Which one and why

[John W]

Hello all,

I'm new here, so appologies if this post is in the wrong place (and a bit long !).

After many years of looking and planning I'm now almost ready to take the plunge into the world of GT40 ownership.

I have had a good scan about at the various kits, but would like to hear advice please and feedback on things I may not have been able to glean by reading the sellers sites.

The makers I am considering are:
- Roaring Forties (called Rick and will visit him in a couple of weeks)
- ERA
- MDA
- Tornado

I intend the car as a track toy, but want it to be usable on the road too.

Some questions which spring to mind for comparison are:
- how close are the chassis, bodywork & interior to the original ?
- do the panels come pre cut just requiring prep for paint, or is a significant amount of prep required with trimming, etc ?
- are the front and rear clip finished inside too ?
- how good is the build manual ?
- Is it available prior to placing an order ?

I am looking to achieve similar track performance to an Ultima.
- Is this realistic, or am I going to be disappointed ?
(for reference I'm comparing with a Chevy 377 engined GTR).
- Are there options for decent brakes (ap, brembo, willword, etc) ?
- Is the choice of gearbox open, or can only a specific one be used ?
- how about engine - will any small block ford fit or only the 302 ?


I would welcome any advice or comments which might help to realise important differences.
For example I recall some owners of GTD cars having to modify engine mounts and suspension points to improve handling.

Many thanks.

Cheers,
John.

 

[Bill Bayard]

Welcome to the Forum!

You will find an endless supply of information on this subject via the "search" feature, as this question has been asked by practically everyone at one time or another. Try a search first, then be more specific with your questions, if any remain.

Best of luck in your quest!


Bill

 

[Ian K]

John,

[ QUOTE ]

Some questions which spring to mind for comparison are:
- how close are the chassis, bodywork & interior to the original ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Of your choices, ERA is the closest, with MDA, RF and Tornado
having space frames with aluminum or stainless steel panelling
to appear like a monocoque. Which is better is the subject
of many a debate.
[ QUOTE ]
- do the panels come pre cut just requiring prep for paint, or is a significant amount
of prep required with trimming, etc ?

[/ QUOTE ]
ERA's come just about ready for paint/prep IIRC, all others
require a little more work. However, all can be had at the
ready for paint/prep stage for a fee.
[ QUOTE ]
- are the front and rear clip finished inside too ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, IIRC.
[ QUOTE ]
- how good is the build manual ?

[/ QUOTE ]
ERA and RF manuals are good, and getting better. Not sure
the status of MDA, though I'm sure it is/will be top notch.
Tornado likewise, someone else with a new Tornado can chime
in, but again, like MDA, Tornado is pretty reliable. All
can be contacted for assistance as well.
[ QUOTE ]
- Is it available prior to placing an order ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Most will allow advance purchase, or will even send the manual
ahead of the build if an order is placed. ERA will let you
download it for free, without images.
[ QUOTE ]
I am looking to achieve similar track performance to an Ultima.
- Is this realistic, or am I going to be disappointed ?
(for reference I'm comparing with a Chevy 377 engined GTR).

[/ QUOTE ]
All depends on how much money you want to put into it.
There are many fine examples of well sorted cars in the UK.
Go to a track day and see /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
- Are there options for decent brakes (ap, brembo, willword, etc) ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, all of the above. Again, it might require some money
and engineering, but all have been used by others in various
makes - AP and Wilwood are common options for RF and MDA.
[ QUOTE ]
- Is the choice of gearbox open, or can only a specific one be used ?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is dicey. ERA is built around accuracy, and the chassis is
engineered around the ZF. The MDA and Tornado are engineered
around the Renault, RF uses the Audi box. These can be modified to
accept the Porsche or ZF (or Renault or Audi) - ERA
might be more difficult than others. Again, it comes down to
money and engineering.
[ QUOTE ]
- how about engine - will any small block ford fit or only the 302 ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, most accept the 351W as well as the 302, with some
cradle mods. RF has put the 4.6 mod motor in. Again, money
and engineering can make it all possible. And again, the ERA
might be more difficult to put in anything other than a 302
or 351W.

HTH, and as already mentioned, the search feature helps.

Ian

 

[Craig White]

Have you thought about GT40 Australia(DRB)? They are one of the largest and oldest GT40 manufacturers. Lee has one, he is in England. His build details are in GT40 Aus forum on this site.

I'll do some quick answers to your questions. If you start to seriously consider GT40 Australia, you can get more information then, probably best contacting the manufacturer directly at that stage.

Can buy chassis at any stage: bare body/chassis(well includes everything you want: windscreen, all perspex parts, fibreglass inner panels etc etc), rolling chassis, turnkey minus engine and gearbox, full turnkey or anything in between.

Chassis is space frame with panelling. Rear chassis(engine bay) is very monocoque looking in the way it is panelled. Very nice.

