I never cease to be amazed!

[Jeff Young]

Chris, do you know Dennis Palatov?

 

[Nick]

YerDugliness

LOL - I realize that everyone thnks that they are moderates, but I really am! Really!

Actually there wasn't a hint of a sneer in my voice when I posted (how could your hear me?) but more of resigned dismissal.......

Here is something we have all seen before - IMO it sums it up pretty succinctly (to this moderate!)




Difference Between Liberals and Conservatives

If a Conservative doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one. If a Liberal doesn't like guns, they believe no one should have one.

If a Conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat. If a Liberal is, they want to ban all meat products for everyone.

If a Conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat his enemy. A Liberal wonders how to surrender gracefully and still look good.

If a Conservative is homosexual, he quietly enjoys life. If a Liberal is homosexual, they loudly demand legislated respect.

If a Conservative is a minority , he sees himself as independently successful. Their Liberal counterparts see themselves as victims in need of government protection.

If a Conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation. A Liberal wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a Conservative doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels. Liberals demand that those they don’t like be shut down.

If a Conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church. A Liberal wants all churches to be silenced.

If a Conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it. A Liberal demands that his neighbors pay for his.

If a Conservative disagrees with a Liberal president, he is called a racist. When a Liberal disagrees with a Conservative president, it's patriotic dissent.

If a Conservative expresses his political view, he is called an idiot. A Liberal expressing his political views is expressing his right to Freedom of Speech.

“I never use the words Democrats and Republicans. It’s Liberals and Americans.
- James Watt, Ronald Reagan’s Interior Secretary

Suppose us Liberals have the ultimate reposte though:-

Question – What is the only thing worse than an incompetent liberal President?
Answer- George W. Bush

"Now watch this drive"

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I agree with you -

Further to your point, why should agricultural employers get away with hiring illegals when auto manufacturers are stuck with high dollar union workers?

It is bad enough that the USA is being reduced to buying everything from other countries - our tax base and manufacturing capabilities are declining as a result - but now United Statesians (lol) are not even going to be competitive in the service industry jobs that illegals are going to be taking!

What is left? A great military?

In my opinion, a combination of stricter law enforcement combined with fairly draconian penalties for those who hire illegals would do most of what is needed to eliminate the problem. I do not feel that we should throw our collective hands in the air and declare the problem unsolveable -

Coincidentally, yesterday at 10AM I presented myself to the Immigration and Naturalization Service in Sacramento for my final interview and testing in order to become a United States citizen. I was approved and the ceremony should take place on July 14. A United States citizen by choice.

I moved the the USA when I was 14 with my family - I remember all the work that my dad went through in order to get here legally. To see masses of people being granted immunity rubs me the wrong way.

Congratulations Pat, well done I'll raise a glass too you on July 14.

 

[Pat Buckley]

Thanks Pete!

 

[Doug S.]

Me, too, Pat! You're a splendid example of the way I'd like to see immigration work :thumbsup: !

Doug

 

[Pat Buckley]

Thanks Doug.

I'm looking forward to voting for the first time in my life.......

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Thanks Doug.

I'm looking forward to voting for the first time in my life.......

It's a right that too many take for granted. My father said that when he was made a citizen of the US, it was the high point of his life, good luck!

 

[Jack]

Good job Pat! Congratulations...

 

[Garry]

Pat,
This is going to be a great year for you. Congratulations!
Good onya!
Garry

 

[Jim Craik]

Difference Between Liberals and Conservatives

From what I have seen in life and on this site the difference is fairly obvious, for the most part Liberals care for others and society in general and Conservatatives only care about themselves.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

No, liberals care for others and society with other peoples money, conservatives would like people that are able, to take care of themselves. That's the difference, keep the little hands out of my pockets! Work for what you want out of life, or sit under a tree and wait for someone to take care of you! I'll work thank you!

 

[Nick]

From what I have seen in life and on this site the difference is fairly obvious, for the most part Liberals care for others and society in general and Conservatatives only care about themselves.

Jim,

Have to agree, in the UK I don’t believe it was like that until the Thatcher era and her "there is no such thing as society". I can only hope that things will change with the Conservative Liberal coalition government we now have.

 

[domtoni]

Jim and Nick - liberals care for you and your money - they want it - just look at the costs to society it will bring - remember its about buying votes
Conservatives want you to be as rich as you are capable of being. When you are rich, the others will benefit because you will have more money to spend.

Just list to Any Questions on Radio 4 tonight.

 

[Jim Craik]

Domtoni

This sounds like the trickel down theory that proved such a failure in the 1980s. Typical Selfish-Conservative theory.

Why then was the last major tax increase done by Selfish-Conservatives in the 1980s'

 

[Jeff Young]

No Domtoni. Modern liberalism, at least in the US, believes in free markets, enterpenuership and capitalism. To a point. That point is where YOUR economic activity either (a) injures others or (b) is damaging or injurious to the market as a whole (monopolistic behavior, for example).

So, you are free to make as much money as you please within a framework of reasonable regulations designed to prevent societal injury. Think of that framework as being the will of the people expressed in the marketplace via government. The people do not want, for example, to bear the "cost" of a company that sells tainted milk that kills children. So that is banned.

Let's move on. Modern liberalism also believes that there are things that, for a variety of reasons, only Government SHOULD do. These are typically things that benefit society as a whole and which, if driven by profit motive, would turn into a cluster. These include police (do you really want "privatized" police?), public schools, roads, economic regulation, utilities, defense, etc.

Liberals probably do believe in a greater scope of these types of things being provided via government rather than the free market vis a vis conservatives. But I can't honestly think of a single thing that government takes care of now (in the US) that I would trust to a profit motive driven enterprise. Roads? Hell no, that means no roads to small towns. Police? No. etc. etc. etc.

So how do we pay for this? Recognizing that at its extremes, the Laffer Curve is correct -- at some point additional taxation creates an incentive not to make more money -- but also understanding that anything other than a reasonbly progressive tax structure is, in fact, regressive, we tax progressively.

At the 35%-ish highest marginal tax rates we have in the US, I simply do not see how the Laffer Curve comes into play. My tax rate at that level places ZERO role in decision making by me as to whether I should work to make more money or not. At some point that would change, at 35% it is irrelevant.

Conservatives -- reasonable ones -- have legitimate points to debate in regars to most of the above. Screaming "SOCIALISM!" or "COMMUNIST!" or posting up Glenn Beck videos are not examples of them.

Jim and Nick - liberals care for you and your money - they want it - just look at the costs to society it will bring - remember its about buying votes
Conservatives want you to be as rich as you are capable of being. When you are rich, the others will benefit because you will have more money to spend.

Just list to Any Questions on Radio 4 tonight.

 

[Jim Craik]

No one has grown government and government spending like Reagan and Bush2, Bush1 raised taxes (after promising "no new taxes"), Bush2 cut taxes then started two wars with no way to pay for them (how did that work for the economy!!).

You can blame "tax and spend" Liberals if you want, but nobody taxes and spends like Selfish-Conservatives. Just look at the numbers, if you want to keep your money, you need to vote for Liberals.

 

[Jim Craik]

Jeff,

The United States needs people like you, If you run I'll vote for you!!!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

There's never a barf bag around when you need one!

 

[Jim Craik]

Is that the best you can do?

 

[Seymour Snerd]

At the 35%-ish highest marginal tax rates we have in the US, I simply do not see how the Laffer Curve comes into play. My tax rate at that level places ZERO role in decision making by me as to whether I should work to make more money or not. At some point that would change, at 35% it is irrelevant.

And your personal fraction of the economy is not significant so your decision making process is irrelevant as well. It is staggeringly arrogant and foolish to make a politoco-economic judgement based on your own spending or working habits. That willingness to project one's own personal values onto everyone else, but enforced by the government, is what makes liberals so dangerous.

What a glorious example of that danger you have just given us!

However, back to the economic question. You have grossly oversimplified the incentive effects of progressive taxation. You have to consider the effect of the marginal tax rate on the economy as a whole. It's not a question of "whether to work" it's a question of where, how and if different entities invest that money. In this country or somehwere else? What if you are a corporation? This state or that one? This industry or that one? R&D or marketing? Employees or bonds?

Think about the wealthy. Liberals love to complain about the small fraction of wealthy people that have the large majority of wealth, but the pragmatic fact is how they choose to invest their money is a lot more important than how you invest yours, because they have way more than you do. And they're not sitting there deiciding whether or not to work.

But if the tax rate is high enough, rather than invest it in income producing activities they might just spend it on art. How's that going to affect the economy? And then remember that huge fraction of the economy driven by small businesses. Those business owners make hiring and firing decisions based on the amount of their profits they get to keep. If they can keep more, they can hire more, and produce more. People who successfully run small (or large) businesses think about them in a much more mathematically linear and sophisticated fashion than you do (apparently).

Unlike Jim C, No WAY am I voting for you.