SLC on Auction in Monterey

[John Ross]

Alan, FWIW my background is in economics, and your above post nails all the facts relevant to this discussion of what the selling price of a used SLC "should" be.

Many times in my life I have spent money to get something I wanted, only to be given the unsolicited advice that I would "never be able to get my money back out of it." One such case in point was in 1998 when I had a detached eight-car garage built at my house. Such a decision makes no sense to the person who is perpetually looking to buy and move into his next house, but it's entirely logical for the man who intends his next residence to be either the nursing home or the morgue.

As you so rightly point out, a buyer may fall in love with a particular house because of its layout, look, and "feel", and pay a premium for those things. Now REMOVE the normal real estate considerations of location, schools, neighbors, crime rates, distance from work, political climate, etc. and you have a perfect analogy to the value of the SLC and other custom cars.

The more specialized the item in question is, the more limited the pool of potential buyers is, but that can cut both ways. A guy who specifically wants to buy a lightweight, mid-engine sports car with a big American V8 that has high horsepower and relatively low service/parts costs doesn't have a lot of vehicles to choose from.

JR

 

[Dean Lampe]

I guess it isn't that complicated for me. If I wanted an SLC and didn't have the desire to build it myself or at least didn't care if I built it myself or not, I would look at the total for the parts specific to the car for sale and decide if I could build it for the asking price. There is also a premium for the the labor. In some cases it might be worth a little more to have it already done and you might be willing to pay a little more for that but for me, not much. I have sold a lot of kits that I have built myself and have not lost or made much money. I didn't do it for that reason anyway. But I would suggest that if you build a car that isn't to far out of the box and is well documented, you will get pretty close to your money back.

This isn't the same argument for a factory built car that you can just go buy at a dealer, these must be built by someone. There really isn't a new/used car market for these types of cars. There are no new cars on a lot that will depreciate the minute they are taken home. In a sense, they are all used cars. Who built it and how are much more relevent questions than mileage and model year.

 

[Jim Craik]

This is just slightly off point, but I have often wondered what difference there would be in value, when they stop making a particular car.

If SPF stopped production of the GT40, I would think that the value of existing cars would go up by a fair amount.

If RCR stopped production of the SLC, do you think that there would be a similar effect on values?

****************

One other thought. Fifty years from now, do you think that there will still be a large value difference between cars like the Safir Mk5s and the SPF GT40s?

 

[Dave]

The closest benchmark market you will probably find to the (future) used SL-C market is that of the Ultima GTR. Those can be had for as little as $40k to way north of $150k. The car is a proven platform, has been around for a long time now, and there are hundreds of completed builds out there and almost always a few for sale at any given point.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

I have sold a lot of kits that I have built myself and have not lost or made much money. I didn't do it for that reason anyway. But I would suggest that if you build a car that isn't to far out of the box and is well documented, you will get pretty close to your money back. .

My intuition is that it ought to be that way, but I've seen so few cases (in public, so to speak) that I felt it too optimistic to use a derating factor higher than 75%. In the case of an SPF for example, at cost would be at least ~$100K. OTOH, I can certainly imagine myself buying a well-assembled kit "at cost". Of course the other problem we all have is that kit/TK-minus sales are mostly private, so there's hardly any data to go on.

 

[Dean Lampe]

The turn key minus cars may be a whole other group as far as value. I haven't had much experience there.

 

[Jimmy P]

Its important to note, and I wish more would do this before responding, I've read each post on this topic. Only then can one give a response on topic IMHO. In this instance I'm posting a response I made to the GT40 being offered in NZ in which they're asking $260,000.00 (US). I love the car but my post speaks to the dilemma one faces when considering a purchase of a GT40 (or an SLC) and I think that same dilemma fits here. I wrote:

"I'm glad I'm not wealthy enough to have to think about this dilemma

.....at the top of the list you have an original GT40 starting @ over $2 million plus.....and then there's the X-Mcqueen car (GT40) going on the block later this month for a rumored $5-8 million plus,

Then you have:
A Holman/Moody Factory GT40 MkII for @ 600K US
A Gelscoe Factory Mk I for @ 500K US
A MkIV for @ 800K US
The above NZ GT 40 MK I for @ 260 K US
A SPF GT 40 R for @ 150 K US

....and many other makes falling somewhere in that 100-150K range depending on the quality of parts used."

The SLC market is still in its infancy. I'm sure the SLC market will fluctuate like any new car company's products. Fran has built a formidable street and race car and its beginning to get noticed at the track and starting to create its own history. The GT40's history is firm and established (although not based on replica's racing) and its racing history is one of the many reason's I bought mine. Its historical, its iconic, its stunning to look at and its unique. I could have bought any number of historical "makes" but none of them moved me like the GT40 so I dove in.

