Volcanic Cloud?

David,

Most modern aircraft are fitted with a RAT (Ram Air Turbine) to provide electrical power to the electrics and hydraulics in the event of a double engine failure.

So the APU while being the next best thing to the EDGs is not totally necessary. And aircraft control should be maintained.

But I'm sure you knew that.

However, no forward vision (except through open DV window) and standby instruments would make life "interesting".
 
Silly question but since the ash is in the upper atmousphere wouldn't we expect it to eventually circle the globe impacting other air space or is it a situation where it all falls out over Europe?
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
It will wash out with rain and other precipitation at lower levels but at the upper levels I think, IMHO, it will eventually encompass the northern hemisphere entirely. Maybe we should ask an expert and so I'll send an email to Victoria Sinclair in Helsinki, who is really well qualified to give such answers and get back to you.
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Ps -it's already encroaching St Johns Newfoundland and soon the estuary of the St Lawrence Seaway.
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The Met Office graphic showing the predicted position of the ash cloud at 18.00 on April 20
 
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David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
I've sent an invite to Victoria to come on the gt40s.web website and field a few questions. She may decline due pressure at work but if she does, I want no swearing
or cussing please.....
OK?
 
confirmed.
Also our F 16s returned home with seriously damaged engines.

They restart to fly a little inside Italy today. There is still no chance to reach european cityes from north Italy. All trains are fully booked at least till saturday, all cars for hire are booked and outside, so not available.
There is people sleeping in airports since last saturday. real emergency down here, the trasport system is raising the collapse. Red cross provide temporary beds in almost all airports.
Some fools pay the taxi to be back in Uk or Scandinavia from here, paing nearly 5000 euros of final bill.
Also Moto gp has been delayed of one week (better, cause Valentino Rossi hurted a shoulder at home during motocross fun session, and has more time to fix it).

It is a real mess,just hope the situation can be better soon...
I live near to Linate airport..never heard it sooo silent, and is also strange to understand cause these days down here is full summer, + 25 degrees during day and no clouds at all in the blue sky...
 
stupid question to ex pilots (David...this is for u).
being this toxic cloud at a soo high altitude (they talk of 12.000 meters,) shouldnt they allow commercial planes to fly lower than this for a limited period?
 
I'm not David but I will try to answer.
The ash cloud was between the surface and 20000ft, and apparently in 3 distinct layers with in that band. The problem was getting aircraft from the surface to a safe altitude and down again.
This whole problem relates to the ICAO recomendation (not rule) that ATC cannot issue a clearance to fly in air space that has been contaminated by ash. The UK CAA/EU chose this to mean a blanket ban on all flights. It is this interpretaion of the rules that has changed tonight.
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Paolo - I guess that is the pressure that big business can bring. I am pleased in some ways that so many people can be accomodated but I think we are looking at five to seven days before airline schedules return to some sense of normality.
The evidence that has been used to get the CAA to change their mind may well be
sound. I hope it is. I guess it will be a case of watching any degradation in the aeroplanes and seeing how much contamination that the a/c filters pick up, how the leading edges fare (- more in short haul than long haul as short haul jets spend all their time in the Northern Hemisphere ) and of course initially the N1-n3 stages of the engines. I think there will still be lanes of ash in the atmosphere which will be no go areas though.
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
From the Daily Mail:


BA's jumbo gamble: UK airspace opened after Willie Walsh sends 26 flights towards Britain and demands they be allowed to land

<SCRIPT src="http://scripts.dailymail.co.uk/js/diggthis.js" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT>
By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 6:56 AM on 21st April 2010

  • <LI style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">BA flight lands as phased reintroduction of UK airspace begins <LI style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Civil Aviation Authority say planes can tolerate current levels of volcanic ash <LI style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Airlines must carry out their own test flights, says CAA <LI style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Passengers urged to contact airlines before travelling to airport
  • BA chief executive Willie Walsh welcomes lifting of restrictions
The UK no-fly zone was dramatically lifted last night after a game of brinkmanship by British Airways boss Willie Walsh.
The BA chief executive sent 26 long-haul flights towards British airports and demanded that the air authorities allow them to land.
At first the planes heading towards Heathrow and Gatwick were turned away but last night Britain's Civil Aviation Authority and air traffic control body NATS caved in and finally ended the flying ban.
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The first British Airways plane from Vancouver, Canada, lands at Heathrow Airport​

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Some of the passengers from the first BA flight from Vancouver to Heathrow set foot on London soil​



All UK airports were opened at 10pm - and the Government dramatically changed the rules on flying through volcano dust by giving airlines more responsibility to conduct their own tests for ash.
Last night there were suspicions that Transport Secretary Lord Adonis had been 'bounced' into action by Mr Walsh in an effort to avoid an embarrassing showdown in the run up to the General Election.

