I am truly speechless
- Thread starter Al Wohlstrom
- Start date
He keeps biting people - I think he is happy!
You believe your opinions are based upon a logical and rational thought process, using
facts. I believe my opinions are also based upon a logical and rational thought process,
also using facts. So, either we are left with both of us with valid opinions, or one of us
has their facts wrong or does not know all of the facts. And, in this thread, I have seen
wrong "facts" (all nominations must be received by Feb 1st, which is not true), and not
knowing all of the facts (you claimed "as far as I am aware of, there is NO public policy
degree or field of education in ANY American university" as if it were fact, which is also
not true).
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. And, I believe mine is just as right as much as
you believe yours is. And, again, there are plenty of people in this world, who are deeply
involved in the global peace process and are significantly affected by how it goes, who
agree that Obama deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for exactly the reasons the Nobel Peace
Prize Committee selected him. You may not agree, and you are entitled to that opinion.
Ian
So now I am illogical and irrational based on my lack of omniscience? As I stated, I was not AWARE of a public policy degree field in any American university. You made me aware that there was. Pardon me for not being on top of that, as those degree fields were never an interest of mine (like so many of the supposedly "competent" politicians you were bestowing these imaginary degrees upon). Being unaware does not make my opinions that WERE based on fact, invalid. A statement is not, nor does not necessarily constitute a personal opinion...it is merely that...a statement. Kinda like the statements Dubya released about the Iraq War being won after the first week. How is that for competent?
An opinion doesn't give someone the right to insist falsehoods as truth, or perpetuate fraud in the name of their chosen cause. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Black is black, white is white. Being nominated and awarded a prize for NOT accomplishing something is still fraud. As would be awarding Gold Medals at the Olympics to people that never qualified or competed. But somehow you refuse to acknowledge reality, no matter how many times gravity pulls your flesh back to earth after you jump off your roof.
Your opinion may be "right" to you, but it is based on a false premise...that collusion, confusion, and collectivism somehow constitute a new interpretation of what "is" is. Words have meanings. Getting together and "cleverly" changing your interpretation of what a single word or group of words means, does not make it right to foist that new interpretation on the rest of us still sane enough to recognize when red is red.
An opinion doesn't give someone the right to insist falsehoods as truth, or perpetuate fraud in the name of their chosen cause. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Black is black, white is white. Being nominated and awarded a prize for NOT accomplishing something is still fraud. As would be awarding Gold Medals at the Olympics to people that never qualified or competed. But somehow you refuse to acknowledge reality, no matter how many times gravity pulls your flesh back to earth after you jump off your roof.
Your opinion may be "right" to you, but it is based on a false premise...that collusion, confusion, and collectivism somehow constitute a new interpretation of what "is" is. Words have meanings. Getting together and "cleverly" changing your interpretation of what a single word or group of words means, does not make it right to foist that new interpretation on the rest of us still sane enough to recognize when red is red.
Ian,
I was in Sunny Italy when the news came out. I saw video news on RAI, the Italian TV network quoting a statement from the Vatican that said they couldn't understand why he was given the Nobel Peace Prize when he supports abortion (the view here is abortion is a violent act and not peaceful).
One of the local Catholic papers headlines in the UK said that the Vatican was pleased with the nomination.
So I guess the news is in the interpretation.
Also, from my various news sources, no one has said he deserves the prize yet. The comment was: "the prize committee can wait a year or two."
I was in Sunny Italy when the news came out. I saw video news on RAI, the Italian TV network quoting a statement from the Vatican that said they couldn't understand why he was given the Nobel Peace Prize when he supports abortion (the view here is abortion is a violent act and not peaceful).
One of the local Catholic papers headlines in the UK said that the Vatican was pleased with the nomination.
So I guess the news is in the interpretation.
Also, from my various news sources, no one has said he deserves the prize yet. The comment was: "the prize committee can wait a year or two."
This summary and quote from a member of the committee puts it into perspective for me:
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/world/10nobel.html
There is more in the article, but they are essentially saying that what he has done so far,
coupled with the potential his policies have, is why they selected him. It is not all about
his potential but what he has already accomplished.
