American Transaxles...and cheapskates

[Roark_John]

The good news is, I am hard at work on SEVERAL ideas for affordable transaxle alternatives.

The bad news is, for some reason otherwise rational people want a custom transaxle for the same price as a USED transmission. I see people on various forums, for various build types, that have no problem buying a new transmission and rearend assemblies for their projects. So why is it so difficult to get people to understand REALITY?

A transaxle is a combination unit, with the axle assembly integrated into the casing of the transmission. So it is essentially TWO units in ONE. People who build a Cobra will spend $3000 on a transmission and another $1500-2000 for a rear axle. These components are spread among ALOT of suppliers/vendors and have a huge base to work from. The options run the gamut. What this means is, even for these specialty aftermarket parts, there is a very large market...mass production means savings. Each part costs less to manufacture than small runs.

I have the means to build an affordable, dependable transaxle utilizing existing transmission and ring & pinion components. These units are ALL NEW designs, using existing components. That means all new castings. However, even if I were to suddenly be the ONLY supplier of transaxles to ALL kit builders, I would only be building about 500 transaxles a year. Not even sure that would be every year.

Where am I going with this? I want people to stop being cheapskates and trying to bully a manufacturer into providing them with quality products at WalMart prices. If you can't afford to spend the coin on your project car, you shouldn't be building it! These are not necessities, after all.

I don't mean to come at people sideways, but I feel it is necessary to speak to adults as the adults they are. Honestly. No more whining, none of us are helpless children. Whining gets no one anywhere and accomplishes nothing, but making some of us grit our teeth.

I intend to design and manufacture these units correctly. That is going to cost me money on the front end. I intend to recoup that money on the back end, ie when I have completed units for sale. I also want to keep these units affordable, while turning a fair profit.

What this means is, if spending at least 100-150% of the separate component costs of a manual transmission and rear axle assembly is outside of your budget for a CUSTOM transaxle unit, have you budgeted realistically AND is reliability versus a reconditioned "low-buck" Audi unit (that may have to be rebuilt and/or replaced) not important to your custom crafted replica/kit?

 

[Jack]

To further the above post, check some prices on the Ricardo, G50's, etc. ANY RELIABLE transaxle tailored for our market at a competive price (using "off the shelf" internals would be the cat's behind!

 

[Howard Jones]

I think I have said many times that $20K spent on the power train with with about 25-30% on the engine would be a BASELINE number for SERIOUS super-car class high performance mid engine 2500 lb project. I'm thinking of a 450HP 351 SBF or Chevy and a properly built Porsche that includes the good parts LSD, and suitable V8 gears.

This is my idea of a baseline. Of course you can pull a 5.0 from a old mustang and put a Audi behind it for a LOT less but that's just not what I would be going for.

The gearbox IS the car in a mid engine layout. It is very hard to go back and do it over the second time......and much more costly. I am building my SLC around the gearbox and that is how I believe it should be done.

Here's what I would think is the right way to go for a custom transaxle.

1. 5 speed that weights at or less than a ZF with comparable accessory component weights and input shaft below the output shaft centerlines like a "flipped" Porsche, ZF, others.
2. choice of gears ratios
3. choice of R&P final ratio
4. internal oil pump and fittings standard
5. interchangeable bell housings. Ford, Chevy, LS-X at least
6. flywheel and clutch set to match engine
7. starter to match 6.
8. shifter kit
9. about $20K USD for the complete setup

And that might be too cheap!

 

[Randy V]

The bad news is, for some reason otherwise rational people want a custom transaxle for the same price as a USED transmission. I see people on various forums, for various build types, that have no problem buying a new transmission and rearend assemblies for their projects. So why is it so difficult to get people to understand REALITY? ............

Ahem...

It seems to me that you are actually doing more to encourage the "cheapskates" with posts like you've been making lauding the plausibility of creating a low-buck super-strong transaxle from components out of various production transmissions and axles...

From the post here:

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...all-most-american-transaxle-2.html#post275771

I just thought people might be interested to know that I have taken up this cause. I originally joined this group specifically because it has the most factual information as to transaxles of ANY that I have come across on the internet. In fact if anyone cares to research it, at one time I was planning on designing a transaxle based on commonly available components. This was just the push I needed to re-engage myself with the endeavor.

I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but I have 3 transaxles on the drawing boards, so to speak.

First is a "low-bucks" transaxle utilizing T5 internals and a Dana 44 differential. Second is a "medium-bucks" transaxle utilitzing T56 internals and a Dana 60 differential. Third is a "big-bucks" transaxle utilizing Richmond 5 & 6 speed internals and a 10" quick-change ring & pinion.