BACK IN THE AIR


BAA: Not all flights will operate during the early period of opening, passengers must contact their airline before travelling to airport.

BA: All longhaul flights to operate from Heathrow and Gatwick from today.

It will take 'considerable time' before airline restores full flying programme.

There will be shorthaul cancellations to and from London airports until 1pm today and possibly beyond.

easyJet: Some services to resume across UK and Europe today.

'Several days' for services to return to normal.

BMI: Flights to resume from 9.15am.


Labour was left bruised after being drawn into the BA cabin crew strike row and it is thought the party was desperate to avoid a repeat at such a crucial time.
Until now decisions on flying have been made solely by air traffic control on the advice of the Met Office.
Last night Mr Walsh was stinging in his criticism of the authorities who closed the airports, leading airlines to lose £ 200million a day. He said: 'I don't believe it was necessary to impose a blanket ban on all UK airspace last Thursday. My personal belief is that we could have safely continued operating for a period of time.'
Mr Walsh's anger was intensified by the sight throughout yesterday of rivals - such as Germany's Lufthansa - flying over the UK above 20,000 feet on their way to the U.S.
It came after airline experts questioned whether the no-fly zone was a sensible response to a genuine threat - or another example of health and safety gone mad.
A Downing Street spokesman said the Prime Minister welcomed the decision by the CAA to allow UK airspace to be used.

The airline industry will carry out a 'phased' resumption of flights to and from the UK as operators set about working on contingency plans to get back to business while complying with conditions imposed by the Civil Aviation Authority.

Experts warned the travel industry faced a 'huge logistical operation' as hundreds of thousands of Britons were displaced around the world amid the chaos caused by the volcanic ash.

Airlines and tour operators will have to deal with a huge backlog of customers and the added headache of planes and crew not being in the right place.

And with conditions in the air changing rapidly there is no guarantee the decision to allow planes to fly and land will be permanent.

The first BA flight to land arrived at London's Heathrow Airport just before 10pm after the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) agreed to lift the blanket ban on airspace.

Calling it a 'situation without precedent', the CAA added: 'The major barrier to resuming flight has been understanding tolerance levels of aircraft to ash.
'Manufacturers have now agreed increased tolerance levels in low ash density areas.'
CAA chairwoman Dame Deirdre Hutton said none of the no-fly zones caused by the volcanic ash cloud are currently over Britain.

She said in a statement: 'The new guidance allows a phased reintroduction from 2200 tonight of much of the airspace which is currently closed due to the volcanic ash plume over the UK.
'There will continue to be some 'no fly zones' where concentrations of ash are at levels unsafe for flights to take place, but very much smaller than the present restrictions.

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CAA chairwoman Dame Deirdre Hutton and BA chief executive Willie Walsh both stressed that safety of all air passengers was their main priority and concern



'Furthermore, the Met Office advise that the "no fly zones" do not currently cover the UK.
'Making sure that air travellers can fly safely is the CAA's overriding priority.'
Transport Secretary Lord Adonis said all British airports could reopen and he expected them to remain open.

A spokesman for BAA, which operates Heathrow, said it would do everything possible to 'get people moving'.


'We are ready to open, but until further notice passengers must contact their airline before travelling to the airport,' the spokesman said.
'Not all flights will operate during the early period of opening, and we will do everything we can to support airlines and get people moving.'
Air safety experts said the CAA was well within its rights to step in to sort out the ash cloud aviation crisis.
Air traffic control company Nats had 'acted logically' in shutting down airspace, David Learmount, operations and safety editor of Flight International magazine said.



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This graphic shows which flight paths will continue to be affected by the volcanic ash cloud

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Experts have discovered the planes can handle ash from the erupting volcano near Eyjafjallajokull, Iceland, after extensive tests​
But he added that in hindsight it might be shown that Nats could have kept some services open.

Mr Learmount went on: 'Nats has the ultimate responsibility for aircraft that enters its controlled airspace but Nats can't act without the backing of the CAA.

'All along, Nats has been saying that it has been acting following consultation with the Met Office and the CAA.

'What Nats did in restricting UK airspace was completely logical because of the unprecedented nature of the problem.

'In the light of history it may be seen that they could have run some services.'
Transport Secretary Lord Adonis denied the decision to reopen airspace was the result of pressure from the airline industry.
Asked by Jeremy Paxman on BBC Newsnight about how much pressure the Government had come under, he said: 'They have obviously wanted to be able to fly their planes - of course they have - but that has not been the issue at stake here.