I would think anyone considering a SLC is going to weigh in other factors. I'm sure they will give thought to other makes they could buy for the money and many will shy away from pulling the trigger but some will look at SLC for what it is.....a well designed car with unlimited potential. The buyer will ultimately determine how much is "enough $" and eventually the buyer(s) will set the market. Its just too early to tell at this point. Let the seller ask what he/she wants....its his/her right...but he/she will soon find what buyers are willing to pay and thus will set the trend toward reality.

245K is high (very) IMO. In this instance for that money I'd buy a pristine Dino 246 GTS and pretty much know I was making solid investment in a car that will always be sought after by collectors and thus protecting my investment. But if I already have a 246 in my garage (I don't...damn!) or many other cars and money is no object I might just spend anything to get what I want and maybe that's who the seller is going after.

There are some exceptions to this thinking....The Pagani Zonda comes to mind. You could have bought one years ago for about 800K drive it for some years and probably still get 800K for it today. Why is that? My response because Pagani built a masterpiece and it will remain a masterpiece for years to come. Again IMHO.

An SLC doesn't have the panache of certain F-Car's, P-car's, etc....yet. But who know's.....someone please post what the car sells for. Just my .03 (inflation :shy . Thanks

 

[Mesa]

One of the challenges to a car like this is that ANYONE can build one. The quality of the builds are going to vary widely and the value could/should follow the same pattern. The good (pricing) thing about (say) a Superformance is that the hard parts of the build are already done, taking most of the quality variables out of the equation. One can build this car in 200 hours or they can build it in 2000 hours..... there would/could be a massive difference in fit, finish, sealing, noise and features between two such efforts.

 

[bob d]

I am agreeing with Mesa, the build is all what the car is. I want to straighten out one thing, I bought the car from Ernie at Breathless performance, I did it for several reasons. I could have bought a Ferrari or a Lambo but the SL-C just drew me to it where I just had to have it, to me it was the exact car I have been looking for ,for a long time. I like the prototype style. The build and the components are the key. Any body can put the car together and have nothing but problems, how much is a car like that worth. Then you take a professional shop on the other hand and they are not even close to the same in quality for many builders. I am not saying that it only takes a professional shop to put the car together, I feel I have done as good of a job as any shop, so don't anybody start on I am saying a professional shop is the only one to put a car together right. I have seen many builds out there on the SL-C for the pictures and most of them are a real first class job. The other problem is getting your car dependable and working out all the kinks. You guys with the newer cars are not going through the learning curve that we did when they were first out. With that, I compared the SL-C to a comparable car, kit or not. The SL-C has better numbers when a real high Hp motor is put in and the care is taken to add sway bars, good shocks, set ups etc. and when you compare the price the SL-C is way ahead. The final cost is way under the competition, the repair bills are reasonable compared to a Lambo or Ferrari or Aston Martin. I have been out with my friends with Lambo's and Ferrari's and when people walk over to look at the cars they usually walk to mine first and ask the most questions about mine. How much is a used car worth, give it time for people to get familiar with the car and what it can do, along with a better economy it will come up to what it should be, my opinion a car with a good well built motor with 650 Hp or so, a Ricardo gearbox , leather interior should bring 150,000 used. I know this is a number that no one else will agree with but when you compare a used Ferrari or Lambo that number is well in line. This means it has to be a well built car, not just put together. I have had people come up to me and say they were looking at a SL-C and thought they could build it for 65,000 or so. I told them they probably could but I have well over 125,000 in mine, it is just in how far do you want to go with the build, quality of components, and how much it will cost to debug it. by the way when I was out with all the other cars the Ferrari was the first 458 Challenge car to come into the US. So when people walked over to my car first, that is saying something, its all in the right buyer, someone that knows what a real supercar costs and what it takes to maintain it, The SL-C is by far way undervalued if you sell it for less than 100,000. That's just my opinion

 

[Ted - LS MAN]

How much for that SLC?
$245k
That's way too much.
Well then make me an offer.
I'll give you $145k
Sold.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

The turn key minus cars may be a whole other group as far as value.

That's a good point and TKM cars should probalby not be a part of this discussion. They're close enough to turn-key (eg. "normal") cars in terms of buying process, etc., that they may carry the "it has to depreciate after the first sale" psychology, while a true kit might not. That might well invalidate my 75% (or whatever) derating idea, leaving you with valuing build labor more highly and aligning with Dean's experience of 100% of costs, and maybe more. I wonder, if we threw out SPFs, whether the RCR, CAV, ERA, etc. GT40 record supports that. Or same question for non-SPF kit-based Cobras. Even better Ultimas as pointed out above. If so those ratios might serve as an approach to establishing a starting point for pricing an SLC.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

This is just slightly off point, but I have often wondered what difference there would be in value, when they stop making a particular car.