All of these should still be stronger than the alternatives...I am placing the T5 based transaxle between an Audi/Cayman box and a flipped 996 box...with a price tag (new components only) TOPPING at around $5500...and the ability to have this unit serviced locally by any competent transmission shop. The T56 based transaxle is between a G50/52 and G50/50 in strength and should come to market TOPPING around $7500...again all new components, with service at the local level. The "big daddy" gearbox will be available around $10,000 (built to the hilt) and will be comparable in durability to the Ricardo GT gearbox.

I am fortunate to have access to quality machining facilities with excess capacity, thanks to the crummy economy, and my prior career as a machinist will serve me well in regards to economical fixturing and production processes. I also have access to several local foundries and heat-treat facilities for the castings.

If anyone has any questions regarding these planned offerings, please feel free to ask me.

In due course, as I get closer to actual physical products, I will be needing beta testers, and of course, will become a proud paying sponsor of this sight.

So - What's it gonna be... ???

If it weren't for people looking for a cheaper alternative for a transaxle - there'd be no reason for you or anyone else to build one from spare parts out of other cars other than to just have fun with the exercise.

There are others that have created transaxles that have experienced limited success - others that may well be the next best thing to sliced bread are on the drawing boards right now.

Meanwhile - there are manufacturers of transaxles that are very substantial in terms of strength and reliability.
They're not cheap, but if they were - well - we wouldn't be having threads such as this one now - would we?

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

This is an extremely small market- kind of the definition of a low-volume specialty market. There are also at least TWO products already available that do well for this market- the RBT units and the ZFQ marketed by Chris Melia and Quaife. And I am sure there are others that I don't even know about. How many transaxles can be sold into this market in a year, even if you count Panteras, GT40s, all the rebuilds of cars which had them originally? there just aren't that many. Hundreds at most- not thousands.

My car has a NOS BMW M1 spare which I spent quite a bit of money to have converted. It has yet to be finally tested. I estimate that I have 10-12K in that unit, but the ZFQ was not available ten years ago when I started all this, and RBT was nowhere near its' present capacity for work. Along the way, I have found that there are a number of shops which specialize in these transaxles and have worked on them for years. They have an established presence in the market. Unless you can find a way to combine the internals of a Tremec TKO-600, for example, and a LS rear axle unit of similar robustness all into a case that looks and fits like a ZF or its' homologue, I think you're going to have a difficult time gaining a foothold in the marketplace. And when you do, it's going to take you a long time to even earn your investment back. Good luck.

 

[Jack]

Howard has a good point. $20K baseline is not unreasonable, perhaps a tad low by the time it's all said and done. I am an exception only because I had a lot of "free" assistance. 430HP LS1 with a 930 LSD gearbox for less than $15K. This includes modified front dress, oil cooler, filter & pump for the gearbox and milled bracket & slave cylinder for the clutch. An oil cooler for the engine and all associated fittings and Aeroquip hoses. So, under the right circumstances it can be done.

 

[Leon]

IMHO, I don't think you can combine "Transaxle and Cheap" is the same sentence. I for one am building my trans for myself only, IF !!! it turns out to work well that will be great and the journey will be worth it. The main reasons I went this track was to see if I can do it and I had the bits I wanted to use already avalible so my out lay is low to start. Again IF it turns good, I would build others for guys who wanted them, but have NO intensions of trying to build and sell in any volume. I don't believe the market is big enough to recoup the out lay needed. I,m simply doing it for the challenge as I think most of the guys attempting this on here are.
Cheers leonmac.

 

[Roark_John]

Randy...

I realize that it may seem contradictory, but I believe all contradictions arise from a premise, not from facts.

The facts are that a "low-bucks" transaxle utilizing Dana 44 differential components and aftermarket T5 shafts & gears would cost about the same as a beefed up Audi unit and actually be stronger. No contradiction there. As this is still at the lower end of the spectrum (more show than go) this will still be a fine unit for those building "cruiser" GT40s, Fiero-Lambos, etc.

For those want a more track oriented or track capable car, the planned "medium-bucks" unit, comprised of Dana 60 and T56/T6060 internals would cost about the same as a flipped & reversed Porsche unit.

For those wanting a stout, fully race capable (and still streetable) transaxle, the planned "big-bucks" unit, utilizing QC ring & pinion and Jerico/Richmond internals will be fully capable of matching and outliving a Ricardo GT unit, Xtrac unit or Mendeola unit.

As I know that not everyone has the same budget, I have set to work on offering a unit suitable for most tastes. A Goldilocks menu, perhaps?

My first goal is to bring the "medium-bucks" unit to market. When the cash-flow from this transaxle starts to pay back investment costs, I will introduce other units.