'The issue at stake here has been the assessment of the safety authorities as to what is the safe way in which planes can fly when there is a presence of ash.

'The fact which has changed in the last week is we have had a volcanic eruption and having to assess safe levels of ash content in the atmosphere within which planes can fly has been an urgent issue which the safety authorities have had to deal with.

'That's been what's changed over the last five days - it's not been pressure from the industry which has caused (it).'
Dame Hutton also admitted safety experts and aircraft manufacturers had collaborated with the CAA to confirm that planes can tolerate the volcanic ash.
She added: 'The CAA has drawn together many of the world's top aviation engineers and experts to find a way to tackle this immense challenge, unknown in the UK and Europe in living memory.'

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These British passengers seemed very happy to be home​


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Airlines will now have to battle to clear the backlog of stranded passengers waiting to get home​
A Downing Street spokesman said: 'The Prime Minister welcomes the decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to allow UK airspace to be used from this evening following rigorous analysis and testing of the flying conditions.

'This solution has been reached as a result of the close working between the Government, the CAA, airlines and the manufacturers, and will allow the thousands of UK citizens stranded abroad to return home to their families.

'The Government will continue to work with all of the relevant agencies to ensure that people can return home to the UK quickly and safely.'
Lord Adonis said there was now a 'better' understanding of the effect of volcanic ash on aircraft.
'The CAA have been working around the clock with the aircraft manufacturing industry, the airlines and the research community to better understand how different concentrations of ash affect aircraft engines,' he said.
Nats said air traffic control services had still not resumed over an area of north west Scotland because of a 'dense concentration of volcanic ash' and warned the situation remained 'dynamic' as a result of changing weather conditions.

But it welcomed the ending of a 'period of disruption'.

A spokesman said: 'This brings to an end a period of disruption and uncertainty for air passengers.

'Our operation is fully staffed and already responding to the backlog of flights entering UK airspace.

'We will be working with the airlines and airports to resume normal operations as soon as possible.

'Due to the scale of the disruption, it will take some time for flights to resume normal operations and passengers are advised to check with their airlines for the latest information about flights.'
'As a result, the CAA has now established a wider area in which it is safe to fly, consistent with the framework agreed by the EU transport ministers yesterday.


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Spotted: A plane flies over the London Eye earlier today, despite British Airways aircraft at Heathrow and Gatwick airports remaining grounded​

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Is it a bird or is it a plane? After five days of empty skies this Lufthansa passenger jet was spotted flying above London on its way from Germany to the U.S. It has to fly at 20,000ft which is above the ash cloud​
'In addition to this change in restrictions, we are maintaining increased capacity to help passengers get home. In total there are an extra 20,000 passenger places a day across Eurostar, Eurotunnel and the Channel ferries.'
The UK Border Agency warned people returning to the UK to expect queues at passport control as staff attempt to process large numbers of travellers.

A spokesman said: 'We are manning as many passport desks as possible.

'All arrivals will undergo usual passport, and where appropriate customs, checks.

'We are doing everything possible to speed the onward journey of travellers, however we ask that passengers accept that there may be some queues, which we will try to keep to a minimum.'
All passengers are advised to check with their airlines before travelling to any airport.
Officials at Gatwick airport said any passengers who arrive more than four hours before their flight is scheduled to depart will be asked to leave, 'as speculative trips will cause major congestion.'
Passengers are also advised to use public transport to reach the airports.
Operator bmi said it would resume services today with some flights from 9.15am.
A spokesman for London City Airport warned of a 'significant number of cancellations' when it re-opened today.
Emirates said it planned to operate most of its services from the UK to Dubai today.

Passengers told of their relief as they began arriving back to the UK.

Stephen Burnett, an ex-pat from Leeds who has been living in Canada for 40 years, was travelling on to London for business and had been delayed for five days.
'It is wonderful to finally get here and it wasn't a bad trip,' he said.
'But I am sure what I have been through compares to what others are going through.'
Another passenger on the Canada flight was Colin Mee, from Nottingham, who was trying to get to Edinburgh.
'I was originally booked on a BA flight on Friday but then I heard this one was available.
'I was originally supposed to return last Thursday but I was able to stay on in the hotel at a cheaper rate.'
Andy and Julia Nixon, from Guildford, Surrey, returned to the UK with their 17-year-old son Michael, who had been competing in a special needs hockey tournament in Toronto.
'We are glad to be back in the UK,' Mr Nixon said.

'We kept seeing on the news that the volcanic ash stream was returning to British skies so we didn't think we had any chance of getting back.

'We've been delayed for a couple of days but the weather was great though - there could be worse places to be stuck,' Mr Nixon joked.

'But it is great to have come to Newcastle because we weren't sure whether we were going to end up in somewhere like Spain.'

Their son had been competing in the Jim Gregory Friendship Tournament for Special Hockey International, which was held in Orangeville, Ontario, between April 15 and 17.

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A German Lufthansa Boeing 747 was one of the planes given permission to fly over London, above the volcanic ash cloud​
Five coaches carrying 250 Britons were leaving Madrid last after the British Embassy there managed to arrange transport.
The passengers will be driven to Calais before boarding a ferry across the Channel.

Supermarkets may dock pay


Two of Britain's biggest employers yesterday warned absentee workers taking 'Volcano days' that they may not be paid.
Both Tesco and Sainsbury's said employees stranded abroad may have their holiday allowance or salaries docked.
The two supermarkets together employ almost 450,000 people so any clampdown could potentially affect thousands.
When asked whether he would dock pay, Tesco chief executive Sir Terry Leahy said: 'We will handle it on a case-by-case basis.'
Sainsbury's said workers could choose to use holiday days, take unpaid leave or make up the time at a later date.


Virgin Atlantic said it was working on contingency plans to restart flights to and from the UK over the next 24 hours.

Details of which flights the airline will operate will be published on its website later tonight.

East Midlands Airport said it would resume operations but added commercial flights would be 'dependent on the decisions made by airlines and tour operators'.

After five days of empty skies the vapour trails of the Lufthansa flights were the first sign of aircraft aloft in the five days since the Icelandic volcano's eruption caused air chaos across Europe.
'German planes are flying over London again,' said a Lufthansa spokesman.
'We are using a corridor over England and flying very high - above 20,000ft - to keep above the ash cloud.'​
One of the first was a Lufthansa Boeing 747 Jumbo jet with a thin white vapour trail in its wake through clear blue skies.

The city's skies may normally be dominated by air traffic - but for passengers enjoying the panoramic views on board the London Eye, the jet made a memorable spotting.
Another plane was spotted high in the sky to the East of Putney at around 10.30am.
Earlier today, the white condensation trails from up to a dozen Lufthansa passenger jets were spotted over the capital as the German national carrier was given permission to fly above England.

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The eerily quiet check-in desks at Heathrow airport will no doubt be flooded with travellers eager to return home​


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The ash cloud has caused flight chaos throughout the world​
They were among about 200 planes flying above 20,000 ft - and above the volcanic ash cloud - (using a 'corridor' through UK airspace) to get to their destinations, according to air traffic controllers at NATS.

Lufthansa announced on its website that it was going to 'resume immediately its traffic on long-haul flights' after taking advantage of special permission from Germany's aviation authorities.
In line with special procedures, pilots would fly visually rather than relying on instruments, and would be under the direction of air traffic controllers until German airspace was completely reopened.
A Lufthansa spokesman said: 'All long-haul flights, as well as some intra-European and domestic flights, will take place.
'During the day Lufthansa plans to expand its flight plan gradually for intra-european and domestic flights.'

In Germany, Lufthansa was given special permission to fly 50 long-haul planes carrying about 15,000 passengers flying at low altitudes.






Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267597/Iceland-volcano-eruption-British-airspace-reopened-BA-flight-lands-Heathrow.html#ixzz0liElavBl
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
The biggest lie of all in this article was the following statement from Downing Street:

A Downing Street spokesman said: 'The Prime Minister welcomes the decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to allow UK airspace to be used from this evening following rigorous analysis and testing of the flying conditions.

Who believes such a crock of shit?
 
Morning David,

After talking with various people connected with this over the last 12 hours, it appears that BA and Willie Walsh forced the issue by having about 4 aircraft circling over the Irish Sea demanding to be let into Heathrow, and with more set to join them. They were circling for well over an hour so were fat for fuel and must have been anticipating this very set of events.

As for safety, I get the impression that some one said an ash cloud was coming, opened the "big book of rules" at the page marked ash and it said don't fly. And that was that. The fact that most of us have been flying around in this concentration of ash for years, out in the States and around the Far East didn't count for anything.

But once the decision was made it was very difficult for the CAA to back down. Most of the EU came to their scenes on Monday and allowed flying. It was only us that was left. These "test flights" offered the CAA a way out and a bit of face saving.

Monday Eurocontrol released a map showing where there were confirmed high concentrations of ash. This map was produced from satellite and observation data much like the FAA use everyday, and its what the EU were working to from Monday.

We here in the UK were still dragging our feet wanting more info and data. And no one would make a decision. It was this forcing of a decision one way or the other that happened yesterday.

However if the decision was to remain closed, the CAA would have had a very hard time justifying it as we are doing nothing different to the FAA now.

Just my take on things, lets just say it all got very political.
 
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