All panels come pre-fit, need a little finishing off and adjustment to get gaps correct. You need to fit inner fibreglass panels for headlights, driving lights & front guards etc.

Not sure what you mean about front/rear clip being finished on inside. They come with raw fibreglass finish. Rear clip deck needs to be custom cut to fit around your carby/injection setup, then you need to paint them black etc etc.

In my opinion the build manual is good. I was actually surprised at how good it was, even plenty of colour photos to help. Pretty sure you would have to place an order to get a manual though. Or have a look at someone elses. Worth asking about though.

Peter Ransom who owns/runs GT40 Australia used to be an Ultima dealer and has a racing background. So he would know about how it compares. They do a lot of race development and nearly any weekend I can see their GT40s competing here locally on the track and Peter Ransom is regulary there. Flatchat on these forums seriously races his GT40 Australia. Check forum for schedule of events.

Manufacturer offers various brake options from street to serious track set up. Or you can do your own custom set up.

Chassis come set up for Porsche G50. Not sure what other options they offer or will do.

Engine choice is currently 302W, 351W & 4.6l modular motor.

They are more than happy to accomodate anything you would like to do. For example, I know Lee has lowered his engine significantly and they have gone to a lot of trouble to accomodate it. They have also produced a race orientated spherical joint front arm set up. Less compliance than bushed front arm set up, so only for more serious track cars.

Website: http://www.gt40australia.com

Anyway, another recommended option. Good Luck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also keep in mind, the really good manufactures will have waiting lists. I think GT40 Australia has orders for 26 GT40s when I last checked.

They also support and of course keep an eye on these forums.

 

[Howard Jones]

My first move if I lived in the UK would be to seek out the GTD club and attend one or more of their meetings. You will be able to touch feel and get first hand information from people who have developed the GTD as much as anybody. Then get in touch with the MDA guys and drive over their if you can arange a meeting.

Track performance. If you are talking about lap times at a given track fast enough to repeatly beat a Ultma then seak out others who have developed race cars for advice on setup of race cars. This is a subject that has no end to it and I surely can't finish here. BUT if you want to go out and play with other 400hp 2400 pound mid engine cars on slicks then all of the your short list will be fine.

As in all very high performance sports cars, performance = $$ + development.

I have a GTD that I started 5 years ago and I am at the development stage. Really basic sorting of systems stage.

At that time I was onlt aware of one of the ausie cars, I can't remember witch one, ERA's and GTD's. My buget would only allow for the GTD.

Today I would buy a RF with a G50 type gearbox and a 400+ inch stroked 351. Spend a lot on brakes and an extra set of wheels for slicks, roll bar, fire system, then have at em.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

John,
Howard is right. I would recommend meeting some of the members from either of the 2 clubs: GT40 Enthusiasts (www.gt40enthusiastsclub.com) or the GTD Car Club (www.gtd40club.co.uk). Members will be able to show you their cars and give advice (maybe even a ride). The Enthusiasts club has regular meetings (see the website), but I believe the Detling Kit car show (Kent) is a few months away and then the GT40EC AGM is at Stoneleigh in May so you could come there as well. You can also check out the GTD club for when and where you can see the cars racing, and beating Ultimas and also JPs F40 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Brett

 

[Ian Anderson]

John

First meeting of this year for the Surrey Enthusasts section is Wednesday 12/01/04 at the Farimile in Cobham Starts about 8 until throwing out time.

Normally a wealth of information available

See you there???

Ian

 

[Darrell]

John
patience is a virtue they say, may I seggest you spend as much time as you can bare in researching your project and find the car that suits you. I spent 18 months, visited three manufactures and spoke to not only dealers but owners of turn key cars and owners who built their cars and made a list of what I wanted in a car. You have made a good start by using this forum, good luck and enjoy.

Darrell very happy DRB owner/builder

 

[John W]

Thanks for the info guys.

Patience eh. Well I built a Car way back in 84 and have been wanting a GTD since around 89, so I guess I am very virtuous /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I have come very close to signing the cheque several times in the past, but other things have cropped up to change my plans. Now though I have decided to stop dicking about and get on with it !
Consequently I have spent the last couple of months once again researching, after discovering GTD are no longer.

Craig, I've not considered DRB. I'll do a bit more research...

Ian, I'd love to come to the fairmile (I used to live near there and have attended meets many years ago) but it clashes with another appointment. Maybe next month.


Howard, your 5 years and still at development is what scares me. I really want to build and drive the thing.

I will view an RF40 in a couple of weeks at Rick Chattell's place, and hope to have a good look around an MDA shortly too.
I like the look of the ERA (closest to original, monocoque chassis, most sorted), but wanted to hear other peoples opinions of what I considered my shortlist.
Ideally I want a kit that has all/most of the problems ironed out and doesn't need the sort of mods you mention Lee has carried out Craig. If that costs more for someone else to have done the development, then so be it.