Ian
Ian,
I read the complete article, and skepticism from all parties seems to be there.
Yes, I will give you the credit in the change in attitude here in Europe from the Bush administration (who was not liked), to the general belief that something will change. Obama called the Russian missile crisis correctly, and I applaud the work done towards smoothing out that very important relationship. Yet in a diplomacy battle, my money goes on Putin.
The second issue Obama has to deal with now is to start making decisions. Today I understand that he is not willing to up the troop levels in Afghanistan, after the surge in Iraq worked. One of the comments I heard was "increasing troop levels might put off his left wing support during the upcoming health care vote." Obama got only 47 votes in the senate and risks loosing a number more.
Lastly, the global economy is in a mess, and he has followed Gordon Brown's lead. No leadership tehre. The UK economy is in a real pickle now, and I don't have to tell you by how much.
Remember the 2010 election race will be starting shortly, and if Obama doesn't start moving in the right direction, the democrats will be cooked. So much for my comments.
Dom
I read the complete article, and skepticism from all parties seems to be there.
Yes, I will give you the credit in the change in attitude here in Europe from the Bush administration (who was not liked), to the general belief that something will change. Obama called the Russian missile crisis correctly, and I applaud the work done towards smoothing out that very important relationship. Yet in a diplomacy battle, my money goes on Putin.
The second issue Obama has to deal with now is to start making decisions. Today I understand that he is not willing to up the troop levels in Afghanistan, after the surge in Iraq worked. One of the comments I heard was "increasing troop levels might put off his left wing support during the upcoming health care vote." Obama got only 47 votes in the senate and risks loosing a number more.
Lastly, the global economy is in a mess, and he has followed Gordon Brown's lead. No leadership tehre. The UK economy is in a real pickle now, and I don't have to tell you by how much.
Remember the 2010 election race will be starting shortly, and if Obama doesn't start moving in the right direction, the democrats will be cooked. So much for my comments.
Dom
How ironic - from an organization that supports pedophilia - not quite a peaceful act either I suppose.
SpyderMike
I am not a catholic personally but to suggest the Catholic church supports kiddie fiddling is total and utter bullshit and you know it. Don't make retarded comments.
Regards
Jack
PS - I know sometimes stuff gets lost in translation, particularly on the internet, and particularly sarcasm, so if you were being sarcastic then disregard my comments.
I am not a catholic personally but to suggest the Catholic church supports kiddie fiddling is total and utter bullshit and you know it. Don't make retarded comments.
Regards
Jack
PS - I know sometimes stuff gets lost in translation, particularly on the internet, and particularly sarcasm, so if you were being sarcastic then disregard my comments.
As I said, there doesn't have to be a reason, Obama supporters will believe anything given enough time to make an excuse. His cabinet is questionable at best, a number of tax evaders, a racist with communist sympathies that was wise enough to quit. Acorn that BO was an officer of. But all this can be explained away. Sure, he should get the award, 20 days or 8 months, it's still a farce. Now I just don't bother saying my grandmother was from Norway. BO was impressive in Russia, they wouldn't even shake his hand. Lack of respect, ya think? Which world leaders, Chavez and the Castro boys? The world is not impressed, they're looking for a way to capitalize.
...and lets not forget the seriously unbelievable situation with Fox news. I mean this guy has got the biggest dream run with the media where the ass kissing goes so far that NBC was even fact checking SNL skits that criticized Obama (Don't ever remember that happening to another politician) and as soon as someone disagrees with him he wants them banned. Honestly if that was a Republican there would have been riots. To the credit of the other networks they gave the White House a collective - "I don't f*%king thing so".
Personally I really like Obama. I mean that. He obviously gives an impression of being a down to earth guy, but his getting the Nobel Peace prize for what he "might" accomplish takes an already vastly discredited award (Gore????? WTF) and sends it further down the toilet.
All those jokes about Obama being given the 100m gold at the London Olympics because he gave a great speech about how hard he was going to train are dead on. That is the exact equivalent of what happened with the Nobel prize. If you actually examine closely what he has actually done and even what his polices are, particularly with regards to the middle east, they aren't really that different to GWB. It is just the perception that he is vastly different. Sure his speeches have a different tone, but his actions and policies don't.
