What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF?

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Here is a shot of the front of my motor, it has a 3 stage pump. Which I do have a question for Barnard - In looking around I see some 3 stage with breathers on the engine (Not sealed) Some 4 stage Dry sump pumps also with breathers on the engine, since I'm running a 3 stage pump, how likely is it will I be able to run a sealed engine?

Also attached a plumbing diagram the I save frome the web a while ago...
 

Attachments

  • FrontShot.jpg
    FrontShot.jpg
    37.4 KB · Views: 452
  • DrysumpPlumb.jpg
    DrysumpPlumb.jpg
    63.7 KB · Views: 441

Howard Jones

Supporter
Very good and interesting thread. The one thing I will add is I have found that on track it is hard for me to monitor the oil and water temp gauge. So I am going to install a oil pressure warning light on the top of the dash in the line of sight next to the shift light. I intend to use the kind that in fact looks like a small version of a shift light.

I think that such a setup just might give you the couple of seconds you need to save a motor. Such as with a oil pump drive shaft failure.
 
Sandy, your engine looks very nice! I see that you have a special "Boss style" water pump and a serious oil pump support. I don't see your alternator but it is may be installed at the transmission side. Regarding your interesting oil diagram, I have few comments. Be sure that it's not a critic, I don't have any authority to do it. The purpose of this forum is only to exchange different point of view between us ;) .
a) Oil tank
Oil tank must be designed with a "deaerator" (not sure about the translation :o ). Oil return is an air-oil mixture that produce a large amount of foam (emulsion effect). Second oil tank function is to separate oil and air. Obviously, as indicated in the sketch the oil tank should be provided with a large air breather.
b) Oil suction line between oil tank and pump.
This line is critic. Some engines have been destroyded due to a too small suction line (or too long). Gear volumetric pumps have a very large discharge pressure capacity but a very low suction power. When oil is cold, there is a cavitation risk. We have to keep in mind to facilitate oil input to the pump by using large and short hose (12-AN could be OK but 16-AN is better mainly is you use 40W and plus oil viscosity) and to avoid any "U-bend" on the line.
c) Oil radiator
Oil radiator could be necessary (mainly if you want sa save some pounds by using a small oil quantity). However, I prefer install it at the return line side with a 4 ways thermostatic valve (oil too hot is not good but too cold is very bad). At this side, it's the hotest oil point and the oil pressure is very low (to minimise oil leakage risks).
d) Oil filters at the suction side of scavenging stages.
As already explained for the pressure stage, we have to facilitate the oil suction. Oil filters at this place are recommended by the oil pump manufacturer to protect internal parts against foreign particles. However it's preferable to have a large screen at the bottom of the oil sump than individual filters for each stage to facilitate oil suction. About the cylinder head oil return circuit, Ford has provided in the SVO blocks an interesting particle trap design (see picture)
e) Sealled or not sealled engine?
From long time ago, engine builders have observed that crankcase vaccum was the best mean to facilitate crankshaft rotation. With a traditional wet sump, different ways such additional vaccum pump or ejector system connected to the exhaust pipes was used to obtain it. Moreover the free crank and rods rotation, crankcase vaccum design improves the piston ring seal to authorise to use low tension ring in order to save a small amount of internal frictions. One of the dry sump system advantage is to produce a crankcase vaccum. It is the reason that a lot of racing engine are provided with 3, 4 or 5 :eek: scavenging stages. These pumps are designed to pull oil mixed with a large air amount. You understand in these conditions that any engine air breather can be acceptable mainly if as the race engines you use low tension rings ;) .
 

Attachments

  • Small block 302 RDI.JPG
    Small block 302 RDI.JPG
    51.3 KB · Views: 424
  • Oil return trap.JPG
    Oil return trap.JPG
    56 KB · Views: 406
Howard Jones said:
Very good and interesting thread. The one thing I will add is I have found that on track it is hard for me to monitor the oil and water temp gauge. So I am going to install a oil pressure warning light on the top of the dash in the line of sight next to the shift light. I intend to use the kind that in fact looks like a small version of a shift light.

I think that such a setup just might give you the couple of seconds you need to save a motor. Such as with a oil pump drive shaft failure.

Good idea Howard! In the same way, one of my friends had installed a radical system. In his engine, oil pressure is controlled by a pressure switch that is in serial connection with his ignition box. If the oil pressure goes down below 1psi (not sure about the value), the engine cut off automatically (he uses a kind of brake pressure switch that is normaly used for stop light). Of course he has provided a by-pass switch to be able to start his engine. Then when engine is runing and the oil pressure OK, he switchs off the by-pass to be in safe configuration ;)
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Howard Jones said:
Very good and interesting thread. The one thing I will add is I have found that on track it is hard for me to monitor the oil and water temp gauge. So I am going to install a oil pressure warning light on the top of the dash in the line of sight next to the shift light. I intend to use the kind that in fact looks like a small version of a shift light.

I think that such a setup just might give you the couple of seconds you need to save a motor. Such as with a oil pump drive shaft failure.
Yes, I have been thinking of the same. I was just at the track and the entire time only remember looking at the tach. Hook it up to a temp switch and oil switch to a light (rev limiter too!) like a master alarm to cause a look at the gauges...

Bernard -

Thanks for the feedback, it is valuable for sure. Alternator is built into the back of the pulley of the water pump. It is a really cool thing that gets rid of the alternator and brackets. Check out

Permanent Magnet Alternators and Water Pumps <meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0> <meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document"> <meta http-equiv="description" content="Permanent Magnet Alternators and Water Pumps"> <met

(Sorry the link expanded like this...)

they make the pumps and the pulleys. The one on the engine is a 60amp model, the 30 amp is smaller, but with the fans and electrics of the GT40, opted for the larger.

I like the ideal of running it sealed, just a bit nervous to do it :). It will save the expensive -16 AN fittings and lines that I have on the valve covers if it does work ok.

Nice Block prep as well! I'll ask how your motor did with the weber and if you had it on the dyno?

Good thread!

Sandy
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
I wouldn't put a ignition kill switch in the oil pressure line if I used the car on track. I am afraid that it might turn off the motor right at the point (in a corner) where instant no power might put you in the fence. This is a good idea for many other uses, boats come to mind, as well a tow vehicle.
 
Sandy said:

:eek: Looks fantastic! Somewhere, some designers are genius guys.

Sandy said:
Nice Block prep as well! I'll ask how your motor did with the weber and if you had it on the dyno?

Good thread!

Sandy
Not yet ready for the test bench. I have to solve my cylinder sleeve problem and then (more difficult) to find a dyno shop that accept engines above 300hp (don't smile Sandy I am in France :o )
 
I'm with you on this one Howard.. I checked back to a previous post about a Lydden Sprint...

"Roy had had his first practice and I was out for mine on nice sticky slicks, when 1.25 laps into run, at about 6000rpm - the oil pressure light lit up! causing me to pull off the circuit and requiring a tow to the pits. We had thrown the dry-sump belt, but looking at the data logging, from the warning light coming on (<30psi) it took me 0.3 seconds to get off the throttle and another 2.5s to switch off. (not too bad considering I also glanced across the the digital readout of oil pressure and had to brake and negotiate a corner all at the same time) - Stripped and rebuilt Drysump Pump on Sunday - all ok now.."

Had the motor cut of it's own accord - I'm reasonably sure that the additional braking of no idle fuel/spark would have had me off the track and at Lydden, there ain't much run-off.

Stick a nice big bright light on as pressure switch set to about 30psi as an early warning system - you stay in charge/control.

Great Thread this...... and some great looking motors.....rockonsmile
 
Howard Jones said:
I wouldn't put a ignition kill switch in the oil pressure line if I used the car on track. I am afraid that it might turn off the motor right at the point (in a corner) where instant no power might put you in the fence. This is a good idea for many other uses, boats come to mind, as well a tow vehicle.
It is a common practice in racing engine to switch off the ignition when there is a risk of mechanical damage. At the top level, we use this arrangement in formula one engine. As you know, formula one engine are without valve spring. Valves are closing and maintained closed only by CO2 gas pressure. This pressure is issue from an external small bottle et the gas pressure is monitored by a double pressure switch. Obviously, the CO2 bottle is a new one for each track run. If for any reason the CO2 pressure fall down below the minimum acceptable value, ignition is swtched off automatically ...to avoid an engine destruction. This choice is a common agreement between drivers and mechanical engineers.
 
Back
Top