And vice versa: not many GT40s in Norway Denmark etc.....:thumbsdown:
The great equalizer!
- Thread starter Pete
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And vice versa: not many GT40s in Norway Denmark etc.....:thumbsdown:
I can agree in concept with Terry: So many times we equate "happiness" with materialism, wealth, etc.. In my travels I have met many happy,fulfilled individuals with not two dimes to rub together. In their social environment they are happy without extra "needs" or even wants. I feel that we are conditioned to expect the GT40's, the huge house, the swimming pools.etc. as a part of our social environment. My dear friends in central Mexico live in a cinder block casa, go to church in a 1600 AD church, have one cow, etc. When I last visited, the young father drove us around in a borrowed car to see the area (near San Miguel and Leon). He did such a great job I offered to buy him a NEW car for them to do tours of the area. I figured he could make $90/DAY, minimum. That's what he was making every two weeks to cut firewood! He declined. Maybe from pride as they were happy with what they had..... I'll never forget that. That puts an explanation point about my comment regarding philanthropy versus socialism: We can't force happiness and well-being on someone who is already happy. And, we don't need government intervention to do the right thing. The Bill Gate's of our world are philanthropists on a major scale but we can be too. A full 64% of my practice went to nonpaying patients. Many went to 'collections" initially from my billing company but for most, I absolved them (true deadbeats...I would go after). I only wanted an explanation and I would strike their debt to me. To me, that was MY decision...no government forced me to absolve their debts. Captitalism/Socialism makes little difference. Perhaps that's in-line with Keith's original posit. I don't know if I made a point or not....too much Pisco Porton/Peruvian Margaritas tonight....190 cases...I'm pooped.....
:idea: :thumbsup:
There are several theses that support the fact that material wealth, past the point where one is removed from abject poverty, doesn't correlate with happiness. A recent Harvard study indicated experiences are far more important than items when it comes to generating happiness.
Having said that, I think it's a slippery slope to tyranny to expect or allow a government to determine how wealth is to be accumulated or distributed (or redistributed).
Having said that, I think it's a slippery slope to tyranny to expect or allow a government to determine how wealth is to be accumulated or distributed (or redistributed).
Thanks Terry you get it
Actually that part was added as a bit of a tongue in cheek post, back to my main point The problem is Western capitalism is structurally reliant on growth for stability, when it falters, as it does with cyclical regularity, businesses struggle to survive unemployment ( as I have found out personally at great cost) goes up, and house repossessions go up.
The global economy is five times the size it was 50 years ago. If it continues to grow at the same rate it will be 80 times that size by the year 2100. In my opinion, this growth is not sustainable.
Speculation in commodities and financial derivatives by the unacceptable face of capitalism bought the financial world to the brink of collapse a few years ago.
What I do know is many on here from all sides of the political persuasion have lamented the constant rise of consumerism, the spending of money we do not have on things we do not need to impress people we do not care about.
Prosperity as said by others means, the love of our families, the support of our friends, the strength of our communities, our ability to participate fully in the life of society, a sense of meaning and purpose in our lives and support for those not as fortunate as us to have all this.
Like Keith, I am not clever enough to come up with a solution, what I do know is Governments and economists of whatever political persuasion need to do that, I believe they can by taking the good bits of the responsible face of capitalism and the good bits of socialism.
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Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Completely and utterly wrong.
Norwegians and Swedes are car crazy. I just got back from being the visiting American judge at Power Meet in Vasteras -- Google it if you wish -- which touts itself as the biggest American car show in the world.
I saw at least 10 GT40s -- including one "real" continuation car, and several new Ford GTs.
The perception Americans have of Nordic social welfare states as staid, boring, places with no car and music culture is just completely incorrect. Too much Faux News for you!
Those guys love their cars, their liquor, their rock and roll and their women.
and, with the free health care, they are all generally much nicer to look at than the fatass on the Harley here with the "F&$% Obama Handouts" sticker on the saddle bags (all the while using social security and disability checks to pay for said Harley).
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Thanks Terry you get it
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Like Keith, I am not clever enough to come up with a solution, what I do know is Governments and economists of whatever political persuasion need to do that, I believe they can by taking the good bits of the responsible face of capitalism and the good bits of socialism.
All well said.
I'll add an Orwell quote: "Socialism is the best defense against communism."
His point? Capitalism is an excellent system for wealth creation. To a point. And that is where wealth creators have acquired so much wealth that they are able to game the system via monopolies (see the US in the 1890s) or via protection for their type of income (see the 2000s in the US, where investement income is taxed far less than actual work). At that point, Marx was prescient -- at some point, the workers ain't gonna take it anymore.
How to head that off? Regulate the sharp edges off of capitalism. Understand that "free markets" don't exist when only a few have real market power, or can manipulate the market. Understand that govenrment has a real role in the market place, as the only true voice of the people (who individually have no market power). And so on.
This is what Orwell meant. Some basic protections for those who have no market power -- progressive tax rates, basic labor regulations, anti-trust laws, free higher education for all, free health care for all, a basic social safety net etc. (what many call socialism) -- coupled with capitalism is the mixed system most likely to prevent a Marxist revolution.
I lived in Sweden for 3 years smart guy and of course I'm familiar with the show. You'll notice I didn't mention Sweden by name. You won't find the same car fervor in Denmark, Norway or the Netherlands however. No one said they're boring places. The people are great and, yes, by and large much better to look at than fat Americans. All of my Swedish friends (who work by the way) lament how difficult it is to get ahead in their socialist system. It was much easier for their parents in the 60's and early 70's.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
If you know the Nordic countries, then you'd know Norwegians are Swedes with an accent, and Finns are Swedes who got stuck speaking Hungarian for some reason.
They all love cars. Plenty of high end stuff there.
Most Swedes in the US agree with your friends. Most Swedes in Sweden are happy in their system.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Also, can list the "freebies forever" that we have and explain how you or anyone else would actually enjoy living at that standard of living?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
I think that because we have Capitalism and Socialism keeping each other in check we sort of strike a little middle ground by which we all benefit.
Bob
Bob
That's very profound Bob, and quite true..
Jeff, I'll chime in on the Scandinavian countries. They may not have the best driving environment but they are true car nuts - greater in my view, than the average American. Whenever we met them in drag racing competition, they had the best equipment and high dollar kit, and invariably beat us every time. They are also top draw tractor pullers.
However, I am not sure their economic model would work on a larger scale as their populations tend to be anchored at around the 5 million mark, which is a major factor in Scotland's drive for independence. Not taking it away from the Scots but Scandinavian work ethic is mighty and any envious nation wishing to apply similar principles might have to consider retraining the ethos of their entire workforce, if such a thing is feasible.
Very true Keith. Countries with small and non-dense populations that are rather homogeneous are not practical examples for economic models for the rest of the world.
Jeff, if you call a Norwegian a Swede with an accent he'll likely kick your ass. The older Norwegians have never forgiven the Swedes for letting the Germans march through their country for free like a bunch of pussies. Norway at least tried to put up a fight.
Most Swedes in the US (I'm in MN, tons of Scandihuvians here) don't give a rats ass about Sweden or it's economy. It's my friends in Sweden who bemoan their system. They don't, of course, dwell on it and "always look on the bright side of life (de do, de do de do de do).
Jeff, if you call a Norwegian a Swede with an accent he'll likely kick your ass. The older Norwegians have never forgiven the Swedes for letting the Germans march through their country for free like a bunch of pussies. Norway at least tried to put up a fight.
Most Swedes in the US (I'm in MN, tons of Scandihuvians here) don't give a rats ass about Sweden or it's economy. It's my friends in Sweden who bemoan their system. They don't, of course, dwell on it and "always look on the bright side of life (de do, de do de do de do).
Why don't you do it and report back:thumbsup:
