Synthetic, or is it SIN-thetic

[Steve C]

FWIW Crane Cams position is:....For rollers no need to worry any good oil OK (and for this reason in my latest build I went w/a hydraulic roller)......for flat tappets along with the "proper ammt of assy lube(not too much/not too little" use Rotella for break in ONLY....then switch to any good oil....Their position is that once a flat tappet is broken in and able to generate rotation regular lube is sufficient and better for a gas engine than constant use of Rotella....Any oil industry chemists out there that can confirm this??? Steve

 

[Jac Mac]

Flat Tappet cam - Mineral Oil, Roller Cam - Synthetic.( Thats on Race Cars )

OHC Late Model Road Cars- Semi Synthetic.
V8 Hi Po Road Flat Tappet-Mineral or Semi Synthetic.
V8 Roller-Semi or Full Synthetic.
Older Stuff with Wide Rings etc -Mineral.

Have had ugly experience's with AMSOIL & Valvoline.( Both Product and Agents).

Jac Mac

Sandy,Russ & others,

Mainly on the camshaft manufacturers recommendation for the Flat( Mineral) v Roller (Synthetic). Apart from the zinc factor it seems that the synthetic is just to slippery for flat tappets.

OHC LM road cars: These generally have a larger dia cam follower than their V8 counterparts along with reduced mass & spring pressures. (The larger dia follower gives the lobe more effective leverage to rotate the follower in its bore ).

V8 Hi Po Road FT, Have had excellent results with both.

V8 Roller, Only reason some use Semi-Synthetic is cost and need to change oil more frequently where cars are fitted with radical camshaft and street operated, with fuel contamination etc ( Read -dumb twits that insist on cruising around at 2500rpm with tunnel rammed 302 with cam rpm range of 3500+)

Older Stuff, Again the Synthetic is just TOO slippery for those old rings and along with wide clearances etc its not worth the trouble.

Now the Ams Oil- Valvoline deal. The AMS-Oil was a case with a local drag racer who had been given the Oil as part of an sponsorship deal. All was fine until he reqd some more oil to meet requirements. This was added to the car and at the next event the engine suffered massive bearing failure. On teardown the oil was a ' goopy' mess. Fuel contamination was initially blamed & would have remained so but for a simple fluke. On starting the long task of rebuilding his engine the owner emptied the remnants of two containers into a tub to pre-soak his lifters,chain etc. On doing so he noticed a slight colour difference between the oils from each container along with the fact that they did not appear to mix, a bit of stirring only thickened it up a bit like porridge!

To cut a long story short it was found the colour additive's of the two oils were the problem. ( Same grade/make oil- just different batch's & obviously colouring agents ).

The Valvoline case was along similar lines ( One product line being superceded by another ) except I caught it before we ran the car concerned.

For many years now I have used a straight 30 Diesel oil for initial run-in of new camshaft/rebuilds etc along with light springs( FT - only) etc. Since adopting that policy I do not recall a premature cam failure from what I would consider a lubrication problem.

I should mention that I go to some length to ensure that lifter bores etc are square and cut oiling grooves etc in each lifter bore, along with stand pipes to retain oil around the base coils of the valve springs etc.

Jac Mac

 

[Sandy]

Jac Mac -

Thanks for the insightful update!

Coloring dye in motor oil, next step with be 'natural organic color' synthetic, but it will be an up charge I run royal purple and hate the idea of purple oil, or red oil for that matter. I guess you need something for your product to stand out, oh well, thinking more about Mobil 1 15w-40 Extreem now.

For the flat tappets, not that adds up, the oil is too slipery to spin the lifter. Never looked at it from that angle.

Just a question, what about using the diesel oils in race cars? It looks like the Delo (dino) and Delvac (syn) have a good amount of additives, not sure what else for the Diesel's would be bad. I also like the nice large containers they are easily found in for trucks, and generally not crazy priced.

Sandy

 

[chuck smith]

my guess is that there is nothing wrong with deisel oil in any engine,however,the EPA may frown on it so companys have to suggest switching to an approved oil, thus the Comp Cams advice. I run Shell Rotella in my FE and Redline in my GT40 with the roller 302. There is also the argument that break in with synthetic may not allow ring seating,again because it is too slippery. That was a very good article in the link above on the Porsche oil use.

 

[Jac Mac]

Jac Mac -



Just a question, what about using the diesel oils in race cars? It looks like the Delo (dino) and Delvac (syn) have a good amount of additives, not sure what else for the Diesel's would be bad. I also like the nice large containers they are easily found in for trucks, and generally not crazy priced.

Sandy

The Diesel Oils have quite high detergent values, which can cause problems if used in high mileage road engines and would/should be unnecessary in a good race engine. Also there could be some constituents to the diesel oil that may be harmful from a detonation point of view if your engine is a bit on the loose side.

As Chuck mentioned this is all being driven by enviromental concerns,I cannot help thinking if the amount of waste/pollution created every time a motor/camshaft has to be replaced/rebuilt is greater than the amount that would have been generated by that motor had the 'zddp' additive been left in the oil and the motor last a longer period of time.

Slightly off Topic has anyone had any actual experience in using the shubeck flat tappets/rollerlifters? indexNEW

Jac Mac

 

[David B]

I use and abuse Mobil 1 15w 50 @ (when I can actually get it this high) 230 deg F. I change it every 750 miles, I know, I know, its expensive and overkill, but I figure for the $9K motor I have its cheap insurance. After 5500 hard street miles there is nothing on my mag. drain plug, and my filters are absolutely spotless.
S

Hi I'm new and this is probably no way to introduce myself but i couldn't help it I have been a fan of the GT40 since it's creation in England-not far from where I lived at the time.

My background is 30 years involvement in historic and vintage racing-both prepping and driving cars and I was service manager for VW/Audi/Porsche for several years. I have to say the gentleman I quoted above gets my full support.

It doesn't seem to be generally understood that synthetic oils are just mineral oil that has been refined to a point that it could never reach naturally. It is not some witches brew created out of base chemicals by weird scientists. In the case of Mobil1 this means the base oil goes through the refining process four times. In the case of some other sythetic oils, ie Castrol Syntec, it goes through three times. Mobil sued Castrol when they first introduced Syntec saying that it was not synthetic since Castrol did not refine it to the degree that Castrol did--Mobil lost....

Oil is a cheap resource (Right now!), changing it frequently will help your engine last much longer--and that goes double for your regular street car-inspite of what the manufacturers say--change the oil frequently!!

Hi everyone:chug:

 

[Sandy]

The Diesel Oils have quite high detergent values, which can cause problems if used in high mileage road engines and would/should be unnecessary in a good race engine. Also there could be some constituents to the diesel oil that may be harmful from a detonation point of view if your engine is a bit on the loose side.

As Chuck mentioned this is all being driven by enviromental concerns,I cannot help thinking if the amount of waste/pollution created every time a motor/camshaft has to be replaced/rebuilt is greater than the amount that would have been generated by that motor had the 'zddp' additive been left in the oil and the motor last a longer period of time.

Slightly off Topic has anyone had any actual experience in using the shubeck flat tappets/rollerlifters? indexNEW

Jac Mac

Thanks Jac Mac, good info to suspect the diesel oil, too bad, would be a nice change from getting ripped of on 'Racing' synthetic.

For the lifters, I'll try a set if someone needs a set of new Crower Ford roller lifters I have a motor going getting together now, and would give them a try. They very look interesting indeed!

 

[Charlie Farley]

Gentlemen,

What an excellent thread. I read it at 4 am, couldnt sleep.
David B makes an interesting observation viz Synthetic v Mineral,
that puts a difference slant on things.
For my 2 cents worth, nothing seems to smell as good as a hot motor
running Castrol R . Why is it so popular in old motors ?

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Jac Mac,

Thanks for pointing out this new design! (At least I hadn't heard of it before.) The Schubeck design sounds very intriguing and the solution seems very reasonable. I will definitely follow their use and presumed success.

In the meantime, I am using what is, IMHO, the only other and best existing alternative to the problem: the Crower High Pressure Pin Oiling roller (usually listed as Crower Roller w/ HPPO option.) This is the predominant lifter used in stock car engines and I doubt anyone is harder on lifters. Granted they change the lifters frequently, but you don't hear about them grenading very often either. I think this solution is heads and shoulders above the exterior oiling channel which was first introduced by Isky, if I am not mistaken.

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Jac Mac]

Jac Mac,

Thanks for pointing out this new design! (At least I hadn't heard of it before.) The Schubeck design sounds very intriguing and the solution seems very reasonable. I will definitely follow their use and presumed success.

Regards,
Lynn

Lynn
I only tripped over the schubeck site by chance & was intrigued by the claims for the Flat Tappet 'composite' Lifter and the ability to reuse or swap around position,s in the motor with no ill effects. The Roller design already has a precedent as many OHC designs use this principle where the cam journals run in a pressure fed 180deg bearing or directly on the alloy head casting. I believe the Zoche Aero Diesel use's the same principle on its Connecting Rods.

As the camshaft/Lifter contact area could be considered one of the most critical lubrication points in your engine it will be interesting to see where these developments lead in cam design etc. If the need to run a mineral oil is removed and these designs can stand extra loads it wont take the cam designers long to increase lift rates etc.

Cheers
Jac Mac [ That 900+ cu in would fill in the engine bay of a GT40 nicely ]

 

[Sandy]

The schubeck stuff looks interesting, more so the composit flat tappets, which are banned by some of classes and as I recall the engine masters challenge. I found some complaints about initial quality of some of Shubeck's parts (Initial problems were sizing and tollerance related, just didn't fit, and long shipping times to get parts) but that was in some threads on another board from 2003. Most said good things about both the rollerX and composite lifters. Some did have so so results with the 0 Lash hydo's but most still were good reviews.

My only concern with the RollerX lifters (well besides the price) is do they need constant pressure, as I recall that (and Jac Mac, othres can comment) the ford lifters are a source of potential oiling issues, but not sure. The original SVO block I had done was done with oil feed from the main galley (back of block) to the front 2 sides in the lifter area. I have since removed this, and not sure if it matters with the SVO block (I also noticed one external line on Bernards SVO block as well). I may give him a call next week to just find out about them and real lead time.

Yes Jac Mac, I'll have one of the DOHC 900 cu" engins but save it for something that needs it, like a street car, SS Chevelle or Camaro, but might need a hood scoop for the 13+" deck height

Sandy

 

[Sandy]

Went to Target over the weekend, and walked the automotive isle, they had various Mobil Synthetic's on the shelf, including 15W-50 Extreem, which was about $5.49 a quart. Quite a bit less then RP Racing, and other colored Synthetics. I'm still intersted in trying the Delvac, but have not seen pricing on it yet...

Sandy

 

[Sandy]

An interesting publication the BIBLE or so it claims. Good info, and lots of it. A PDF that can be saved local for off line reading.


Motor Oil Bible (MOB)

Sandy

 

[Doug S.]

There is also the argument that break in with synthetic may not allow ring seating,again because it is too slippery.

I had just that problem once with a new Mitsubishi Eclipse. I changed out the factory oil for synthetic and the motor used oil from the get-go. I think the rings never seated, but the DS tech department said there should be no problem.

I'll probably never use synthetic again--there are enough good oils without having to take the chance.

Doug

 

[Sandy]

Doug - Can't you just change back to regular oil and seat the rings

I think most of what I read is that you should always break in with conventional oil UNLESS your car was machined specifically for running initially with synthetics, i.e., if it was delivered from the factory with synthetic. I don't know if this related to the ring/bore final finish but I suspect it is, not sure how you would tell your engine builder that but loads of cars are rolling out with synthetic from the factory and have no trouble.

Sandy

 

[wpeter]

I think anyone running a flat tappet cam or breaking in a new motor should read this article. Break in is crucial.
Oils: What motor oil should I use? Which oil is best for my Porsche or aircooled engine?
We had Charles Navarro as a speaker a month ago and his knowledge was outstanding. He has actually read the SAE papers as well as Shell oil and other manufacturers papers regarding ZDP reductions so it is not just his opinion. His pick is Brad Penn which is the old green Kendal GT formula. There are a few motor cycle oils with enough ZDP to run a flat tappet as well.
Royal purple and many synthetics have replaced the ZDP with Moly. The jury is still out on Moly and some consider it abbrasive. If you are racing the engine, he did say RP makes horse power!
He also has a recommended proceedure for putting up your car for the winter. All very useful info.

 

[Chris Duncan]

Petroleum based for break in

Redline thereafter in the engine and trans

all those racers can't be wrong

weights go by setup clearances, most Fords need 20w50.

 

[Cliff Beer]

Ditto on the Redline, particularly in the trans. Yup, all those racers (not ricers) can't be wrong.

 

[John Carnevale]

If you are running a flat tappet cam try Brad Penn oil. It's the old Kendall "Green Oil" We used to call it "Liquid Spinach". It has the high zinc content needed fo flat tappet cams.

 

[Al Jones]

I used to use Kendall Aircraft oil(50);it was one of very few that wouldn't burn off due to high temp /loading.Is this the same stuff? As far as synthetics,I'm using Mobil 1, 15w-50 in my BMW 7 series ohc,32v FI v8. Motor runs well but with 8qt pan,this does get a bit expensive to change frequently.Used 20w-50 in my regular street Fords and,yes,Chevys,sm blk ,big blk and Y blk, and had good luck with Valvoline Racing 40 and 50 in my flat tappet Ford drag and street racing-did I say that?-engines (I invite Jac to comment please,as he had bad luck with this brand) but never mixed various lots.There also might be an advantage to using racing motorcycle oil in regards to film strength,temp tolerance and most importantly,anti-foaming(lost a motor on Q-state due to that).In the end,I think Ron has a good take on this - just keeping the proper[clean] quantity of a good quality oil is of major importance. A.J.