Racing a GT40 Replica (was BEST GT40 for Racing)

[Randy V]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Hey Randy, nice clowning around there in the Cobra. FFR Cobra in SPO? How was that?

Believe it or not, the Shelby Cobra is still in the SCCA Rules as a GT1 car. My FFR was the first FFR to be LogBooked as a GT1 car. Since I had 17 x 9 wheels (which exceeds the max of 16") - I competed in SPO.

SPO is about where I figured a GT40 replica would run too. But it'd have to meet SPO cage specifications and that isn't easy in a GT40 and still be able to get in and out of the car. The SPF GT40R wouldn't meet specs for the reasons I mentioned earlier with the missing bars and so on. Historical racing associations are far more lenient with acceptable safety equipment - they have to be due to the historical foundation.

In order to be log booked as SPO, you have to first meet all the GT competition Specifications at a minimum (cage - design/size/material, fire system, fuel cell, harness system) - Then your car must be prepared to a level of performance that exceeds that of GT1 in one area or more. Mine was wheels.
Therein is the problem in getting any mid-engined car into SPO. You first have to meet the specs for the same car (or replica) that is already called out in the GTCS. I don't see the Ford GT or GT40 in there.
http://www.scca.com/documents/2011%20Tech/2011%20GCR-printed%20version.pdf

I think that you'd probably end up in a regionally administered class like ITE if you could find another professional sanctioning body (such as NASA) that accepted the car into competition in a particular class.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

I think that you'd probably end up in a regionally administered class like ITE if you could find another professional sanctioning body (such as NASA) that accepted the car into competition in a particular class.

That is where we ended up with the Lola for exactly the reasons you stated. But, ITE being regional typically is available on a case by case basis and in my case goes back to GT cage rules.

So to the original poster, I say again:

Your first question needs to be one of “with what sanctioning body will I race?"

It is highly likely that if it is SCCA/NASA legal it won't be HSR legal, and vice versa.

 

[Mike Drew]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Good thing that is cleared up. I, Randy, Jeff, Ross, Russ, Malcolm, Glenn, Paul, Mesa, and all the other racers on the forum are "clowning around". I always wondered where all the years of time and money I thought I was spending on competitive wheel to wheel racing was going.

Those third and fourth tier sanctioning bodies, which I assume to mean the SCCA or NASA, have more stringent safety and driver requirements than the historic groups. They will not accept you on track, at least not on the east coast regions, just as long as your check clears.

I'm sure SCCA and NASA would be interested to hear that YOU consider them to be lowly third- or fourth-tier sanctioning bodies! :laugh:

Of course, that's not what I said, or implied, at all. I was talking about outfits like Checkered Flag Racing Association:

Checkered Flag Racing Association

This is a great bunch of guys that likes to go out and wheel-to-wheel race in a variety of different kinds of cars, just for the fun of it. They have fun, compete in a "driver's championship", and eat beer and pizza afterwards.

Clowning around, in other words....:laugh:

An outfit like CFRA would allow any GT40 replica out there, as long as it was prepared to meet certain safety standards. There's no concern about originality, displacement, etc. etc. etc. It's true "run-what-you-brung" racing.

And it's a million billion miles away from top-tier vintage racing, which was my point that some of you lost along the way....

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

And it's a million billion miles away from top-tier vintage racing, which was my point that some of you lost along the way....

"Vintage racing????" like the "original" 65-66 Shelbys with 342 strokers, rear discs, panhard bars or Watts linkages, big Wilwoods up front and camber revised front suspensions? Like it has been said, it's racin' but it sure ain't vintage!

 

[Ian K]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

If you are not going to race in the HSR, but stick with SAAC and NASA, you should check out Iain Pretty's Roaring Forties effort. He has spent a lot of money making that car a competitor. He has posted a few videos here and there.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/22164-rf-117-a.html

Also, take a look at Ross Nicol's Roaring Forties car:

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/22992-rf-025-historic-build-ongoing-development.html

He's done some more work on the car, has a new engine in it, and has done quite a bit of track time.

But, then again, there have been some decent RCRs (Dean Lampe's for example), and even ERAs that have seen decent amounts of track time. Bottom line, spend the money correctly, and just about any of these cars can be made pretty formidable on the track.

