#2228 delivered but not on the road
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Steve Briscoe
Lifetime Supporter
1) Working on cars can be fun. It's much more enjoyable if the starting point is what has been promised. If the starting point is a mismatch, it calls into question the credibility of many other issues involving the car.
2) People have an obligation to deliver as promised and support the customer if issues arise. Doesn't matter if it's a car or a defective pair of underwear from Wal-Mart. It's all the same. Give people enough time and they will show you who they really are.
3) I look forward to working on my car when I can get the time. I'm banking on folks here on the forum giving a pointer or two.
My two cents-
Steve
2) People have an obligation to deliver as promised and support the customer if issues arise. Doesn't matter if it's a car or a defective pair of underwear from Wal-Mart. It's all the same. Give people enough time and they will show you who they really are.
3) I look forward to working on my car when I can get the time. I'm banking on folks here on the forum giving a pointer or two.
My two cents-
Steve
Thomas Hertzler
Lifetime Supporter
Re: #2228 delivered but not on the road (Update)
The dealer picked the car up two weeks ago (again). I took delivery almost four weeks ago and have yet to drive one trouble-free mile in it. It's been two weeks now since the car was last hauled into the shop. There are still some chassis issues that haven't been fixed but the biggest problem is the engine running rough and hot and stalling.
When this is over and the car is in a presentable condition, it will most likely go up for sale. I've had it.
The dealer picked the car up two weeks ago (again). I took delivery almost four weeks ago and have yet to drive one trouble-free mile in it. It's been two weeks now since the car was last hauled into the shop. There are still some chassis issues that haven't been fixed but the biggest problem is the engine running rough and hot and stalling.
When this is over and the car is in a presentable condition, it will most likely go up for sale. I've had it.
Thomas
I'm sorry to hear of your continuing dilemma. I am curious however, how was Lance Stander's response to your complaints?
I'm sorry to hear of your continuing dilemma. I am curious however, how was Lance Stander's response to your complaints?
Re: #2228 delivered but not on the road (Update)
Thomas,
Just curious, did your installer keep the original radiator fans? The very first thing Dennis Olthoff did was to throw my factory fans in the dumpster and install better units. He also trimmed away the inner flange return of fiberglass down inside the "nostrils" to maximize air flow through the radiator. My car has never (knock wood) run hot, even in 90 degree heat with the AC on.
Thomas,
Just curious, did your installer keep the original radiator fans? The very first thing Dennis Olthoff did was to throw my factory fans in the dumpster and install better units. He also trimmed away the inner flange return of fiberglass down inside the "nostrils" to maximize air flow through the radiator. My car has never (knock wood) run hot, even in 90 degree heat with the AC on.
I think I can speak for all on this forum that we share your disappointment and frustration. Most certainly, your dealer is morally and ethically obligated to provide you with a reasonably driveable product, which he has yet to do. Before you sacrifice your expensive and long-awaited-for car, I would hold the dealer's "feet to the fire," to the extent of threatening and pursuing litigation if that what it takes before you pass it on to someone else. Apparantly your SPF is experiencing more than typical "teething problems, " but that in no way absolves the dealer from getting it fully up and running for you.
I have a question for the SPF guys, most of you used the Roush motor and seem to have a squeaking belt issue (I am thinking you have the serpentine belt system).
I put a 427IR in a CAV and had the same problem, the belt has to be reeeaaally tight to get traction on those polished pulleys. The alternator pulley is too small and there is not enough surface area for the belt to grip.
It might help to remove the pulleys and bead blast the grooves.
Dave
I put a 427IR in a CAV and had the same problem, the belt has to be reeeaaally tight to get traction on those polished pulleys. The alternator pulley is too small and there is not enough surface area for the belt to grip.
It might help to remove the pulleys and bead blast the grooves.
Dave
mine squeaks just during startup and then quiets down..
Speaking of the law, the dealer is not only "morally and ethically obligated" as you say, he's also legally obligated. Products sold commercially by those "dealing in the goods" come with a) a warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, and b) a warranty of merchantability. This applies regardless of any other written warranty issued (or not) by the dealer itself. a) and b) are imposed by the law, specifically, the laws of sales and secured transactions, both of which are fairly uniform across all of the 50 states. Basically, a) and b) mean, when read together, that if you sell a product commercially, the product has to work and operate as intended for some reasonable amount of time. For example, a ball point pen will obviously be expected to work in a certain way for a certain reasonable amount of time. Similarly, a car, even a specially designed and built car, will be expected to be functional and usable in the manner that such a car normally is, and, for a reasonable amount of time (which will obviously be longer than a pen).
Sure, there's lots of room to interprete how these two law-based warranties are to be applied in any one factual setting (what's a reasonable expected life span of X product), however, the main point is that a dealer can't just say there's no dealer-provided warranty and thus there's no recourse for the buyer. There is recourse, and a court will impose it if you pay a decent lawyer to make the appropriate warranty arguments.
In this situation, having lawyers (to impose the law) is a good thing!
Tom:
Cliff seems to have a pretty good handle on the legalities of your purchase. I would take it to heart and go the litigation route if you absolutely have to; it probably won't cost much more than the hit you will take unloading your --- so far, dissapointing --- purchased item.
Good luck.
Cliff seems to have a pretty good handle on the legalities of your purchase. I would take it to heart and go the litigation route if you absolutely have to; it probably won't cost much more than the hit you will take unloading your --- so far, dissapointing --- purchased item.
Good luck.
This poses an interesting problem, due to the nature of the product. For you are not buying a car. You are buying an uncompleted *kit*, then paying somebody else to build a motor, and then a third party to assemble it into a cohesive package. When it doesn't work the way it's supposed to, who is responsible?
