My deposit went in December 2012. Hoping it gets committed to production / built soon and shipped from SA to allow time for an install by May...my 50th :thumbsup:
- Jeffrey
Tracking a SPF
- Thread starter Boxerman
- Start date
My deposit went in December 2012. Hoping it gets committed to production / built soon and shipped from SA to allow time for an install by May...my 50th :thumbsup:
- Jeffrey
Sean,
I have to agree with Ron on this one. I wasn't going to vintage race so I wanted the most I could get and let the right foot control it. I also went back and forth on 302-331 and 351-427, I ended up with a 351-438 recommended by Olthoff. Dennis did the install and I received my car about 6 weeks ago. It is scary fast when you put the pedal to the floor in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and 4th just pin you in the seat and that is exactly what I wanted. One thing different on the throttle for me is the travel on the pedal seems like it goes on forever so it is real easy to roll onto the throttle, it seems like forever before it hits the floor.
I went with a dry sump setup with solid rollers and Jessel shaft mount rockers. Motor is good to 7000 rpm but I set the rev limit at 6500. After the first 500 miles, I adjusted the lifters in about 1 hour, real easy job if you don't mind pulling valve covers and turning over the motor. I will check again in another 500 miles just for peace of mind but I don't think I will see any adjustment needed. I have attached another dyno sheet for you to look at. Like Ron, I wanted a motor that wasn't pushed to its limit but still put +550 Hp and Tq.
Good luck, you will be happy either way you go.
I have to agree with Ron on this one. I wasn't going to vintage race so I wanted the most I could get and let the right foot control it. I also went back and forth on 302-331 and 351-427, I ended up with a 351-438 recommended by Olthoff. Dennis did the install and I received my car about 6 weeks ago. It is scary fast when you put the pedal to the floor in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and 4th just pin you in the seat and that is exactly what I wanted. One thing different on the throttle for me is the travel on the pedal seems like it goes on forever so it is real easy to roll onto the throttle, it seems like forever before it hits the floor.
I went with a dry sump setup with solid rollers and Jessel shaft mount rockers. Motor is good to 7000 rpm but I set the rev limit at 6500. After the first 500 miles, I adjusted the lifters in about 1 hour, real easy job if you don't mind pulling valve covers and turning over the motor. I will check again in another 500 miles just for peace of mind but I don't think I will see any adjustment needed. I have attached another dyno sheet for you to look at. Like Ron, I wanted a motor that wasn't pushed to its limit but still put +550 Hp and Tq.
Good luck, you will be happy either way you go.
Attachments
I WILL post my dyno sheet tonight, promise.
One thing about these cars that most of us already know, ownership is an emotional decision, not so much a logical one. The car needs to check those boxes that satisfy whatever itch needs scratching. And, that is different for all of us. Sometimes, it's pretending to live in the 60's, be a racecar driver or get public attention. Maybe it to have the fastest car on the block. Who knows? It can be anything.
In my case, I love the 60s-early 70s racers, and my two favorites are the GT40 and the 917. The GT40 won out for two reasons....
1. I wasn't convinced that I could get an accurate 917 registered in Kalifornia (mostly concerned about the height of the headlights).
2. The cost of getting 600 BHP out of a Porsche motor was beyond what I thought I wanted to spend. And, then there's fixing it when it breaks (and they will break).
That was the extent my rational mind imposed itself on an otherwise emotional decision. I didn't buy this thing as an investment, to take the kids to school in, or to save fuel...I bought it to scratch an itch.
Now, you just have to identify the itch.
One thing about these cars that most of us already know, ownership is an emotional decision, not so much a logical one. The car needs to check those boxes that satisfy whatever itch needs scratching. And, that is different for all of us. Sometimes, it's pretending to live in the 60's, be a racecar driver or get public attention. Maybe it to have the fastest car on the block. Who knows? It can be anything.
In my case, I love the 60s-early 70s racers, and my two favorites are the GT40 and the 917. The GT40 won out for two reasons....
1. I wasn't convinced that I could get an accurate 917 registered in Kalifornia (mostly concerned about the height of the headlights).
2. The cost of getting 600 BHP out of a Porsche motor was beyond what I thought I wanted to spend. And, then there's fixing it when it breaks (and they will break).
That was the extent my rational mind imposed itself on an otherwise emotional decision. I didn't buy this thing as an investment, to take the kids to school in, or to save fuel...I bought it to scratch an itch.
Now, you just have to identify the itch.
Potential lap times are one measure. I just drive aradical and pragna, to me these are something very different to drivign acar as we know it. The experience reinfoced my desire to get a Gt40. From the looks to the meotos to the whole thing, that is the dorection for me. But yeal potential lap times are alwas inetresting, because who wants to drive a car that handles like a 60's dog.
Ok. Finally.
The different lines represent changes following tuning the Webers.
393W running something like 11.9:1, AFR 205, full roller, solid lifter, wet sump, Weber 48s (rejetted with venturies 2 mm larger than stock), 110 Sunoco (needs 100 octane).
**Nevermind that it says FE on the bottom of the sheet, thats what this builder is known for, and typically dynos. He forgot to change it.
Ok. Finally.
The different lines represent changes following tuning the Webers.
393W running something like 11.9:1, AFR 205, full roller, solid lifter, wet sump, Weber 48s (rejetted with venturies 2 mm larger than stock), 110 Sunoco (needs 100 octane).
**Nevermind that it says FE on the bottom of the sheet, thats what this builder is known for, and typically dynos. He forgot to change it.
Nothing attached
I know I do. And I'm pretty sure most here do as well. Driving a car that mimics the feel of a 60's race car is kinda the whole point, "dog like" handling included...
You just wanna go fast get a used WC car or a Porsche cup car that's a couple seasons old.
Ok. Finally.
The different lines represent changes following tuning the Webers.
393W running something like 11.9:1, AFR 205, full roller, solid lifter, wet sump, Weber 48s (rejetted with venturies 2 mm larger than stock), 110 Sunoco (needs 100 octane).
**Nevermind that it says FE on the bottom of the sheet, thats what this builder is known for, and typically dynos. He forgot to change it.
Ron,
Ever thought about switching to E85? More timing, lower temps, cheaper fuel...what more could you ask for.
Rich,
Funny you should ask. Saturday I was talking to one of the gearheads at my office, and we discussed just that. I do like the idea, and it would certainly be much cheaper in the long run. The only real downside...I don't know if the gaskets etc in the webers will hold up.
Anyone out there have experience with alcohol and webers?
I can certainly deal with changing out fuel lines and the carbs will likely have to be re-jetted. And, while E85 isn't exactly available at every gas station, it's got to be easier to find than 100 or 110 octane race fuel.
So, yes, I have thought about switching. I may contact my builder and see what he thinks in a couple of weeks when I have some time off.
Ron
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Can't speak for webers but on EFI systems the fuel flow is quite a bit more to get the correct AFR. Haltech has a in line metering device which adjusts the pulse width of the injectors for amount of E85 added to the gasoline. E85 octane is much higher and will prevent detonation, I would suggest in your case a mixture of E85 and water and inject that just below the throttle plates on the carbs or even make a plate to go between the carbs and manifold and inject there under full load. I have a twin turbo V8 that I had detonation so I use a water injection system mixed 50 50 water E85 and it comes on at 4 psi boost, took the detonation out and drops intake temps which is extra HP.
Jack,
I dont have any personal experience w/ E85, but you're right on about the corrosive nature of alcohol. On the other hand, I'm told that E85 is a bit more forgiving in regards to AFR relative to gasoline, but thats not really my worry.
What concerns me more is getting enough fuel flow. I know the VW drag racers use weber 48s and run E85 successfully. But they're using truely huge jets, and I can't imagine how large my fuel system would have to be. I'd need to increase my flow by 30-35%...new pumps, lines, filters, probably reaming out the carb inlets etc. I've read that some go as far as machining out the fuel bowels to increase volume.
My only interest in E85 would be to avoid the expense and difficulty of keeping a supply of 110 at home to blend with my pump fuel. It's beginning to sound like all the mechinations involved in the conversion are not worth the headache. Those of you running FI likely have it much easier.
Sorry for the thread drift...I initially only meant to post my Dyno sheet for Boxerman....to let him see what could be done with a "streetable" 351W as he decides where to go with his potential build.
I dont have any personal experience w/ E85, but you're right on about the corrosive nature of alcohol. On the other hand, I'm told that E85 is a bit more forgiving in regards to AFR relative to gasoline, but thats not really my worry.
What concerns me more is getting enough fuel flow. I know the VW drag racers use weber 48s and run E85 successfully. But they're using truely huge jets, and I can't imagine how large my fuel system would have to be. I'd need to increase my flow by 30-35%...new pumps, lines, filters, probably reaming out the carb inlets etc. I've read that some go as far as machining out the fuel bowels to increase volume.
My only interest in E85 would be to avoid the expense and difficulty of keeping a supply of 110 at home to blend with my pump fuel. It's beginning to sound like all the mechinations involved in the conversion are not worth the headache. Those of you running FI likely have it much easier.
Sorry for the thread drift...I initially only meant to post my Dyno sheet for Boxerman....to let him see what could be done with a "streetable" 351W as he decides where to go with his potential build.
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Yes sorry about the thread drift this will be my last post on the issue.
Ron you wouldn't change the jets on the webers, just add a plastic or stainless steel tank then add the 50 50 mixture of E85 and water then inject it after the carburetors, you wouldn't change the fuel system at all just add to it. The high pressure pump used for the mixture would only come on when your throttle reaches a point you set (50-100%) and it would go off when not under hard loads such as cruising down the highway. Some say you will burn almost twice as much E85 as gasoline when you switch from pure gasoline to E85 so that means a few more stops at the gas pump, with the system as I explained your gas consumption should go down for the same amount of power made. Hope we are on the same page. :laugh:
Ron you wouldn't change the jets on the webers, just add a plastic or stainless steel tank then add the 50 50 mixture of E85 and water then inject it after the carburetors, you wouldn't change the fuel system at all just add to it. The high pressure pump used for the mixture would only come on when your throttle reaches a point you set (50-100%) and it would go off when not under hard loads such as cruising down the highway. Some say you will burn almost twice as much E85 as gasoline when you switch from pure gasoline to E85 so that means a few more stops at the gas pump, with the system as I explained your gas consumption should go down for the same amount of power made. Hope we are on the same page. :laugh:
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Jack,
If I understand, you're suggesting that I run lower octane gasoline, then inject E85/H2O when under load?
Initially, I think Rich was suggesting a full E85 conversion, and that's what I had considered. I realize now that you were suggesting adding an injection system in addition to my current system. An interesting proposal. If I were doing something like one of RCR's LMP style cars, it would be a fun little project. I've even thought about nitrous...but, in the end, I've tried to keep my build somewhat original looking (although I am using a 351 block).
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Ron PM sent, sorry once again guys.
Ron I was inferring a switch to E85. Common rule of thumb is the fuel system would need to supply about 30% more fuel. Teflon lined hose and viton seals to put up with the corrosive E85. Not sure what size jets you would need tho. My M3 is running a Holley EFI which essentially doesn't care what you feed it. It keeps a set AFR. When I add E85 I switch programs which bumps timing accordingly for an extra 30 rwhp.
BTW,
Public E85 Ethanol stations and prices in Sacramento, CA
BTW,
Public E85 Ethanol stations and prices in Sacramento, CA
That seems like a lot of "constant" effort, having to pull the heads, set valve lash, etc...?
My 408w has been set it and forget it - 490RWhp on 91 pump gas with a Holley 4150 and hydraulic roller.
If I were going to put up with the headache of the maintenance of solid roller and havin to store race fuel in my garage I'd want something crazy stupid, like 800-900hp. :shrug:
Alex,
As I imagine you know, it's always wise to check the torq on your heads on a newly rebilt motor...regardless of your lifters (don't need to pull the heads to do that.... which would be counter productive). I don't plan on checking the valves again for several thousand miles, unless I hit the track. But yes, there is a bit more to keep tabs on if running solid lifters.
Again, part of this build was to be able to wind the motor up. I can go to 7400K rpm, if I'd like...I'd suggest not doing that with hydraulic lifters. I purposely had the motor built with stout internals...and there is plenty more to be had if I were to flow the heads and open up the webers.
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