How much is too much?

[Jim T]

Since I've been on this Forum, I've read every build thread several times and I'm constantly amazed by the creative innovative ingenuity of the talented builders on this site. Having personally committed the classic mistake of “over building”, I'm reminded that creativity and innovation and just being different all cost bucks...big bucks!


With my SL-C delivery getting closer, I wondering if I'm going to have the discipline to stick to my budget and be able to say its time to stop and be content with a nicely appointed finished car at a realistic recoup-able price? Or will I shoot for perfection and attempt to do an exquisite car at a realistic non-recoup-able price?


My question: are any of you talented SL-C builders concerned that you “over built” (over spent your potential market place) to the extent that it will be impossible to recoup the dollars you've expended. I realize that cars (most cars) are not a gold standard investment; so I'm not talking about making a profit or even getting paid for my labor. I'm just talking about getting reimbursed for parts, materials, machining costs, etc. Or do you believe that because of the rarity and uniqueness of the SL-C , it will defy established “over build” rules most other cars are subjected to?
Jim

 

[Will Campbell]

I think it is probably a mistake to go into a car build of any kind with the idea that you will recoup certain costs from the sale of the car later.

As has been mentioned numerous times before, cars depreciate. And kit cars, probably even more so.

If you are worried about taking a financial hit from a kit car resale when you haven't even built the car yet, I wonder if you aren't thinking of the endeavor backwards?

These cars should be enjoyed for the build process, and the driving, IMO. Financially, they should be considered a toy, with all the financial implications of that.

Having said that, it's clear to me that the SLC maintains its value at a much higher level than other "similar" kit cars. For example, consider the GTM, many of which languish for years trying to be sold at prices the market doesn't apparently support--I think Richard Oben's car was originally for sale for $90K. Now, 5+ years he still hasn't sold it for a current asking price of $50K. Contrast that with the sale of Tim's red SLC recently, and others, which were near $100K.

But in any case, I think it is a mistake to think of these cars as investments of any sort. Build it how you want it, and enjoy it. When it comes time to sell, a better car will always be worth more.

At least that's the approach I'm taking.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

At the present time there is no set price for a finished SLC, and sales prices are all over the place. I've seen them for sale at $150K and know of sales in the mid $80k range. I can tell you by personal experience that it's not too hard to exceed the $100k mark without counting labor. I built a Kirkham 427 aluminum Cobra with an aluminum 427 stroker. I sold it for $110K, and most comparable Kirkhams are within $10k of that price. Being that there is such a wide variety of builds with the SLC, I think the dollar spread will be a lot more. So people are not willing to spend a lot when they think they can get something for less. If you are looking to sell the car in the near future, I would pick a middle ground and stick to the budget. And don't even think about your labor coming into the picture.

 

[Mike]

I truly believe you would get, at least, your parts costs back in the sale (sans labor). Fran is also smart enough NOT to discount the kits and dilute their value. Plus there aren't many on the road yet (availability) - unlike some of the other component vehicles which can be easily found and bought. Just my opinion -- build it and don't look back or second guess yourself.

 

[Grant S]

Budget, whats that ?

 

[Doug S.]

And now for a thought from someone on the other side of the fence....I don't believe I could bring a SLC to completion. Every build thread I read, and it's been almost all of them, have WAAAY too much "fettling" during the build process, and that's mind boggling, not to mention the "sorting" after the build.

If I just HAD to have an SLC, a well built one would be worth a premium price IF it were built to the purpose I had in mind. For me it would have to be weather tight and street-capable, for others a "breezy" racer would be just the ticket....it takes a very good grasp on the market to get it right with so much distance between the two.

We had a member who had an incredible GT40 build thread...soon as the car was completed he put it up for sale. Many of us were just perplexed at how he could do that and asked why....his answer was something to the effect of "some guys like to play golf, I like to build cars". If that's what you like to do, then you've gotten your money's worth in taking the journey through the build and the final accounting doesn't matter.

Cheers!

Doug

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Doug,
the SLC as delivered can be assembled without "fettling" especially as its has matured over the last 5 years.
With that said it is light years easier the build than any GT40 replica.....

The SLC also provides a great canvas for guys that want to build their car, their way....again it does not have to be that way...they just choose to make it so.

Zakari (Allan) ,the guy that just finished another customers SLC did so with very few "add ons" and completed the build in less than 300 hours including paint...this was his 5th RCR build and he has at least three more on the books...

 

[Alex]

I've always thought kit cars are unique - if you find the right buyer and right time you can command your price (within reason), otherwise you're going to get raped if you try to sell.

I've even seen a basic 5.0 ffr cobra build sell for ~65k. The one thing I hate about the FFR guys is they're always looking for a reason why any car for sale is overpriced and isn't worth more than $10k.

Contrast that with the sale of Tim's red SLC recently, and others, which were near $100K.

Didn't Tim take a steep loss on his car?

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

If Tim took a loss is was due to him paying someone else to do the build and he lost labour costs.
Having had the car at RCR for track updates over the winter the buyer got a good deal and the costs of parts seemed to be about right for the sales price.

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

That's why I made the decision to build my SLC strictly by the book...

...as narrated by the voices in my head.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Now thats funny.....

 

[Jim T]

<quote in-part>
If you are worried about taking a financial hit from a kit car resale when you haven't even built the car yet, I wonder if you aren't thinking of the endeavor backwards?

When does a prudent person start thinking about closing the barn door....before the horses escape or after its to late? :idea:


IMO, I think its prudent to consider ALL aspects of the build process prior to beginning the process. In reality... financial 's are one of the aspects of the total process for many of us.


My two cents opinion is my financial contribution to this conversation. :laugh:
Jim

 

[Troy Truglio]

I think if you do a pretty straight forward build, use an LS376 with a G50/20 or better gear box and keep it simple without crazy individual items you should get your cost out of it without to much hassle, assuming your labor is for free.

Now the question is, how many of us actually do that? Me flat plane, custom paint instead of white (probably) and other items, others, 3-4 rotor, giant hp motors, custom this or that, ect. Each car can have a ton more hours and money into it and a lot do. I went in with a budget and then when doing the car I wanted a specific car for myself so I said F U Budget and have not told the wife much yet and my thought is if I spread out those costs of items over a period of time she will either get used to me paying this and that or it just is part of life. Now I am building the car I want.

 

[Howard Jones]

There are a couple of risks to think about. First you finish the car quickly, with all the buget minded "standard build" pieces, low investment paint job and then drive it a while only to find a dozen things you wish you had done your way the first time. Everything costs a lot more the second time than it would have been if time had been taken to think the issue through and do it right the first time. You haven't really finished quickly because you find yourself doing things over and the car is out of service while you do them.

If I knew what I really wanted to do with my GTD going in, it wouldn't have taken 8 years to finish. 4 to build it and 4 more to develop it. Trans-axle twice (and back to England to do it) complete redesign and replacement of the brakes, damn near all re engineered suspension, wheels and tires, and on and on. Thankfully the SLC looks like the basic engineering is pretty good so there's not much to develop beyond set up if all the right parts are there to begin with.

Secondly, You can do a "eyes much bigger than you stomach" so to speak build. Farm out the build labor, $20K paint and body job, 1000HP engine, farmed out custom leather interior, and you end up with a $150K+ car that nobody wants and after you drive it for awhile you don't either.

My advice is to study the car, talk to everybody who had one or is building one and come up with a sound build plan. Do all, or damn near all the labor yourself, buy the big stuff once, gearbox, engine, air cond system, brakes, wheels and tires, and keep the paint cost down.

Special note here. The gearbox is the one thing to spend more that the basic level on. Especially if you think you want to give track work a try. MUST HAVE LIMMITED SLIP, I love Quaifes. Gear selection is also very important. Here's my general recommendation for a duel use car. These numbers are rounded off, close is good enough but a couple of tens difference is too much. 1st, 2.8 2nd 1.7, 3rd 1.35, 4th 1 to 1, and 5th 0.85, with a final drive of 3.5ish. Porsche G50xx gerbx's have a 3.44 that is perfect.

These will get you a 170MPH car with a rev limit of about 6500 with 26.5" tires. It will have a cruise speed/revs of about 80MPH@2800, You can drive it slow in traffic 10mph to 35mph in 1st and not sound like to are in a 4 banger, it will go onto the trailer without ruining the clutch, and generally leave a traffic light in civil manner. 2nd is good to about 70MPH without being on the rev limiter, and once in 3rd the car will pull like a demon through 4th and continue to accelerate to (fuck i'm going WAY TOOOOOOOOO FAST) in 5th.

You will find most tracks will require only 3rd and 4th with some occasional 5th to finish the long straight if there is one.

Both California Motor sports and Frans contact (is it Chris at gearworks?) seam to do a good job among others. Then there's the Ricardo that is fine as is, I would think, as well as the newer Porsche boxes that Frans uses for his Green #1.

Second special note. Paint. most people spend way too much on paint IMHO. Especially if you take it to the track. Thank God I did a Miracle paint job on my GTD GT40. The paint is trashed from the track. 125MPH pebbles will ding the paint and it does. If you do your own body prep you should be able to get it painted at a low cost paint shop for under $2k. This is especially true with the SLC because the body is very good and will fit up without much extra body work beyond surface prep for paint.

Sorry for being long winded. So here's the bottom line. A well researched build plan, Porsche G50 XX grbx and a 450HP ish LS3 (use stock cast headers), the new standard brakes, leave the leather out of the interior and use a nice looking Faux substitute along with the standard build interior pieces, and corvette aftermarket wheels and street summer HP tires. My best guess is you will right at $80K. Then do all the work yourself, get it painted one color at a buget paint shop, and keep the car for at least 5 years and you will be able to sell it for what you have spent. Free hobby..........whats better than that?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

If Tim took a loss is was due to him paying someone else to do the build and he lost labour costs.
Having had the car at RCR for track updates over the winter the buyer got a good deal and the costs of parts seemed to be about right for the sales price.

Tim's car, with the engine work, the interior, and the build should have sold for closer to $125K to $130K not $95K. But then Russo & Steele would not be my choice to sell any car.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

As I said the cost of "parts" was about right for the sales/purchase price in my opinion....

I think that auctions are a tough place to sell these types of cars period....I would not want to buy or sell at any of these venues ,unless of course you have a blue chip collectors car and it has true investment potential..

 

[JohnB]

Thanks, Howard, for your very straight-forward comments on building an SLC. Someday I hope to order one, but for the interim period I am trying to understand all that is needed for a street version with the possibility a little bit of track-day time. Until the time comes when I can afford one, I prefer to essentially lurk on the site and learn from others. Your information helped.

 

[Justin]

Thanks, Howard, for your very straight-forward comments on building an SLC. Someday I hope to order one, but for the interim period I am trying to understand all that is needed for a street version with the possibility a little bit of track-day time. Until the time comes when I can afford one, I prefer to essentially lurk on the site and learn from others. Your information helped.

My (eventual) build plan is the same. An LS based engine, 400-450 HP. Porsche 930 trans, and a straight forward build. I still have a few years of school left, but the wait will be worth it. The Razor is an awesome car, but I want to play with the big boys.

 

[Mesa]

I'm sure there will be a place at the table waiting for you Justin

 

[Jack]

Justin, that's pretty much what I'm doing (plus more tangental mod's that I can stand). Fortunately, I can do all of this stuff myself, just takes some time and effort (ask Rob). Modified LS-1 an a 930 LSD inverted. Hang in there, you won't be disappointed!
Only thing I would do differently would be to use an LS-3, but I already had the engine.