If the car doesn't run properly, that's not the fault of the guy who sold you the kit, it's an engine problem. The engine installer can say it's not his fault, it's an engine problem. And the engine builder can say it's not his fault, it's an installer problem. So lots of finger pointing and zero accountability.
This is another excellent reason *not* to screw around with aftermarket fuel injection initially. It's best to get the car running with a carburetor (like Kirby Schrader did); once you've worked the rest of the bugs out, *then* you can modify it to the point of immobility with fuel injection (like Kirby Scrader did :laugh
.
If the car doesn't run properly, that's not the fault of the guy who sold you the kit, it's an engine problem. The engine installer can say it's not his fault, it's an engine problem. And the engine builder can say it's not his fault, it's an installer problem. So lots of finger pointing and zero accountability.
This is another excellent reason *not* to screw around with aftermarket fuel injection initially. It's best to get the car running with a carburetor (like Kirby Schrader did); once you've worked the rest of the bugs out, *then* you can modify it to the point of immobility with fuel injection (like Kirby Scrader did :laugh
.
Mike,
Now that was cruel... and you even misspelled my name!
:huh:
Extenuating circumstances, for sure, in my case. How many people would suspect a bad EFI wiring harness when trying to troubleshoot problems with it? It literally took me months to find the issue. Worse yet, it was intermittent, which are the worst kinds of electrical issues to solve.
Anyway, it _does_ run and is not immobile. It is driveable. It goes like stink. But I do agree with you on the finger pointing. It's a difficult issue, for sure.
Regards,
Kirby
Now that was cruel... and you even misspelled my name!
:huh:
Extenuating circumstances, for sure, in my case. How many people would suspect a bad EFI wiring harness when trying to troubleshoot problems with it? It literally took me months to find the issue. Worse yet, it was intermittent, which are the worst kinds of electrical issues to solve.
Anyway, it _does_ run and is not immobile. It is driveable. It goes like stink. But I do agree with you on the finger pointing. It's a difficult issue, for sure.
Regards,
Kirby
This is another excellent reason *not* to screw around with aftermarket fuel injection initially. It's best to get the car running with a carburetor (like Kirby Schrader did); once you've worked the rest of the bugs out, *then* you can modify it to the point of immobility with fuel injection (like Kirby Scrader did :laugh
>>>Only once though--it was a typo. :dizzy:
>>>Very true--and it just proves my point. When starting off with a complete unknown, it's best to keep the drivetrain part stone-axe simple, get that all dialed in, and then get 'creative' as desired with the engine.
Oh--I thought it *did* run but then something else went wrong? You're listed as a 'maybe' for the upcoming dyno day because of fuel injection issues? Or have you resolved them? I hope so! :thumbsup:
Ahh... but that's a secret. I don't want to air all my dirty laundry until I figure out what the problem is!
:embarassed:
:embarassed:
Yeah, I'd say the problem is that your carburetor is in a box, and your fuel injection is on the motor, and not the other way around! :laugh:
Seriously, I wish you the best of luck and hope you can get it resolved in time to boil the dyno! :thumbsup:
Mike points out a very important issue. Buying one of these cars is so vastly different from purchasing a factory-production car with a rock-solid warranty that most purchasers are oblivious to the potential problems. Everything, I think, comes down to the integrity of the SPF dealer which, unless you do your homework, is probably a complete unknown at the time of purchase. My view is that your dealer should provide you with a reasonable product as per the given legalities outlined in Cliffbeer2's posting above. (I may be being naive, but we'll continue on.) But, as Mike pointed out, the ultimate responsibilities can get nebulous when problems arise. Not having gotten into the nitty-gritty of it with my local dealer (Dynamic MotorSports), my impression has been that they will insure that your desires for the engine and driveline will be met by the installer (in this case, Replicar Engines & Drivelines, a separate entity but located in the same commercial building (along with other businesses) whose business appears to overwhelmingly be doing work on SPF Mark IIIs', Cobra Daytona Coupes and GT40's for Dynamic MotorSports, but also does sports car restorations.). If there's problems with the "roller" the dealer should resolve them himself, with the distributor or High-Tech Auto; whatever it takes. If there are problems with the engine or driveline then the installer would/should be obligated to deal with those issues with the manufacturer/distributor, and the SPF dealer should require that they do that. If there's problems with the installation, the dealer should require the installer to straighten them out. Like I said, I may be being naive, but this is what I would/will do:
1. At the point that my dealer knows that I am super-serious about purchasing a SPF GT40, I would require of him a reference list of his previous SPF GT40 purchasers. (Before you do this, casually ask him how many of these he has sold; then you will know how many references he should be providing you.) Names and phone numbers are all that you need, and is no significant invasion of anybody's privacy. If your dealer balks at this, then it's a "red flag" that he has a significant number of unhappy SPF GT40 customers. Something you need to know.
2. Also at this point, I would require a copy of the sales contract and hard copies of all warranty information for the "roller" for examination at my leisure; a dealer with integrity should have no problem with this. If he can provide, through his installer, warranties on your desired engine and driveline, I would require copies of these too. If he doesn't have available to him the latter, I would get them off the manufacturer's or distributor's website, so you know where you stand if problems arise.
3. Beyond the written documentation in 2. above I would, in the strongest possible terms, get a strong verbal committment from the dealer as to what he will or won't do in regards to providing you with a quality, trouble-free product upon receipt and final payment (from him, not the installer or the engine and driveline distributor or manufacturer.) It should be clearly understood that there will be no buck-passing at this point; that you will hold him fully responsible for providing you with the product that you expect. Much better would be to bring an attorney with you, get a very clear verbal committment from the dealer as to what he will provide for you, have it written up and have him sign it. My experience is that even honest and legitimate dealers can get balky at this point, but the more you can nail down what you expect, the better.
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