Ian

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

I'm sure SCCA and NASA would be interested to hear that YOU consider them to be lowly third- or fourth-tier sanctioning bodies! :laugh:

Sorry I took it the wrong way. But when the discussion centered on HSR and I brought the SCCA/NASA into it, and you wrote:

But if you're talking about just going around in circles on a track, with all sorts of other dogs and cats around you (such as Miatas, etc.), then the field becomes much more open. You're not vintage racing anymore, you're just clowning around.​

Then I assumed you were positioning historical racing as the forefront of non-professional racing and other organizations, SCCA/NASA, as secondary tiers.

I feel that for amateur racing there are no better organizations in North America than the SCCA and NASA. Both have strengths and weaknesses, but they are great organizations. The SCCA is a bit "old school" and sometimes stuffy, but they've got the strongest competition on the amateur scene, in my opinion, than anything but professional racing.

The difficult thing is racing a GT40 (or Lola etc) replica in either group. It is somewhat easier in NASA, but, typically the competition is slim to none in NASA for these sorts of cars. And that isn't much fun.

"Vintage racing????" like the "original" 65-66 Shelbys with 342 strokers, rear discs, panhard bars or Watts linkages, big Wilwoods up front and camber revised front suspensions? Like it has been said, it's racin' but it sure ain't vintage!

Yeah, those "original" cars with 6 pot brakes and other modifications are highly suspect. And it is even questionable many times if it is even racing, some are parading heavily from the looks of the margins of victory.

I don't think the original poster has ever indicated his racing background or where he intends to run has he?

 

[Mike Drew]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Yeah, those "original" cars with 6 pot brakes and other modifications are highly suspect. And it is even questionable many times if it is even racing, some are parading heavily from the looks of the margins of victory.

I don't think the original poster has ever indicated his racing background or where he intends to run has he?

He's in So-Cal, and would presumably be sticking close to home.

Top-tier vintage racing allows NO real modifications of any kind, other than safety improvements like roll bars, seat belts, and fuel cells. It makes it extremely expensive to participate, because (just by way of example) GT40s at Le Mans Classic, Goodwood etc. are forced to run original cast-iron Girling calipers and solid rotors. Not even the slightest deviation from original specification is allowed.

It would be much cheaper and easier, and perhaps no more effective (no performance advantage) to run modern Wilwood calipers, for instance. But you simply can't do it.

A friend who is preparing a Pantera for vintage racing over there was forced to buy an entire De Tomaso Deauville (De Tomaso's answer to the Jaguar XJ6) just to get the brakes off of it, for his race Pantera! Because the Gr3 Pantera was homologated with those long-since-out-of-production three-piston Girling calipers and rotors, and it was cheaper to buy a whole car than to try to source the individual components! :stunned:

Steve Earle (who until recently ran the Monterey Historic Races, and still holds several other West Coast events) is even more strict--there is a post-race teardown tech inspection of the engines. MUST be original displacement and original 'tech' meaning even simple things like roller rockers, roller cams etc. are strictly forbidden. So in order to get a performance advantage you have to spend a bloody fortune.

Tony Oddo Engines (TOE) is located just down the road from me, and they specialize in creating the absolute best motors you can buy, and still stay within Earle's rules. This involves things like hand-made, non-roller-but-still-super-trick rocker arms etc., which means a proper TOE engine is usually a $40-50K proposition. :shocked:

The same level of performance can be had for half the cost if the engine builders were allowed the latitude to use whatever was available today, instead of sticking with 'traditional' technology.

Vintage really IS vintage in organizations like Goodwood and so forth.

I understand that most regional vintage race sanctioning bodies are varying degrees of more 'fluid' in their definitions of what consistutes 'vintage', and certain regions are liberal to the extreme. At the SAAC conventions, the west coast vintage race guys routinely get their asses handed to them by Curt Vogel's incredible GT350 hot rods, which come off the trailer with ultra-trick suspension systems, monster brakes, and 750 hp NASCAR motors! :shocked:

 

[F1Ash]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

I've emailed NASA, SCCA, & SVRA reps late yesterday and will hopefully get to have a conversation with them before the weekend. I'll give you the feedback on what they tell me is going to need to be changed and or what changes could potentially disallow me to run in a Specific Series.

 

[John]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Going with pure speculation without a nod to reality, I think the best GT40 for racing is ALL of them. It would be fun to see a GT40 series where each of the manufacturers' cars could compete against each other, sort of like the old Champ Car series where there were competing chassis based on the same design formula. In this case, the design formula would be the body style and perhaps a homologation rule plus a requirement for safety provisions. After that, it would be open to the teams to decide how to provision the car. And of course, Roger Penske would be involved.

 

[Pat Buckley]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

I've emailed NASA, SCCA, & SVRA reps late yesterday and will hopefully get to have a conversation with them before the weekend. I'll give you the feedback on what they tell me is going to need to be changed and or what changes could potentially disallow me to run in a Specific Series.

What is your racing experience?

 

[Johan]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Sorry I took it the wrong way. But when the discussion centered on HSR and I brought the SCCA/NASA into it, and you wrote:

But if you're talking about just going around in circles on a track, with all sorts of other dogs and cats around you (such as Miatas, etc.), then the field becomes much more open. You're not vintage racing anymore, you're just clowning around.​

Then I assumed you were positioning historical racing as the forefront of non-professional racing and other organizations, SCCA/NASA, as secondary tiers.

I feel that for amateur racing there are no better organizations in North America than the SCCA and NASA. Both have strengths and weaknesses, but they are great organizations. The SCCA is a bit "old school" and sometimes stuffy, but they've got the strongest competition on the amateur scene, in my opinion, than anything but professional racing.

The difficult thing is racing a GT40 (or Lola etc) replica in either group. It is somewhat easier in NASA, but, typically the competition is slim to none in NASA for these sorts of cars. And that isn't much fun.



Yeah, those "original" cars with 6 pot brakes and other modifications are highly suspect. And it is even questionable many times if it is even racing, some are parading heavily from the looks of the margins of victory.

I don't think the original poster has ever indicated his racing background or where he intends to run has he?

Ron, I think you should enter the Mitty at road Atlanta (an HSR event) and see how you do...see how you like it.... You could race in a group of similar cars.

 

[F1Ash]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Based on what you've all taught me so far.... Im gathering that there isn't too much difference between all the different "rolling chassis" straight out of the box (i.e. suspension geometry, weight, stiffness, structure, etc.) Is that safe to say? (Hornets nest much?!??!?) :lipsrsealed:

If thats correct; (i.e.) Than most of my performance benefits over other GT40s will come not so much from having the Superformance GT40R over the CAV GTR OR The CAV over the Pathfinder GT40R BUT from my "custom development" of the car overtime? Is that where were at?

So with all that said (if its what we feel might is pretty accurate). Than is it safe to say also that there isn't much difference between the "R" models all these guys are offering?

I'd like to hear from you guys actually driving them AND ESPECIALLY those of you driving them on Track. No offense to you gentleman from the Manufacture selling them or building them, but I feel you might have a bias! :heart: I Heart You....

Also, from the looks of what I've received back from the Historical Racing Groups/Vintage Groups. I don't think I will join them. Im going to stick with NASA and SCCA (that decision is also based on what Im hearing from you all). So that narrows that part down!

.........now back to that Hornets nest!!! :shy:

 

[F1Ash]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

What is your racing experience?

Several Years of off and on Private & Club events (meaning no full series. My business schedule doesn't allow me much more than an event every few months.

West coast tracks I've raced on: Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, Willow Springs, Streets of Willow, Cal Speedway (ROVAL).

Over the Pond: Dubai Autodrome, Nurburgring (Nordschleife), SPA in Belgium. I have a "date" with YAS Marina and also the Nordschleife again this Summer!!! :lol:

Also, shifter karts when I was younger (If that still counts)

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Ron, I think you should enter the Mitty at road Atlanta (an HSR event) and see how you do...see how you like it.... You could race in a group of similar cars.

I don't think they'd be too happy with an RCR Lola T70 replica....unless I don't understand the HSR rules set posted on the website, which is a distinct possibility. And I'd certainly have to bring more heat than the little motor it has in it now. You Group five guys in many cases have serious power!

Mr. Ash, I suggest you get in contact with your local region SCCA or NASA tech inspectors and bounce what you propose off of them. You need to know what class your proposed car will race in so it can be prepared correctly. I've been down this road already with the SCCA and having the support of your local region technical guys will make the road far easier. A few of us SCCA guys here can assist but in the end the local region has to be on board.

If you go the vintage route talk to Johan. He races various cars in vintage events and could steer you right.

 

[Jeff Young]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

My limited opinion is that you will need to do a fair amount of work getting any of these chassis/cars ready for racing.

The "R" packages might have more track friendly equipment -- better brakes, bigger sway bars, higher spring rates, but most of that stuff you can buy and install yourself. And choose what you want.

Fran's Lola replica is a stunning piece of work. The chassis is just a great design -- but you will have to roll your own on setting it up for the track. Fran builds the adjustability in, it's up to you to dial it in.

Based on what you've all taught me so far.... Im gathering that there isn't too much difference between all the different "rolling chassis" straight out of the box (i.e. suspension geometry, weight, stiffness, structure, etc.) Is that safe to say? (Hornets nest much?!??!?) :lipsrsealed:

If thats correct; (i.e.) Than most of my performance benefits over other GT40s will come not so much from having the Superformance GT40R over the CAV GTR OR The CAV over the Pathfinder GT40R BUT from my "custom development" of the car overtime? Is that where were at?

So with all that said (if its what we feel might is pretty accurate). Than is it safe to say also that there isn't much difference between the "R" models all these guys are offering?

I'd like to hear from you guys actually driving them AND ESPECIALLY those of you driving them on Track. No offense to you gentleman from the Manufacture selling them or building them, but I feel you might have a bias! :heart: I Heart You....

Also, from the looks of what I've received back from the Historical Racing Groups/Vintage Groups. I don't think I will join them. Im going to stick with NASA and SCCA (that decision is also based on what Im hearing from you all). So that narrows that part down!

.........now back to that Hornets nest!!! :shy:

 

[Johan]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Ron we just got another of Fran's T70s entered in the Mitty that was for sale on Race_Cars.com and purchased by a friend of mine. The Mitty is a special event and has always been a run what ya brung deal so long as the car meets the safety guidlines. We made sure it was allowed prior to his purchasing it. It would be welcome at the Mitty.

 

[Johan]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

And he has a street motor...

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Ron we just got another of Fran's T70s entered in the Mitty that was for sale on Race_Cars.com and purchased by a friend of mine. The Mitty is a special event and has always been a run what ya brung deal so long as the car meets the safety guidlines. We made sure it was allowed prior to his purchasing it. It would be welcome at the Mitty.

No kidding??? Then that might be pretty cool! I will check it out.

I know Jeff went to the VIR Gold vintage race some while ago, and I investigated it for my Datsun, but wasn't feeling too welcome. They required I get "old" tires and they didn't want modern graphics on my Datsun, i.e., take that skull off the hood. Not taking the skull off the hood, no sir.

 

[Jack]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

I plan on attending the "Mitty" end of April. Nice to see an RCR entered!

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Wow, this conversation really got cranked up while I was away. Great stuff all. Now, if I may summarize.

1. You can't go "real" vintage racing with anything south of $400K

2. The "R" spec cars from CAV and SPF will allow you to run in some "historic" races, but not much to run against. By the time you make them legal for NASA and SCCA, they will no longer be accepted by the historics.

3. Building a car from the various kits and bringing it up to speed for NASA or SCCA will cost $125K to $150K. Lot's of development and still no guarantee of success.

4. The Active Power GTR is purpose built for NASA Super Touring, and is ALREADY approved by NASA for such. With a unmolested LS6 it can compete in ST1, where the competition is plentiful and fierce. Swap in an LS7 or variant (sky's the limit) and move up to Super Unlimited. Everything about it is proper for this type of racing out of the box, and it costs less than $100K. Although it is not listed in the GT category for SCCA, on the regional level it will be thrown into SPO, where it should be quite competitive.