Is the right to bear arms outdated.

Whoever says that popular media doesn't influence psychos in mass shootings - I beg to differ.

I just saw the new movie Jack Reacher last night and I have to say that the opening sequence was shocking and appalling. The movie opens with a mass shooting of innocent people and it is portrayed in brutal detail through the scope of a sniper.

They delayed the movie release due to the Newton incident, but wow, I wonder if they are regretting making this now.

I know there has been some media coverage of this shocking scene, but I can't believe its not on the front page of every news paper.
 

Keith

Moderator
Whoever says that popular media doesn't influence psychos in mass shootings - I beg to differ.

I just saw the new movie Jack Reacher last night and I have to say that the opening sequence was shocking and appalling. The movie opens with a mass shooting of innocent people and it is portrayed in brutal detail through the scope of a sniper.

They delayed the movie release due to the Newton incident, but wow, I wonder if they are regretting making this now.

I know there has been some media coverage of this shocking scene, but I can't believe its not on the front page of every news paper.

I have seen reviews of this movie (having seen the violent trailers) and there is absolutely no mention of the extreme and worrying level of violence. Instead, the reviewers chose to pan Tom Cruise for his 'average' performances.

Perhaps the sight of people being gunned down is considered quite normal these days. 'Bleeding heart Sean 'Pink' Penn has also got a new movie out with predictable amounts of gore and gunfire. Hollywood, it seems, does have a bit of explaining to do..
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Yes, I do think some types of weapons and ammunition should not be in the hands of the general public.
Again, whatever you ban and/or limit will end up solely in the hands of crooks, loons, LEOs, and the military. No thank you. That is NOT what The founders intended, sir.

I think we can still make progress without some kind of widespread ban or aggressive legislation.
Good...because the 2nd Amend does not authorize either one. In fact, it clearly states in plain English that the right to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed - period. The 2nd Amend would have to be abolished or changed FIRST in order to do either one...assuming, of course, congress gives a rip about what the constitution says.

Maybe we just need more education and training programs for gun owners(!!!).
Oh, good grief! Now you're right back to messing with the GUN OWNERS again instead of hassling the perps! GUN OWNERS ARE NOT...NOT...NOT to blame for, nor do they play any part IN what crooks and loons decide to do! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!

It must feel terrible to know that one of your weapons was involved in one of these mass shootings.
You mean like if your stolen car was used as a get-away car in a deadly robbery or was involved in a fatal hit-and-run? Again, ALL BLAME lies with the perp.

Maybe there are too many loaded firearms just sitting in around in some closet barely hidden by the tux from your wedding.
Define "too many". Regardless, those guns have every LEGAL RIGHT to be there. It's THE CROOK who has no legal right to steal them.

If you live in a place like Newtown, what are you so scared of?
Well, gee, lemme see..................'name Sandy Hook mean anything to you? Do you see my point? BEFORE that slaughter, I'll bet at least 75% of the residents of that sleepy little place never dreamed something like that could happen in their town. WELL, IT DID, didn't it. Your own house could be 'visited' by an armed crook or loon tonight, sir. Let me be clear. ODDS ARE you or I will never have to deal with this sort of thing. But the possibility remains none the less and needs to be addressed. It's like the odds of your house or mine burning down. Do I "fear" that it'll happen? Nope. But, I do have home owners insurance on my place AND FIRE EXTINGUISHERS AT THE READY in case it were to happen. That's called acknowledging r-e-a-l-i-t-y in a responsible way...not "being scared".

Get a big dog, some pepper spray, take some Tae Bo classes, get an alarm system...
The first 3 won't do DIDDLEY against an armed perp...I don't care what you think after seeing Bruce Lee movies. And if he's armed with a gun and you aren't? Game over...and you won't even get the chance to put a "W" in your column.
And the alarm system? It only signals the security company that something has happened. And by the time all the various 'hoops' have been jumped thru to authorize a black & white being sent to the scene, it's just fill-out-the-paperwork and clean-up-the-scene time. The damage has already been done.

What if you do shoot someone in self defense? That might not be a happy ending. You may be wishing you shot yourself instead after you get hit with a civil suit.
Yeah, it'd be faaaaaaaaar better for ME if the perp had to deal with all that guilt and legal stuff, huh. Good lord...

As a far as crime and punishment goes, who knows? I am not adverse to capital punishment but we can't kill everyone.
'Wouldn't have to now, would we. Not everyone is a perp.

Spending tons of taxpayer dollars to house and feed all these inmates is not a great solution either.
Yeaaaaaah...you're right...'best we just slap 'em on the wrist and let 'em roam, huh.

We just have to hope that in a better economy, with more opportunity, we can keep more people on the straight and narrow.
In boom times as well as bust, we still have crooks & loons doing what they do.

Stiffer penalties will do nothing to stop someone who is that crazy anyway.
Oh, really!!!! BUT MORE RESTRICTIONS ON LAW ABIDING GUN OWNERS WILL???! Now, THAT's very interesting!

We have to focus on prevention and you can not deter some of these individuals with the fear of incarceration.
You darn sure won't deter one of those pukes by standing there dialing 9-1-1 on your cell phone, I can tell you that.

Let's face it. Logic and real world, real time reality aren't going to disswade you from the view you get through those rose-colored glasses of yours, sir. I'm afraid in your case only being on the business end of violent crime will have that effect...if you make it through the experience. God forbid that one day you actually end up finding out that way.
 
"I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six"
anon..

Deadly force should be used only as a last resort. Take my TV, etc.

I'll have retreated into the most available secure location, talking to 911 and
advising them of the situation. Armed and ready should my location be broached.

If family members are in imminent danger, I'll go on the offensive first! Without hesitation.
I think you would too.
 
Larry........... WOW!!!!

You are wound up. You need a cold shower. I read your extensive critique and all I can say is Thank You. I am being 100% honest with you. I do not think you made one good point. I can tell by your responses that you did not even comprehend some of my post. As much as I would like to, I cannot even have an argument with you. I would not know where to start. You do get the award for being the most passionate gun owner in the Paddock though. Not only do you not support gun reform, you can barely even speak of the issue.

You sure love that 2nd ammendment. You are alot smarter than me. Did they specify that everyone has a right to bear or keep arms, but only after you acquire a license and pass a background check? I looked but I couldn't find that in the language anywhere. All other readers may now skip ahead while I explain my point to Larry. We already have regulations Larry! Can't these regulations be changed to contend with new problems that arise as our society changes?

Also, please do not quote me and then insert your own words within the quote. Its polite to respond below the quote in the body of the post. You are the only one I see who does this. I will give you an example below of what not to do.

Hey guys, I'm Larry and I just got my first computer today.
 
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Larry.......... As much as I would like to, I cannot even have an argument with you.

This is the very problem that we have been discussing in the paddock. We should be involved in non personal debate of issues. Not arguments. Arguments are typically defined as heated, personal, and emotional. There is little to be learned from arguments, but much to be learned from debates.

This is the reason that the Paddock is losing its appeal to many.
 
Debate
A debate is a contest between two people of two groups of people in a contest setting. Each side knows what the topic of the debate is to be and prepares arguments. One side starts off by making their case for the point of view it is presenting and then the other side presents its case. The rest of the debate progresses as the sides rebut the points put forward by their opponents. It is very deliberate and the participants in a debate do their best to present both sides of an issue.
The word debate is a noun, but can also be used as a verb. When it is used as an action word, it changes because when it is used in a sentence as a gerund or a verb without a direct object then the meaning becomes similar to that of argument. When it is used as a verb with a direct object, it comes to mean a disagreement of some sort.
Argument
The main purpose of an argument is to persuade the other person in some way. It may start out as peaceful, but it is quite common to involve loud voices.

By deffinition, what we have on this forum are arguments, nothing is ever settled. I don't have a problem with the Paddock, those who do should avoid it. Some of us enjoy the banter. I verbally joust with Jim C and others on this forum, I wish them no ill will and have never said that I do. If people don't like the paddock, I can't imagine why they waste their time on it.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Larry........... WOW!!!!

You are wound up. You need a cold shower. I read your extensive critique and all I can say is Thank You. I am being 100% honest with you. I do not think you made one good point. I can tell by your responses that you did not even comprehend some of my post. As much as I would like to, I cannot even have an argument with you. I would not know where to start. You do get the award for being the most passionate gun owner in the Paddock though. Not only do you not support gun reform, you can barely even speak of the issue.

You sure love that 2nd ammendment. You are alot smarter than me. Did they specify that everyone has a right to bear or keep arms, but only after you acquire a license and pass a background check? I looked but I couldn't find that in the language anywhere. All other readers may now skip ahead while I explain my point to Larry. We already have regulations Larry! Can't these regulations be changed to contend with new problems that arise as our society changes?

Also, please do not quote me and then insert your own words within the quote. Its polite to respond below the quote in the body of the post. You are the only one I see who does this. I will give you an example below of what not to do.


Translation:
'I have no facts with which to counter a darned thing Larry said, so I'm going to pettifog like crazy and hope my diversions and verbal smoke & mirrors passes for a stellar rebuttal/counter argument in the eyes of some.'

And, BTW, your complaint about the quotes thing is completely bogus. There's not one person here (except you, evidently...and only because you've elected to have the problem) who can't tell exactly where your stmts ended and mine began. (Well, maybe color blind folks could have a problem.)

With regard to this one: "Did they specify that everyone has a right to bear or keep arms, but only after you acquire a license and pass a background check?" The answer is a resounding NOPE, which you undoubtedly know already...or maybe you don't. They said we have the right to keep AND bear...not keep OR bear...and that those rights shall not be infringed - which is exactly what CCW permits, licenses and all the rest DO...infringe. It should be noted that one does NOT have to get government's permission - nor pay govt a FEE - to exercise a right either. And again, that's what CCWs require folks to do! Therefore, any law passed that requires such fees and permits in order to exercise one's rights (like CCWs in fact do) are a major infringement and are/were null and void upon their signing according to the constitution itself.

So, note to you: Just because there's a law on the books does not mean it's constitutional or legally enforceable. It just means we the people have been lax in dealing with it - and/or our officials have. Let me give you a current example: Fed law says pot's illegal - period. Wash & Colo pass state laws saying it isn't. 'Constitution says federal law trumps state law. But, Obama says, 'Heeeey, the people have spoken, so no big deal'. 'Doesn't matter what HE says - pot's still illegal until the fed law is changed. Another e.g.: It's unconstitutional to exempt a specific group of people from a federal law. Via exec order, Obama exempts 800K illegal aliens from possible deportation proceedings. 'Heeeeeeeeeeeeey, >I< have spoken...so no big deal.' 'Doesn't matter what he says - doing that is still illegal until the fed law is changed.


"You sure love that 2nd ammendment."

...as everyone in this country should, because if IT falls, so does everything else. In fact, I believe one of The Founders said the same darned thing a couple centuries ago. And yet you make sound like strongly defending it is somehow a position that's 'too extreme, too extreme, too extreme' as you liberals are always so quick to claim. The Founders would not agree with you. Read the fed papers.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
I asked you this question before and you refused to answer it.

Your position is the 2nd Amendment allows no restrictions on keeping and bearing arms, of any kind?

Meaning a schizophrenic 15 year old who has committed felonies in the past can have a bazooka?

Do I have that right?
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
I asked you this question before and you refused to answer it.

Your position is the 2nd Amendment allows no restrictions on keeping and bearing arms, of any kind?

Meaning a schizophrenic 15 year old who has committed felonies in the past can have a bazooka?

Do I have that right?

Are you directing that to me?

If so, you have it wrong. Said schitzo's gun rights (or any other right) can be taken away by the courts thru due process...in this case as a consequence of his felonies. Ditto the right to vote, and so on. Were that not so, how could anyone be put in prison, for instance?

But if you read the 2nd Amend, The Founders said "the people" have the right to keep and bear...not just this or that specific guy...or this or that specific group...or only people with an I.Q. above 75, etc. It says the people. And "the people" means everybody.

If you no likey, you're going to have to change or repeal the 2nd Amend. 'Simple as that.

G'night.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Where does it say in the 2nd that a felon can't own a gun? Or someone who is mentally disabled?

And what constitutes 'arms?" Tanks? F-22s? You have a right to own a carrier battle group?

2nd Amendment absolutism is SUCH a hoot! 'Simple as that.
 

Keith

Moderator
11 posts since my post #400 and going into the toilet rapidly.

Honestly, the Paddock has become cursed :veryangry:
 
Keep the paddock. It's good to know there are people out there without a clue. Not that I have a clue either.

This thread, it's title and posts (both sides) is utterly flawed and pointless. Good luck with it.

Happy new year.
 
So for the sake of staying true to the 2nd Ammendment we should now stop all background checks and not require licensing or permits to own a firearm? Just a big free for all, thats the solution?

It took about 14 years to get most of the states to accept the first ten ammendments and the Constitution. Every state was different but basically this was around 1788-1791. It took alot of work and there were many critics along the way. Some felt having a Bill of Rights was dangerous because creating a set list of freedoms could allow exclusion of other rights not listed hence the 9th Ammendment. We now have 27 ammendments with the newest being added in 1992. Its safe to say that, the Constitution has been a work in progress since 1776. It did not arrive in a gift box from the heavens. Its not scripture. The same people who gave you the right to bear arms made sure that we had the power to change the Constitution. They must have known that we might need to do so in the future.
 
Ok bear with me (Haha thats funny)

What if Nancy Lanza survives? Could you imagine being her? She did not break any laws. She would not go to jail although I'm sure there would be plenty of lawsuits. But just imagine, having to walk around everyday knowing what your son did and that you played a part in arming and training him. She obviously had no idea what he was capable of. She was just trying to spend some time with him and build his confidence. She took him to the gun range. He built up enough confidence to visit an elementary school but not quite enough to visit the local high school. He was quiet. He did not seem to make any threats in the past. He had no criminal record. It does not seem like much could have been done to stop him. Nancy's family members say she enjoyed target shooting and wanted the guns for protection. That seems silly now. Do we even know if she wanted the Bushmaster or did she get it because Adam showed an interest in it? Was she that desperate to have a relationship with her son, that she bought him an assualt rifle? Was that the only way to get him to leave his computers in the basement? It sounds like that is where he spent most of his time from 2009-2012. I am not sure if it has been verified, but reports say that he did enjoy violent video games. I guess that is not abnormal, for a 20 yr old though.

Its hard to find the red flag. If there was one only Nancy Lanza could have spotted it. Those were her weapons though. No one gave Adam Lanza a permit or license. No one sold him a firearm. Its not her fault that he killed all those children, but could you imagine being her. How could you not feel responsible? How could you not want to do everything possible to protect your own personal firearms from getting into the wrong hands?
 
I'm sure that if you were able to go into records from school psycologists starting in grade school, and psychiatrist that saw him over the years , there were many red flags. His mother was thinking about committing him, red flag. Don't you think that if your kid is wacked out enough to shoot you four times in the face, you might have had an inkling of this for quite a while prior? "Bushmaster" is a company brand name for an replica AR15 semi automatic rifle, it's not an "assault" weapon.
 
I don't think its hard to find the red flags.

In all of these shootings, everyone knew that the shooter had issues. Despite what the media says, many people who knew these shooters are not surprised after they learn about what happened. It might have been more difficult in Nancy's case because she was the mother. We don't know what kind of person she was, but we know that parents treat their kids differently.

Chris, some of your points concerning gun control seem to be confusing. In this case, how would any level of gun control have stopped this shooting? Registration? Permits? Background checks? What would it have done?

BTW, the Constitution is not a living document. The 27th amendment was first proposed in 1789 and was then ratified in 1992. If it takes 203 years for an amendment to go through, I guess I'm ok with that.
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
How about this scene:

Not far from here on Christmas Eve, a felon convicted of killing his grandmother with a hammer years ago and now paroled, set fire to his home. After killing his sister with whom he lived and is said to have hated. He then also set fire to neighboring homes. He then waited in ambush until the volunteer fire department arrived and began shooting. He wounded two firefighters and killed two more before offing himself. One firefighter was a 19 year old 911 dispatcher and the other a 44 YO police officer who also served his local fire department. More than seven homes burned to the ground as the first responders were unable to get to them. The police evacuated homes using an armored vehicle to protect the residents as they were unsure if the shooter was still active.

As a convicted felon he was unable to purchase or own weapons. He instead got the 22 year old girl next door to buy them for him, she is now under arrest.

He left a long, detailed note that he was "doing what I do best, killing people".......pray tell, how do we deal with situations like this? How can we identify and restain someone who has such twisted thought processes? And what of the "straw buyer" who armed a convicted felon?

I wish I knew the answers..............
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Rick,

We will always have folks on the edge of sanity, when we have millions of guns sitting around***NO*** laws will stop a determand person from getting a gun!

The only way to stop the a determand person from getting a gun and end the slaughter is to remove the guns.

You can blame it on the Mother, the police, the laws, the school, vidio games, mental problems, you can blame it............................................on and on.

But in the end its the guns!
 
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In a search, I did not find penalties associated with buying firearms for a felon. There should be a stiff penalty with no bargaining privileges and it should be posted in gun stores.
 
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