And once again, I actually like Obama. McCain was too old and no tmuch of a candidate, Palin un-electable (possibly because the media never did any of that fact checking of the SNL team that they recently have started and despite all those jokes about her being 1 step away from the bombs I actually worry WAY more about Biden. That guys is an embarrassment.)
ANyway I have banged on enough. I am not even an American so what the hell do I know.
JW
Personally I really like Obama. I mean that. He obviously gives an impression of being a down to earth guy, but his getting the Nobel Peace prize for what he "might" accomplish takes an already vastly discredited award (Gore????? WTF) and sends it further down the toilet.
All those jokes about Obama being given the 100m gold at the London Olympics because he gave a great speech about how hard he was going to train are dead on. That is the exact equivalent of what happened with the Nobel prize. If you actually examine closely what he has actually done and even what his polices are, particularly with regards to the middle east, they aren't really that different to GWB. It is just the perception that he is vastly different. Sure his speeches have a different tone, but his actions and policies don't.
And once again, I actually like Obama. McCain was too old and no tmuch of a candidate, Palin un-electable (possibly because the media never did any of that fact checking of the SNL team that they recently have started and despite all those jokes about her being 1 step away from the bombs I actually worry WAY more about Biden. That guys is an embarrassment.)
ANyway I have banged on enough. I am not even an American so what the hell do I know.
JW
They have been turning a "blind eye" to that problem for years and it has cost them dearly.
Jack, You are able to post your thoughts - so can I. They copped to it - to the tune of billions. Why pay if it was BS? If it wasn't dealt with and in some cases ignored it and let the perps continue, how is it not being supported?
Al, that is the point I was making - people in the organization knew and they did little (to my knowledge) to help the victims or the perps. They simply defrocked, resigned or re-posted the people. It is not BS as far as I am concerned.
Sorry for the thread drift.
Al, that is the point I was making - people in the organization knew and they did little (to my knowledge) to help the victims or the perps. They simply defrocked, resigned or re-posted the people. It is not BS as far as I am concerned.
Sorry for the thread drift.
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Hi Al and Mike
I am not disagreeing with you that the Catholic church handled it like a bunch of idiots. All the guilty bastards should have been openly exposed (no pun intneded) and thrown away in jail. All I am saying is that with the thousands of catholic priests around the world who never did anything wrong and who would have been deeeply ashamed of the actions of those clergy who were scumbags on the balance of things - it is ridiculous to say that the Catholic church supported the acts.
It is one thing to have no idea how to react and try sweeping things under the carpet inthe hope it all goes away, it is another thing completely to "support" something. I guess it could come down to semantics but I think the good done by the catholic church over the last 100 years far, far, far outweighs the bad. Again, i would like to stress I am most certainly not a Catholic, I just have seen in my home town all the positives inthe community that the various priests have done with the elderly, with schools etc, and I think they cop a fair bit because they are an easy target who don't go chopping your head off or having riots in major cities if you say bad stuff about it or draw cartoons.
Now if you want a religion that seems to support kiddie fiddling, what was that religion where the founder of it married a 6 year old girl? That to me would be a more worthy target of your snears.
Regards
Jack
PS - sorry for the thread drift as well.
I am not disagreeing with you that the Catholic church handled it like a bunch of idiots. All the guilty bastards should have been openly exposed (no pun intneded) and thrown away in jail. All I am saying is that with the thousands of catholic priests around the world who never did anything wrong and who would have been deeeply ashamed of the actions of those clergy who were scumbags on the balance of things - it is ridiculous to say that the Catholic church supported the acts.
It is one thing to have no idea how to react and try sweeping things under the carpet inthe hope it all goes away, it is another thing completely to "support" something. I guess it could come down to semantics but I think the good done by the catholic church over the last 100 years far, far, far outweighs the bad. Again, i would like to stress I am most certainly not a Catholic, I just have seen in my home town all the positives inthe community that the various priests have done with the elderly, with schools etc, and I think they cop a fair bit because they are an easy target who don't go chopping your head off or having riots in major cities if you say bad stuff about it or draw cartoons.
Now if you want a religion that seems to support kiddie fiddling, what was that religion where the founder of it married a 6 year old girl? That to me would be a more worthy target of your snears.
Regards
Jack
PS - sorry for the thread drift as well.
When an organization trains an employee, pays and/or supports an employee, assigns/reassigns them posts, censures those employees and/or bans them from performing their duties...what do you mean the Catholic Church didn't support the acts of these rogue priests? They knowingly moved them from congregation to congregation...after "investigating" rumors and whispers of impropriety. Why do you think these priests were moved...just for the fun of it? It's called damage-control...our government does exactly the same thing. The Catholic Church IS a government. How many other religions have their own elected official AND a country/capitol?
As for all the "good" that the Catholic Church has sponsored, let's not also forget those little things like the Inquisition, the assorted Crusades, and selling of Indulgences (among a plethora of other misbegotten activities) throughout the last 2000 years. Charitable acts do NOT absolve a person or enterprise of bad behavior prior to now. That is highly suggestive of endorsing those behaviors, with the belief that the ends justify the means. Feeding a shut-in somehow negates the atrocities of forced conversion and torture? Or is it just because those activities occurred before your birth that makes them null & void in the current course of life? History is forgotten by man because he has a convenient memory. I daresay your attitude would be much different if you had been a victim of an overzealous religious organization forcing their will and ill behavior on you.
As for all the "good" that the Catholic Church has sponsored, let's not also forget those little things like the Inquisition, the assorted Crusades, and selling of Indulgences (among a plethora of other misbegotten activities) throughout the last 2000 years. Charitable acts do NOT absolve a person or enterprise of bad behavior prior to now. That is highly suggestive of endorsing those behaviors, with the belief that the ends justify the means. Feeding a shut-in somehow negates the atrocities of forced conversion and torture? Or is it just because those activities occurred before your birth that makes them null & void in the current course of life? History is forgotten by man because he has a convenient memory. I daresay your attitude would be much different if you had been a victim of an overzealous religious organization forcing their will and ill behavior on you.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Agreed, lets get back to the subject. My view, The Nobel prize has lost all cred.
Thanks Pete! 
It's good to know that there are some level-headed intelligent men left in the world.
It's good to know that there are some level-headed intelligent men left in the world.
Trond
Lifetime Supporter
Hmmm....
Normaly the people of USA seems to think that they deserve all the thanks in the world?
Now there is only modesty and "I don`t want this!"
Maybe president Obama has changed more than you are able to see in this short time........
Jokes aside, the peace price is just as much given as a "kick in the ass" for people that has shown interest in really making a difference. It raises great expectations to what this person can achieve in the future. For us standing outside USA Obama has definately given clear signals of a different, and in my opinion much better, direction regarding foreign politics. I think the world already has "cooled down" quite a lot after the new president started to send out signals. I think that your last president put a stamp on the average american that you dont deserve, and Obama is starting to wipe out the "negative aura" that has been attatched to USA for some years.
This of course is my opinion standing on the outside, but it is his actions outside USA tha has given him the peace price. I don not disagree that this price is cooming at an early time in his "career", but I think this year there was no better way to do this that will give better effect for the world.:thumbsup:
Just som thoughts from outside the center of the world!
Best regards from Norway
Trond
Normaly the people of USA seems to think that they deserve all the thanks in the world?
Now there is only modesty and "I don`t want this!"
Maybe president Obama has changed more than you are able to see in this short time........
Jokes aside, the peace price is just as much given as a "kick in the ass" for people that has shown interest in really making a difference. It raises great expectations to what this person can achieve in the future. For us standing outside USA Obama has definately given clear signals of a different, and in my opinion much better, direction regarding foreign politics. I think the world already has "cooled down" quite a lot after the new president started to send out signals. I think that your last president put a stamp on the average american that you dont deserve, and Obama is starting to wipe out the "negative aura" that has been attatched to USA for some years.
This of course is my opinion standing on the outside, but it is his actions outside USA tha has given him the peace price. I don not disagree that this price is cooming at an early time in his "career", but I think this year there was no better way to do this that will give better effect for the world.:thumbsup:
Just som thoughts from outside the center of the world!
Best regards from Norway
Trond
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