and at what point the buyers have an equal value, and at that specific equilibrium, you will get the real 'market value' of the car.

Asking 200k is laughable. Sorry, these are nice, but throw a 430 next to it, and I'll throw my money at the Scuderia. This is not taking anything away from a great car, but a 'kit' built by an owner or shop is never going to command a similar price to a factory built exotic. This is the same situation you run into when you modify your factory car. You may get a little more than what the stock cars are going for, IF you can find the right buyer and you are patient, but you will never, and I repeat NEVER, get what you put into it. In the end, this is a labor/hobby of love. It is not an investment, so consider the depreciation hit part of the cost of 'fun.' My 0.02.

 

[Justin]

In the world of Jeeps and Rock Crawlers, take the value of the Jeep, add the cost for modifications done, and divide by three. That's the value of said vehicle.

I put over $45k (total) into my TJ with Dana 60s, full armour, long arm suspension, etc. I got $14k for it. (The Jeep was 17.9k brand new)

I don't think kit cars (hobby cars, custom cars, etc) take THAT bad of a hit, but $245k is entirely too much. It might get up to $130-140, but that's about it. Just my $.02.

 

[Will Campbell]

There's absolutely no reason for that at all - pure coincidence I tell ya!

There is nothing wrong with that pic- it's just that the front wheel is going faster than the body. When the body catches up, it will fit fine.

Yeah, that's it!

 

[Henry]

It's an abstract piece of art that people pay big money for and have to create themselves.

 

[Alex]

Asking 200k is laughable. Sorry, these are nice, but throw a 430 next to it, and I'll throw my money at the Scuderia.

Not me. Every wanna-be baller today has a ferrari or lambo. I want something that's unique that requires effort and commitment.

 

[Henry]

I don't know I would make an exception for the new Aventador.

 

[Damian]

I don't own a toy car as of now. My M3 (ohh and notice that a few brethren from my BMW forum seem to have made their way here. Wonder how that all got started. Could be someone constantly posting RCR SL-C stuff over there) which is still on my CF manufacturer web site as their trophy car has been shown here and I had well over 100K into it was stolen and with me getting hitched last year funds have not made there way to Fran as of yet BUT THAT HAS SQUAT TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID!!!!! Notice more people are starting to come around to my side of the argument. Funny how that is working out.
Now I did say that a HIGHLY TUNED SL-C is a 100K car all day long NOT 200K+. See we are having the typical owner who THINKS his car is worth more than the rest of the world argument which PROVES MY POINT!!!!! At the end of the day what Fran has created is a car that any petrol head dreams of and HE has priced it perfectly. It's the owners / builders that seem to be pricing on emotion instead of the reality of the market place.

 

[Marcos]

New here but I've been reading for quite a while. I've had the fun of driving, building, and modifying my share of cars (mostly Porsches) over the years as have many of you. No two SL-c's are identical. This makes it impossible to have any base line value ascribed to them other the bare numbers that Fran generates from the factory. Obviously then, the fit and finish of each individual car can be quite different. If someone wants to sink 30-50k into modifying his Porsche so that I can buy it from him at a huge discount (he NEVER recoups his investment) why then that's awesome. For me. In my experience, most other folks would never touch his car precisely because of the mods. What I see as value they see as a liability. I have sold custom cars for more than I had in them, but the market is EXTREMELY narrow. Most of us here, the ones most interested in the sl-c, would rather build our own, and from what I have seen wouldn't have the money to pay someone else to build it if we wanted to. Those folks with the money buy Ferraris and Lambos with factory warranties and support. A generalization I realize. Don't slam me.

My point is that there are many factors other than the money/time/effort spent that determine the value of a car. Any car. If one of these cars sold for over 200k I say, ALRIGHTY THEN! Good for the rest of us... to bad for the sucker that bought it. (Where's he gonna find another like him to buy it when he wants to sell?)

 

[Seymour Snerd]

we are having the typical owner who THINKS his car is worth more than the rest of the world....It's the owners / builders that seem to be pricing on emotion instead of the reality of the market place.

Name them. (aside from the one that I posted at the start this thread)