by that measure, my fill hole is significantly higher
ZF capacity and oil recommendations?
- Thread starter Bigblockquad
- Start date
JimmyMac
Lifetime Supporter
Now that would make me wonder if that is the end cover from a 'Fendt Roller' or some other industrial application that perhaps drove an auxiliary oil pump or whatever.
I look forward to being able to ask 'clone' car owners in the future........''''' Hey mate, is that a Fendt gearbox in your car """"
Jac,
There is no mention of the Fendt equipment in the ZF-1 manual.
But this box did have an optional auxilliary rear pump drive to an oil cooler with a return line to the top of the casing.
In Mike's photo, the Mangusta box appears to have a blanking plate in-situ.
I am now re-making this rear piece in alloy.
The fill hole on the side of the case is also the oil level hole, when the gearbox is in its inverted (Pantera) configuration, and is only about 20% of the way up the side of the case. It its original (GT40/Mangusta/M1) configuration, it is much higher, i.e. about 80% of the way up the side of the case. If you're filling your gearbox to that point, it's probably significantly overfilled, perhaps desperately so.
Jimmy Mac's cover appears to be the same piece. And to reiterate, my photo above shows a BMW M1 gearbox, not a Mangusta...but I believe the cast iron rear plate/filler are substantially the same. The Mangusta doesn't have the big oil pump drive gizmo sticking out the back. Jimmy's is probably either an original GT40 part, or an M1 part?
James , In Daves #10 post on this thread there is attachment pdf of the 5ds25 ZF which mentions the 'Fendt' application. Never seen one out our way, but then I dont go looking for 'Fendt' equipment on the rare occasions I get out & about!
Here's what they look like. The roller on the back is used to groom ski slopes.
I think keeping a photo of a Fendt roller in my photo archive qualifies me as the ultimate ZF dork! :laugh:
All,
I got some good words from a Mangusta owner in Brazoria, TX (outside of Houston).
He wrote to me:
====
I have a dash 1 so this is FWIW. I have attached a diagram of the dash 1 and a picture of the overflow plug.
Item 105 on the diagram is the fill and vent plug which is located on the top cover. Before I changed my oil, I measured the level through the fill/vent hole at 3" , using a tape measure as a dipstick.
I drained overnight and refilled at the fill/vent hole. My notes indicate that I used 3.2 liters or 3 qt - 12 oz. to reach overflow at the back of the case.
====
Here is an exploded view of the Dash-1 gearbox case, as used in the Mangusta (which is presumably the same, more or less, as the original GT40 case). If you click on it to enlarge it, it will appear full screen. If you click it again, it will blow up to full size, which is considerably larger than full screen, giving a good detailed look. The fill plug is part #105, and the overflow is #140.
And here is a good photo of the back of the gearbox, showing the filler plug, and uncluttered by all the junk that appears on a racing GT40 or BMW M1 gearbox:
It might be possible to drill a small hole in the top part of the boss on the back of a Dash-2 gearbox, where the overflow plug lives in the above photo, then carefully tap it and put a bolt in there. When filling, just fill from the top until oil dribbles out of that hole, and call it good. :thumbsup:
I got some good words from a Mangusta owner in Brazoria, TX (outside of Houston).
He wrote to me:
====
I have a dash 1 so this is FWIW. I have attached a diagram of the dash 1 and a picture of the overflow plug.
Item 105 on the diagram is the fill and vent plug which is located on the top cover. Before I changed my oil, I measured the level through the fill/vent hole at 3" , using a tape measure as a dipstick.
I drained overnight and refilled at the fill/vent hole. My notes indicate that I used 3.2 liters or 3 qt - 12 oz. to reach overflow at the back of the case.
====
Here is an exploded view of the Dash-1 gearbox case, as used in the Mangusta (which is presumably the same, more or less, as the original GT40 case). If you click on it to enlarge it, it will appear full screen. If you click it again, it will blow up to full size, which is considerably larger than full screen, giving a good detailed look. The fill plug is part #105, and the overflow is #140.
And here is a good photo of the back of the gearbox, showing the filler plug, and uncluttered by all the junk that appears on a racing GT40 or BMW M1 gearbox:
It might be possible to drill a small hole in the top part of the boss on the back of a Dash-2 gearbox, where the overflow plug lives in the above photo, then carefully tap it and put a bolt in there. When filling, just fill from the top until oil dribbles out of that hole, and call it good. :thumbsup:
JimmyMac
Lifetime Supporter
Mike,
I bet that you thought 'this photo will come in handy some day'.
In actual fact the shot of the rear casing is most useful to me, I have a dimensioned drawing of the pump but nothing beats this jpg
Jac,
This could great news for us.
With all this global warming and shortage of the white stuff there might be a bumper harvest in ZF-2 gearboxes soon.
No good for you James, with no snow there wont be any water in the Mataura River for you to catch that big Trout if you ever manage to sneak down this way!
No good for me either, was just thinking I could do a few patterns for a DIY-ZFJ next winter, no point if there is likely to be a flood of snow groomer trans on the market.......
No good for me either, was just thinking I could do a few patterns for a DIY-ZFJ next winter, no point if there is likely to be a flood of snow groomer trans on the market.......
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Thank you James - much as I suspected - it would be less quantity than a none "flipped" box.
I think there may be a few people checking there gearbox/trans levels in the very near future.
That fill level on the rear casing would be just about covering the input shaft and it's gears but significantly lower on the crown wheel area which was just about half immersed on the none flipped variety.
I think there may be a few people checking there gearbox/trans levels in the very near future.
That fill level on the rear casing would be just about covering the input shaft and it's gears but significantly lower on the crown wheel area which was just about half immersed on the none flipped variety.
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Dave, I would be more concerned about having to high an oil level in the GT40 application than too little, flooding the input shaft height is likely to result in oil in the clutch etc. Crownwheel lubrication is not really an issue as the crown wheel brings the oil up to the pinion & in the GT40 it only has to bring it up thru 90° ( If you compare this to say a 911 Porsche in its original Porsche application the Crownwheel has to carry the oil thru about 270° ). Biggest concern would be either end of the trans being starved in either uphill or downhill attitude for longer distances as mentioned in your pdf.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Then with that in mind, I suppose a continually operating pump and either a reservoir or cooler (the latter may also need a thermostat) would overcome that problem. I never intend to tackle hills though and driving on and off trailers is a brief interlude.
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Mike if what you say is correct, (I will not dispute you) 3 quarts puts the oil level to just to the top of the check plug in the back.
Mike do you think that machine has a 3.77 ring and pinion? If so I might start looking for one.
Mike do you think that machine has a 3.77 ring and pinion? If so I might start looking for one.
....except MORE jpgs, these from Steve Liebenow, who conveniently is building a new engine for his Mangusta so his ZF is sitting on the ground.
Incidentally, some previous owner fitted a Pantera Dash-1 dipstick to the side of the case, in place of the normal plug, which you can see on the right side in the first photo above. When the gearbox is inverted, this dipstick is effective, but in the Mangusta/GT40 orientation, it would result in a grossly overfilled gearbox.
These images are each double-resisized. When you click on the bar above each photo, it enlarges to full-screen. If you then click on that image, it enlarges again so you can get a really detailed close-up view.
These photos together should provide definitive guidance as to the proper oil level.
Result! :thumbsup:
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David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Mike,
Brilliant post and confirms my thoughts.
Cheers
Dave
Brilliant post and confirms my thoughts.
Cheers
Dave
Mike if what you say is correct, (I will not dispute you) 3 quarts puts the oil level to just to the top of the check plug in the back.
Mike do you think that machine has a 3.77 ring and pinion? If so I might start looking for one.
Mangustas mostly came with a 4.22 ring and pinion, but I do know one poor guy whose Mangusta came from the factory with a 4.5 ring and pinion gear. That, coupled with the tighter gear ratio spread normally found in the Dash-1 ZF (2.42, 1.47, 1.136, 0.958, 0.846, i.e. 5th gear is the same ratio as 4th gear in a later Dash-2 gearbox) means the engine screams when he's going down the freeway. At redline in 5th gear he can barely make 125 mph I think. :thumbsdown:
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All,
Was searching for "-1" (dash 1) fill levels on the web, as my old Pantera ZF manual conveniently deletes any such info from it's "-1" section where you would normally expect it, and ran across this older post. ) You'd think that I'd have written this down somewhere after 16 years of owning the car...
Have just had my trans out and back in over the weekend, due to exactly what a poster further up the list mentioned...and then some! 1) too much oil and 2) too much of the wrong stuff in the oil!
I last used the "fill it up until it comes out the fill hole on the rear cover" method recommended by the ZF expert, and can hereby recommend that you NOT use this method. As correctly stated previously, this puts the oil level at "above" the level of the input shaft and input seal. Doing such, along with some other problems with the trans and pilot bearing, resulted in the soaking down of my very expensive double kevlar lined clutch disc.
This wouldn't have been so bad IF I had not added friction modifier to the ZF oil to cure my sticking clutch discs in the center spool. (posi-traction clutch discs to many of you....) While it did fix the sticky discs, when my pilot bearing and front main case bearing decided to act up, I flooded my clutch with oil. (I would leave about 2 tablespoons of oil when parked...and then sometimes nothing! But it was ruining my resto job on the chassis paint!!!
Now, being the handy dandy sort of guy that I am, I dutifully cleaned the clutch disc and every thing else with brand spanking new cleaning solvent (sort of kerosene based stuff) and figured that all would be well with the world!
I rebuilt my trans, fixed the crank in my engine, patched up another chassis crack, and just recently put it all back together to head off on a jaunt to Phoenix for the annual DeTomaso love in.
Well. Not so easy. During my first run outs for testing purposes, to put a few miles on the car to make sure that my work was proper, I found that at about half throttle and above, my clutch would simply let loose and slip like a bad powerglide automatic in a 57 Chevy!!!! At will I could dip into the throttle and hear the engine climb, or simply look down at the tach and watch it head for red line! Let up on the throttle and it would hook up and all would be well.
Short story was that I decided to go on the trip and as long as I didn't press it, the clutch held fine for all of the mountain passes etc that we hit. Just didn't want to have to accelerate quickly away from any mini-vans etc!!! Cuz you couldn't! Had a great trip save for my trans linkage trunnion loosening up in Palm Springs...but easily resolved.
SO, first, I would have to say do not use any friction modifier in a trans axle unless you are absolutely certain that your seals are top shape! Perhaps don't use a Kevlar fiber disc either...in case it does leak! I figure the Kevlar fibers retained the modifier lube, even though I cleaned the hell out of it, but being synthetic, it didn't respond as expected to the petroleum based solvent. My clutch guy recommended brake cleaner, but I had no way to get into the disc and assure that anything I sprayed into the bellhousing actually made it on to the disc!
That's what this last weekend was all about. I had my guy make me up a new clutch disc. 10.4" diam, double Kevlar linings. (They are smooth engaging and don't tear up the hard parts!) My son was home from school to help me get the rear engine covers off, and it was time to get this taken care of once and for all.
I roughed up the metal surfaces on the flywheel and the pressure plate using 80 grit emery cloth and an orbital sander, to get any of this residue off of the metal.....washed with brake cleaner, sanded, and washed it all down again!!
As I replaced my front main shaft seal once again, hey, the trans was out, the seals are cheap, and I had one in stock....so it's getting a new seal! I took the time to stare at the ZF and wonder about the fill capacity.....again. Before I left for Phoenix, I dumped the lube with the modifier in it, and filled with fresh 80W-90. Figured that I'd rather not try and make things worse..... (I again dumped the oil this weekend to get totally fresh oil in place! Old oil will get used in Ford 9" rears with posi that need the modifier to keep the units from banging themselves to death!)
As I looked at the markings that I made on my oil containers, to illustrate how much I used each fill, using the LBT recommended "fill it up until it comes out the rear plug" method I could see that I used almost 3 quarts of lube. Looking at the trans from the side, I could see that this level of oil, would be at or very near the top of the main shaft! I used casting bosses on the trans to use as guides while looking.....see pics later.
What appears to be the "more correct" fill level would be to fill via the rear hole until the oil reaches the bottom of the fill hole! This is about 3/4 to 1" lower and is a total PITA to get your finger down there while the trans is in the car..... I think I had been overfilling the trans by about 1/2 litre. (Bottle has both graduations on the side, English and us over here!)
The dipstick on the side of the trans is left over from something. Not sure what, but many Mangustas came with the side mounted dipstick, which if used, would over fill the case by a surely phenomenal amount of oil, resulting in a mess of catastrophic proportions as oil would be forced out of every hole and seal in the trans as pressure built up! I cannot say why it was not discarded and replaced with a plug of sorts...... I leave mine on for some stupid reason...probably because I don't have a plug for it......
I am working on a fab'ing up a simple dipstick and measurements, to use via the top cover vent/fill hole. Once I get oil back into it, I will graduate it and post the results.
Since this hole is so conveniently placed on the trans, I still say one of the best ways to check the oil level is to simply look in the hole and make sure that you are not covering the mainshaft! I don't know why I doubted myself.....every American car manual transmission I ever rebuilt, Ford Toploader, Borg Warner T10, Muncie, T-5, Tremec....ALL have fill levels just to the bottom of the mainshaft, input or output! None of them submerge the main shaft, only the counter shaft.
If you look at the pictures, (not quite at the optimum angle, but I didn't take new ones while it was out this weekend...ugh!) if you look at the case bosses at the same level as the unused bolt holes on the side bearing covers, I figure that this level is about proper. The casting line that is just above these points, goes pretty much uninterrupted all the way to the rear of the trans, and if I had better pictures, you would be able to see that this line is above or nearly above the mainshaft entirely.
Out for now!
Steve
Was searching for "-1" (dash 1) fill levels on the web, as my old Pantera ZF manual conveniently deletes any such info from it's "-1" section where you would normally expect it, and ran across this older post. ) You'd think that I'd have written this down somewhere after 16 years of owning the car...
Have just had my trans out and back in over the weekend, due to exactly what a poster further up the list mentioned...and then some! 1) too much oil and 2) too much of the wrong stuff in the oil!
I last used the "fill it up until it comes out the fill hole on the rear cover" method recommended by the ZF expert, and can hereby recommend that you NOT use this method. As correctly stated previously, this puts the oil level at "above" the level of the input shaft and input seal. Doing such, along with some other problems with the trans and pilot bearing, resulted in the soaking down of my very expensive double kevlar lined clutch disc.
This wouldn't have been so bad IF I had not added friction modifier to the ZF oil to cure my sticking clutch discs in the center spool. (posi-traction clutch discs to many of you....) While it did fix the sticky discs, when my pilot bearing and front main case bearing decided to act up, I flooded my clutch with oil. (I would leave about 2 tablespoons of oil when parked...and then sometimes nothing! But it was ruining my resto job on the chassis paint!!!
Now, being the handy dandy sort of guy that I am, I dutifully cleaned the clutch disc and every thing else with brand spanking new cleaning solvent (sort of kerosene based stuff) and figured that all would be well with the world!
I rebuilt my trans, fixed the crank in my engine, patched up another chassis crack, and just recently put it all back together to head off on a jaunt to Phoenix for the annual DeTomaso love in.
Well. Not so easy. During my first run outs for testing purposes, to put a few miles on the car to make sure that my work was proper, I found that at about half throttle and above, my clutch would simply let loose and slip like a bad powerglide automatic in a 57 Chevy!!!! At will I could dip into the throttle and hear the engine climb, or simply look down at the tach and watch it head for red line! Let up on the throttle and it would hook up and all would be well.
Short story was that I decided to go on the trip and as long as I didn't press it, the clutch held fine for all of the mountain passes etc that we hit. Just didn't want to have to accelerate quickly away from any mini-vans etc!!! Cuz you couldn't! Had a great trip save for my trans linkage trunnion loosening up in Palm Springs...but easily resolved.
SO, first, I would have to say do not use any friction modifier in a trans axle unless you are absolutely certain that your seals are top shape! Perhaps don't use a Kevlar fiber disc either...in case it does leak! I figure the Kevlar fibers retained the modifier lube, even though I cleaned the hell out of it, but being synthetic, it didn't respond as expected to the petroleum based solvent. My clutch guy recommended brake cleaner, but I had no way to get into the disc and assure that anything I sprayed into the bellhousing actually made it on to the disc!
That's what this last weekend was all about. I had my guy make me up a new clutch disc. 10.4" diam, double Kevlar linings. (They are smooth engaging and don't tear up the hard parts!) My son was home from school to help me get the rear engine covers off, and it was time to get this taken care of once and for all.
I roughed up the metal surfaces on the flywheel and the pressure plate using 80 grit emery cloth and an orbital sander, to get any of this residue off of the metal.....washed with brake cleaner, sanded, and washed it all down again!!
As I replaced my front main shaft seal once again, hey, the trans was out, the seals are cheap, and I had one in stock....so it's getting a new seal! I took the time to stare at the ZF and wonder about the fill capacity.....again. Before I left for Phoenix, I dumped the lube with the modifier in it, and filled with fresh 80W-90. Figured that I'd rather not try and make things worse..... (I again dumped the oil this weekend to get totally fresh oil in place! Old oil will get used in Ford 9" rears with posi that need the modifier to keep the units from banging themselves to death!)
As I looked at the markings that I made on my oil containers, to illustrate how much I used each fill, using the LBT recommended "fill it up until it comes out the rear plug" method I could see that I used almost 3 quarts of lube. Looking at the trans from the side, I could see that this level of oil, would be at or very near the top of the main shaft! I used casting bosses on the trans to use as guides while looking.....see pics later.
What appears to be the "more correct" fill level would be to fill via the rear hole until the oil reaches the bottom of the fill hole! This is about 3/4 to 1" lower and is a total PITA to get your finger down there while the trans is in the car..... I think I had been overfilling the trans by about 1/2 litre. (Bottle has both graduations on the side, English and us over here!)
The dipstick on the side of the trans is left over from something. Not sure what, but many Mangustas came with the side mounted dipstick, which if used, would over fill the case by a surely phenomenal amount of oil, resulting in a mess of catastrophic proportions as oil would be forced out of every hole and seal in the trans as pressure built up! I cannot say why it was not discarded and replaced with a plug of sorts...... I leave mine on for some stupid reason...probably because I don't have a plug for it......
I am working on a fab'ing up a simple dipstick and measurements, to use via the top cover vent/fill hole. Once I get oil back into it, I will graduate it and post the results.
Since this hole is so conveniently placed on the trans, I still say one of the best ways to check the oil level is to simply look in the hole and make sure that you are not covering the mainshaft! I don't know why I doubted myself.....every American car manual transmission I ever rebuilt, Ford Toploader, Borg Warner T10, Muncie, T-5, Tremec....ALL have fill levels just to the bottom of the mainshaft, input or output! None of them submerge the main shaft, only the counter shaft.
If you look at the pictures, (not quite at the optimum angle, but I didn't take new ones while it was out this weekend...ugh!) if you look at the case bosses at the same level as the unused bolt holes on the side bearing covers, I figure that this level is about proper. The casting line that is just above these points, goes pretty much uninterrupted all the way to the rear of the trans, and if I had better pictures, you would be able to see that this line is above or nearly above the mainshaft entirely.
Out for now!
Steve
Attachments
Steve,
Dash-1 and Dash-2 fill quantities may be different, when run in the Mangusta/GT40 orientation. Lloyd Butfoy wrote the desired quantity on a tag on my someday-GT40 Dash-2; I'm on the road but I'll have Lori check what it says and report back here soon.
...update: Lloyd says 3 quarts in Mangusta/GT40 orientation. That may result in the input shaft being under the oil line? So proper sealing is very important.
As for the proper oil, the ZF manual is VERY specific and demands the use of GL4 lubricant. I've discovered that CRC sells exactly the right stuff.
http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/content/prod_detail.aspx?PN=SL24239&S=C
Almost no other oil available in the USA fits the bill. This stuff is available at NAPA and costs about $35 for a gallon.
Dash-1 and Dash-2 fill quantities may be different, when run in the Mangusta/GT40 orientation. Lloyd Butfoy wrote the desired quantity on a tag on my someday-GT40 Dash-2; I'm on the road but I'll have Lori check what it says and report back here soon.
...update: Lloyd says 3 quarts in Mangusta/GT40 orientation. That may result in the input shaft being under the oil line? So proper sealing is very important.
As for the proper oil, the ZF manual is VERY specific and demands the use of GL4 lubricant. I've discovered that CRC sells exactly the right stuff.
http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/content/prod_detail.aspx?PN=SL24239&S=C
Almost no other oil available in the USA fits the bill. This stuff is available at NAPA and costs about $35 for a gallon.
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