If SPF stopped production of the GT40, I would think that the value of existing cars would go up by a fair amount.

If RCR stopped production of the SLC, do you think that there would be a similar effect on values?

One other thought. Fifty years from now, do you think that there will still be a large value difference between cars like the Safir Mk5s and the SPF GT40s?

Really intriguing questions. On the first one, do we have an precedents? I've been trying to think of kit cars that went out of production and might serve as an example but not getting far. And of course per Dean's comment we need to be careful comparing kit and turn-key minus cars.

Re the SPF/Safir question: let's suppose the answer is "no." Then the next question is "what happens: does the Safir sink to the SPF value, or does the SPF rise to the Safir value?"

 

[Doc Kaler]

Alan,

Perhaps the ERA Grandsport (out of production) could be used as an example?

 

[Roger]

At the end of the day, it's individuals buying highly individual cars. There's always the chance of someone seeing exactly what they want and having the cash to pay what others may consider an inflated price. It's the people putting the cash down that fix the value, at least to themselves and the seller. At least at auction, you know that there is at least one other person willing to pay close to the sale price.

For this specific car, IMO there's virtually zero probability of it selling at close to $245k. Was it this car that was previously for sale at $150k?

 

[Seymour Snerd]

At the end of the day, it's individuals buying highly individual cars.

True, but as kit-car enthusiasts, unless we live forever, our cars will eventually have to be sold. So the question that arises is "if you're selling a kit car you built, how do decide at what price to offer it?"

 

[Alex]

The SL-C is by far way undervalued if you sell it for less than 100,000. That's just my opinion

I agree; request to ban anybody who disagrees

The problem with lots of these cars is people sell them at fire sale prices to move them. It's all about finding the right person - I was offered 95k for my ffr cobra at one point (which I have about 80-85 into, so I could have easily turned a profit) but I didn't sell because it's my baby. Most people on the other forum would probably have a massive errection if somebody offered them that for their car.

 

[TimB]

Most people on the other forum would probably have a massive errection if somebody offered them that for their car.

Correction "Most people on the other forum would have a massive deposit in their bank account if someone offered them that for their car"
I could always build another car I am happy with.......

 

[Roger]

True, but as kit-car enthusiasts, unless we live forever, our cars will eventually have to be sold. So the question that arises is "if you're selling a kit car you built, how do decide at what price to offer it?"

Yes, but I think that it's almost impossible to find that value - the market is just too small - it's a probability game. You need to be lucky and find people that want (almost) exactly your car and will pay a premium price to get hold of it. The higher the asking price, the less likely that becomes, but you can get lucky. It comes down to how quickly you need to sell and how well you can present the car (something which only the builder usually knows enough to do).

When any car has been for sale for 6+ months, I conclude that it's over-priced and that the seller doesn't need to. Unfortunately, that only helps establish what price is too much, not what's reasonable.

 

[Alex]

Correction "Most people on the other forum would have a massive deposit in their bank account if someone offered them that for their car"
I could always build another car I am happy with.......

Not I - I only want to build each 'type' of car once, and horde it. it's my baby.

 

[Dean Lampe]

Alan, I'm not sure there is answer to the value of a used SLC and I just don't think it can be compared to any other car just because all have different circumstances surrounding them. Cobra's ad GT40's have suffered lately because I believe there is a lot more supply than demand. My last cobra was really nice. It would cost $65,000 to build at least but I sold it for $50,000 because that is what the market says a nice fiberglass cobra with an aluminum 427 is worth today and it was a very nice car! You can get a nice GT40 for $60,000 to $80,000 today. I sold my SPF GT40 which was almost brand new for $75,000. That's what it was worth on that day but I had a nice RCR GT40 that appealed to the race crowd and it sold for $125,000 six months earlier.

These markets are crazy. My SLC is a race car. It could become a street car but right now it is meant to be on the track. It would sell for around $75,000 I would think. It is one of the fastest cars on the track everywhere I go and it would appeal to a different buyer than a street car. I think value is determined by what else you could buy for the same amount of money. On the track, you will not catch an SLC built to run for $75,000. If you're a track junky and you want to go fast, its a value. The Vettes and Vipers that run SLC lap times are $100,000 plus gutted out shells turned into track cars. What value does that have? I don't know. I guess it depends on what it is worth to finish second behind the SLC! :thumbsup: