Taboo engine goodies!

S

Troy

Hi Jonathan,

I had a chat to guy over here in West Oz who brings them in, he said budget figure AU$25k. That is serious coin.

Meanwhile, the new L76 (6 ltr / very similar head to LS7 427) Chev engine is supposed to really fly and is heaps cheaper. So here is a question:

Has anyone ever put an Chev LS series engine into a Roaring Forties car?

Or is that just asking to be spat on!
 
S

J. Salmon

paul butvila said:
Excuse my ignorance...but what is the advantage of going to the LS7 rather than all Ford?
Click to expand...

In my mind, Ford stopped development of the pushrod motor in the 90's, GM is still developing it. The LS7 is all aluminum, dry sump, 7 liters, turns to 7000 rpm, and reliably puts out over 500 hp with a warranty. You will not match that with Ford components for the price. You can build a "Ford" engine (that is start with a Ford block and do all aftermarket stuff) but there won't be much Ford there. The modern Ford modular OHC stuff is neat in the right setting, but it is bigger, heavier, and more top heavy than a pushrod motor.

Now keep in mind, this is my opinion, and I have never been a strong supporter of ANY american car company, so I am in no way a Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar guy. I grew up lusting after Ferrari (and still do). I drove a '72 LTD, and it was close to a POS. I had an Olds '98, and it was a POS. I then had a Chevy Cavalier and it defined the term POS. Now, for a lot of reasons, I have a bit in common with Henry :)

Mostly, I just am doing it my way!

Jonathan said:
Is RCR building the car for you as a turnkey? What transmission are you using?
Click to expand...

RCR is going to do paint and options, not turnkey. I will be using a ZF. And I am proud to say that it is officially ordered !!!
 
J

salmjo1 said:
RCR is going to do paint and options, not turnkey. I will be using a ZF. And I am proud to say that it is officially ordered !!!
Click to expand...

Congratulations. I think the LS7 engine is a great choice. Are you getting the CF injection stacks?
 
M

Mike Thompson

salmjo1 said:
In my mind, Ford stopped development of the pushrod motor in the 90's, GM is still developing it.
Click to expand...



I respectfully disagree with this statement. Ford has merely stopped development of pushrod V8's for OEM use. They are most certainly continuing the performance pushrod V8 development. Case in point the new "Boss" crate engine program. Very high "bangs for bucks" there. In fact there has never been a time when so much effort has been put into small block Ford both by Ford themselves and the aftermarket.
 
S

J. Salmon

Mike Thompson said:
I respectfully disagree with this statement. Ford has merely stopped development of pushrod V8's for OEM use. They are most certainly continuing the performance pushrod V8 development. Case in point the new "Boss" crate engine program. Very high "bangs for bucks" there. In fact there has never been a time when so much effort has been put into small block Ford both by Ford themselves and the aftermarket.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but who is really spending the money and development on the pushrod motor? GM made a decision to stay with it and has continued to develop it in the Corvette, which is arguably the top modern American performance platform (although you have the Viper... in fact, the new Viper motor with it's variable valve timing is very sweet and sounds fantastic). The mustang is an awesome car, but it is no track machine. The GT is another league for certain, but there is no pushrod motor there, and you cannot really say it was continual development of a platform. Plus, the LS7 compares favorably in power and torque to the enormous GT motor; I bet the LS7 weighs half the GT powerplant.

But I am no expert, and I am open to being schooled. Somebody tell me where else I will get a 7 liter (displacement does matter) all-aluminum pushrod motor with Ti connecting rods, high end pistons and crank, high end valves, 7000 redline, DRYSUMP, and factory warranty? OK, dump the factory warranty and match the 12k price?
 
G

Gary Kadrmas

Mike,

I agree with you too!

Ford has to do something to keep all those Trans-Am Mustangs and other high performance makes with replacement powerplants and performance goodies.

As far as development........Ford may be able to take a break from development programs, and let the Bow-Tie folks catch up with the Blue-Oval group!
 
S

J. Salmon

Hmmm the new 302 block is a nice one. It's still (as best as I can tell) iron, wet-sump, and carburated. In fact, I can't find the 331 version (which looks sweet at 10k) for sale anywhere. What am I missing?
 
M

Mike Thompson

Certainly Ford has abandoned pushrods for production cars, and for good reason. OHC's have more potential. In fact GM has many OHC engines including the Northstar V8. It's always been this way. Many of you will remember how Ford has been knocked for having so many different V8 engine families with little interchangeability between them. What they don't consider is that Ford Motor Company does not only compete with Chevrolet, they compete with ALL of GM and Chrysler too. How many different GM V8 engine families are there? Chevy, Buick, Olds Pontiac, Caddy. None of them interchange. Chrysler? Same thing. In fact there were no less than 3 different and non- interchangeable Hemi's in the early `50's, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler.

The Ford decision to go Modular addresses this problem. It was done for economies of scale. True the Mod is wide, but it is short in length and well designed. It is not heavy, especially in Al block versions. The GM V8 is a great engine that's true, in fact I believe that's in large part due to it's uncanny similarities to the hi- perf. small block Ford V8's of the past. That picture of the Modular next to the 302 circulating on this board is striking but put the Mod next to a 331" Chrysler Hemi then tell me what you think. The short deck 302 is the narrowest American V8 you can get.

Ford will soon destroy the pushrod vs. OHC debate with the new "Hurricane" V8. It is pretty much an update of the modular design. This time though the bore spacing will be wider to accomodate large bores. Even larger than the LS7. This will allow shorter crank throws and rods and thus lower deck heights. The engine will be narrower for it's displacement. The narrow bore spacing on the original Mods was done for two reasons. To shorten engine length and take advantage of the fact that small bores are easier to make EPA clean.

Anyway enough bloviating on my part. I just kinda think of a GT40 as a Ford, that's the only reason I'm sticking my nose in. Don't means to ruffle any feathers.
 
S

J. Salmon

What I need to make perfectly clear is that I DON'T KNOW JACK. But, I would like to. The bulk of the fun is learning new stuff, so please don't stop inserting opinions, and my feathers don't get ruffled! (since I am more like a downy chick on this forum, not much to ruffle) :)

I think of the GT40 as American first, Ford second. As a jaded Ferrari fan, I admit to building the car to be a Ferrari killer. So Chevy, Buick, Ford, Chrysler... makes no difference to me. It's US vs. those pesky "eye-tal-e-ans". Keep in mind that I was born in '69, so by the time I was old enough to really get into cars, the American offerings were...hmmmm.... not so much. Put an '87 Mustang next to an '87 Ferrari 328 GTS; it's hard to get really jacked up about the 'Stang. Put a GT against an F430? Now were are getting some American pride going.

I am approaching this project in terms of building what I consider to be the ultimate sports car. I guess in that respect it really is a Hot Rod. It's not a replica, it's not a resto-mod. It's my own personal expression.

That list includes an all-aluminum motor. This may not be the most practical approach, it just is my personal approach. Dry sump. Do I need it? Doubtful. But it's on my list. And the LS7 makes it easy for someone like me who would not know how to convert another platform. Aluminum mono chassis. Again, certainly could be debated. But for me it is the gold standard.

So Mike et al, thanks for adding to my list of things to read up on! Keep it coming!
 
K

Keith

Moderator
Hear you Mr J Salmon - that's a very contemporary way of thinking but Ford achieved a very real and amazing motor sporting success with the GT40, a sucess that has only recently been able to be matched (and that with the aid of CAD etc) so I rather think Ford probably deserves it's unique place in history for this achievement.

What makes it even more unique is that for once (and probably for the last time) a man with his name on the car said: "screw the math - I want those red cars beat" . This act alone flies in the face of Ford's legendary parsimony and likewise deserves some recognition.

And I know we only came 3rd in WWII, but I wonder if you could possibly be generous enough to agree that the GT40 was, in truth a US/UK collaboration? Just for the record, of course...:)
 
S

J. Salmon

Keith1 said:
Hear you Mr J Salmon - that's a very contemporary way of thinking but Ford achieved a very real and amazing motor sporting success with the GT40, a sucess that has only recently been able to be matched (and that with the aid of CAD etc) so I rather think Ford probably deserves it's unique place in history for this achievement.

What makes it even more unique is that for once (and probably for the last time) a man with his name on the car said: "screw the math - I want those red cars beat" . This act alone flies in the face of Ford's legendary parsimony and likewise deserves some recognition.

And I know we only came 3rd in WWII, but I wonder if you could possibly be generous enough to agree that the GT40 was, in truth a US/UK collaboration? Just for the record, of course...:)
Click to expand...

I thought it started as a contract job to Lola, since Ford didn't really have a racing division (hence the interest in Ferrari)?

Not too many Tifosi talk about the fact that Ferrari never went back to LeMans....

:)
 
F

Dave

Keith1 said:
And I know we only came 3rd in WWII, but I wonder if you could possibly be generous enough to agree that the GT40 was, in truth a US/UK collaboration? Just for the record, of course...:)
Click to expand...

Umm yes UK... Slough to be exact, but i think that's enough said :D
 
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