I'll keep digging.
If you have any other info or thoughts I'd love to hear it.

A couple of further questions:
- are all the gearbox options up to the torque/bhp put out
by a well tuned 351 ?
- Has anyone used the later 6 speed 993/996 porker
gearbox rather than the G50 ?

Cheers all, you are a wealth of information.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

John,
I got a quote a while from Porsche and it equated to to something like £11.5K + VAT for a box, or £10.5K + VAT with locked diffs. I see that even Ted at Ultima knocks his boxes out at over 9 + VAT, so unless Douglass Valley can sort one then it could be expensive, and if you do for the later option the receipt may become an issue.

Also, don't forget CAV/Autofutura in SA. They are back up and running now. If you need to speak to someone, then Brian Yeomans (GT40s ID = briany, if I remember correctly) has one and is currently in build. I have details on pricing etc, as John Spence has forwarded something for the magazine due out next month (that's another reminder to all contributors).

As for the gearbox, I know that the conversion on the Renault has been known to standup to over 550. I have also heard of someone in the UK working on an 016 upgrade, but I will leave it to them to diveluge, as they use this forum and I don't know how far along they are at the moment.

BTW I have one of Roy Smart's GTD Cchassis with a Chris Melia body. If you want to come and see you are more than welcome.

Brett

 

[John W]

Thanks Brett.

My reason for looking at the late porker 'box is that I know my way around them, and can probably get one a lot less than the 10k your suggesting. Why would the receipt be a problem - proving its history for a new reg ?
I thought the rules were 80% of the car had to be new. Is it 80% of the value of the car instead ?
If so, how do you get on for using a rebuilt engine ?

Been speaking via mail with Rick again since my last post.
He tells me the RF uses an A8 box. I would assume these aren't new ones...

I looked at CAV but they didn't make my shortlist for a few reasons.
ERA is top of my list (price and delivery scare me though), with RF second at present.

Cheers,
John.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

John,
To gain a new registration, the DVLA allows only 1 remanufactured part, this is ususally the engine.

[ QUOTE ]
Where all the parts of a vehicle are supplied new by the manufacturer. Subject to the provision of satisfactory receipts and a Certificate of Newness these vehicles will be registered under a current registration mark.

Kit cars which been built using not more than one reconditioned component will also be registered under a current mark. This is subject to the provision of satisfactory evidence that the component has been reconditioned to an "as new" standard. An ESVA/SVA/MSVA test will be required.


[/ QUOTE ]
Be careful on the difference between reconditioned and remanufactured though... best check with DVLA for their view (in writing).

However, categorically speaking, a manufacturer can supply you with a kit that has all new parts, complete with a certificate of newness, if you know what I mean /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

However, on the box front I almost forgot. You can also use a RBT 6 spd. JimmyMac here on the forum has one for his MDA and got it at a very reasonable price.

Brett

 

[Dan W]

The RF 6spd box is a new unit.

 

[Lee]

John
Happy hunting. If there is one thing I have learnt while being around 40s, it is patience. Current waiting times for Tornado and DRB are very long. I believe ERA are even longer but not sure. CAV may be quite short at present while I guess RF is somewhere in between. JP was having his MDA turnkey built for quite a while and has now decided to get an F40 instead. Hopefully we will soon see JPs car as a running demonstrator, and I guess Jimmy Mac's MDA is somewhere near completion but I'm not sure. I would really like to see the MDA driven in anger. It nearly made it to Goodwood last August, but not quite. Mark really needs to get his demonstrator out on the road and track for people to see. Until then, for me, it remains a hopeful rather than a candidate, particularly if you intend using the car on the race track.
If you want to be driving a 40 within the next year you will almost certainly have to buy one already built from somewhere other than a manufacturer. The only manufacturer who probably has a hope of delivering a turnkey to your spec within a year is Auto Futura CAV (sp?).
Apart from Autofutura you will even struggle to have a body/chassis with fitted panels delivered within 1 year. Then depending on your experience, time available and/or resources 1 - 2 years to build it.
As detailed on my website, DRB offered me the closest to my 'best possible' spec, and back it up with real cars out there, some built by owners, and some by the factory, being driven on the roads and on the tracks. I visited the factory and had a run out it flatchat's car during one of the monthly owners get togethers at the factory. Who else has a monthly owners get together at the factory? No-one.
This gave me an awful lot of 'real world' confidence. I could see it with my own eyes. The only thing DRB are doing to my car which they have not done before is lowering the engine even more than usual and having an exhaust manifold made to suit the lowered engine and the unusual heads I am using. The attention Peter has paid to achieving this is first class. As standard the engine is mounted low relative to manufacturers who use Audi or Renault transmissions, because DRB is based around the G50 series of transmissions, but I wanted to go that little bit further and will be running a dry sump.
So I get the G50 basis (for strength and engine low C of G), evidence of cars being tested in track conditions, all matching parts available from one manufacturer, and good factory backup.
As I said before patience is something I have learnt, as have most people who want something out of the ordinary. If you want a standard spec road car, I am sure you can shorten some of the times compared to my time scale for my special car, but the figures above will be a good guide to the reality, rather than the dream, but do your homework, and VISIT the manufacturers. Australia isn't really that far away when you're looking at such a large investment of future time as well as money.

 

[Mike Christian]

As of today - I called and asked Peter at ERA - their lead time for a kit is 1.5 years.

Mike

 

[Craig White]

You've certainly got to have patience with lead times most manufacturers have.

You can always try the option of finding a 2nd hand example either partly completed or completed. Then modify to suit. This is the path I have taken. I bought a completed car that I'm going to rebuild to my tastes and standards. Most of the expensive and work is already there and luckily I found something close to what I would have done for the right price.

This is the first time I tried this and I can see that it certainly has it's pitfalls and I won't know till I'm finished whether it was the right way to go. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've built 2 x Cobra replicas(DRB & Harrison) in partnership with my brother and both were from body/chassis stage as there wasn't anything available in the 2nd hand market that was suitable. Longest lead time for either Cobra chassis was only a couple of months.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

There is another option if you live in the UK...you can contact Kerry Adams at Adams-McCall Eng in Hampshire and he can build you a dead-nuts monocoque in steel or aluminum. You can get a body from Chris Melia or from SAfir in USA. Of course you will still have to acquire ALL the running gear and all the small bits as I am having to do now...quite an ordeal.
A GT40 doesn't weigh much. A good small block 302 or 331 will propel the car at ridiculous speeds- Ford won LeMans with those cars and the small-block GT40s could do 200mph on the Mulsanne. The fit is easier with a 302 block than a 351W. There's not that much vertical room back there. Based on what kits I've seen, and my interactions with their manufacturers, I would go with a RF, or ERA, or GT40 Australia, I think. Anyone who is "just starting" and can "get you a car right away" I would avoid like the plague. Don't be someone's guinea pig.

 

<font color="black"> </font> John,
I have to agree with Bill on the need to look at DRB, My car arrived with all of the body wok done and the fit up was very good. The suspention options for a DRB car are pretty open, I chose chose the C4 Corvette A-Arms and then the Z06 brake package. The 3400lb Corvette has much more brake than the GT needs so the stopping power is very high.
For the motor I used a Dart block (ford) with a 347 configuration. The motor Dynos at 530 Hp and is a rocket.
The Gear box is a G50/52 and works very well.
Best of luck with this and welcome to the fold

 

[Howard Jones]

I would like to take a moment and talk a litle about the value of the process. Back in the day I used to roadrace bikes. I was in my 20s then and during that part of my life I met some of the most friendy and kindest people I ever have. Much on par with the group of friends I met during my military years.

I though that with stopping racing and working full time along with the ties of a family I had entered a new phase of my life in where I would enjoy those kind of friendships within my family.

Years passed and along came the 40. The people I have become friends with as a result of my 5 year build are again truely blessings. I can't begin to explain the value of friends who have such a common interest.

Now about the build itself. I have learned more doing this car about real world craftmanship than I knew in a lifetime up to the point I began. The complete satisfaction of teaching myself how and then doing it myself can't be put into words. This WAS FUN.

I am sure a second car would be a couple of years shorter. I did my body work myself and it took me just about a year. Oh I learned I hate bodywork but I could do a second one in a couple of months. And then there's the cost. I did a more or less complete total a couple of days ago and I came up with right at $51,000. I have no more parts to buy really that would be more than a couple of hundred of dollars in materials so this is really very close to what it cost me.

To have someone else do my car, pay for my labor at Calif rates in effect, would put that number above 80K easy. Not to mention when you do it yourself it is the way you wanted it. NOT dealing with the whole wide world of lieing fu..ups out there is gotta be worth a bundle.

Anyway I had a lot of fun, met some very nice people and learned a lot. I wouldn't have if I just bought one done I suspect. Oh and when someone asks where did you get that I get to say. I MADE IT MYSELF.

Good luck, Oh and do a 400hp 302 with a nice g50 and your'll be happy as a clam. promise.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

Jim,
There is also another option with Chris's Body, You could get hold of Roy and get him to do a GTD chassis, I don't know what state he would build it to for you, but I can only say he has been more than helpful so far with me.

I am also aware of another chassis coming to market soon, but once again I will have to defer to the person responsible (they are here on the forum).

Anyway, taking it off track slightly. Adams-McCall engineering, I really must find out if there is a family link at least somewhere /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brett