This is firstmost, an exercise in feasability. I never intended to become the be-all, end-all transaxle supplier. These products I consider to be supplementary in achieving my overall business goals.

The market is there, and has been for quite some time. It astounds me that manufacturers have ignored the demand for so long. How many dune-car/sandrails are there? And yet there is no less than a half-dozen suitable units for these "toys", probably more! I am attempting to address this market. Success for this venture would mean breaking even!

Ahem...
It seems to me that you are actually doing more to encourage the "cheapskates" with posts like you've been making lauding the plausibility of creating a low-buck super-strong transaxle from components out of various production transmissions and axles...

From the post here:
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...all-most-american-transaxle-2.html#post275771

So - What's it gonna be... ???
If it weren't for people looking for a cheaper alternative for a transaxle - there'd be no reason for you or anyone else to build one from spare parts out of other cars other than to just have fun with the exercise.
There are others that have created transaxles that have experienced limited success - others that may well be the next best thing to sliced bread are on the drawing boards right now.
Meanwhile - there are manufacturers of transaxles that are very substantial in terms of strength and reliability.
They're not cheap, but if they were - well - we wouldn't be having threads such as this one now - would we?

 

[Roark_John]

I daresay, that some of you are quite generous in suggesting the prices you have!

I would like to offer these units at or around the price-point of the types of engines being used in various vehicles.

For example, for use behind an LS7, or built LS3, I would like to have a suitable transaxle for around $15,000...about the same price as the engine. I don't mean a marginal unit either, but a transaxle fully capable of handling the horsepower/torque of these engines.

 

[David Sturch]

These guys have been building what most of us are using in one form or another. If you are using a new engine i'm sure they could do the bell housing to fit.
Dave
GETRAG Corporate Group - Manual transmissions (MTs)

 

[PhillipM]

How many dune-car/sandrails are there? And yet there is no less than a half-dozen suitable units for these "toys"

Tens of thousands, it's not exactly a small market...

 

[DeLynn]

IT can be done,,, IT is not Cheep....
IF you look Close under the back of the Lambo You will SEE it...

 

[Randy V]

Incredible DeLynn - Please tell us more about that gearbox...

 

[DeLynn]

It was many moons ago,, 1990-1995

The Goal was to build and market a transaxle with off the shelf parts.
I thought it would be best to have the offest from crank to drive as close as possible. I used the transmission and case from the Nash/Richmond.. Installed a new tailhousing on the back of the transmission,, with room for QC gears..
The diff housing was also made to fit on the front of the transmission case..
I side it was a modified for 8" ring gear,, installed on a Dan Press Gold track carrier.
I made new input gear,, it would pass all the way thu the diff housing into the clutch..
The bell housing side was made to fit a Tilton 2 piece housing,, by leaving off the transmission adapter..
I had alot of hair when I started.... Lost alot of hair,, gained alot of knowledge
What more can I tell you..

 

[Roark_John]

You can tell us alot

You have been to the mountaintop my friend. I am fascinated and smitten with your design. Alas, I was still in high school when you stopped making the QC850, otherwise I would have purchased one by now!

It was many moons ago,, 1990-1995

The Goal was to build and market a transaxle with off the shelf parts.
I thought it would be best to have the offest from crank to drive as close as possible. I used the transmission and case from the Nash/Richmond.. Installed a new tailhousing on the back of the transmission,, with room for QC gears..
The diff housing was also made to fit on the front of the transmission case..
I side it was a modified for 8" ring gear,, installed on a Dan Press Gold track carrier.
I made new input gear,, it would pass all the way thu the diff housing into the clutch..
The bell housing side was made to fit a Tilton 2 piece housing,, by leaving off the transmission adapter..
I had alot of hair when I started.... Lost alot of hair,, gained alot of knowledge
What more can I tell you..

 

[Jay Adams]

It was many moons ago,, 1990-1995

The Goal was to build and market a transaxle with off the shelf parts.
I thought it would be best to have the offest from crank to drive as close as possible. I used the transmission and case from the Nash/Richmond.. Installed a new tailhousing on the back of the transmission,, with room for QC gears..
The diff housing was also made to fit on the front of the transmission case..
I side it was a modified for 8" ring gear,, installed on a Dan Press Gold track carrier.
I made new input gear,, it would pass all the way thu the diff housing into the clutch..
The bell housing side was made to fit a Tilton 2 piece housing,, by leaving off the transmission adapter..
I had alot of hair when I started.... Lost alot of hair,, gained alot of knowledge
What more can I tell you..

That is way cool. U.S.A. made
Was the ring & pinion based on a spiral bevel or a hypoid gear?
How long was the gearbox tip to tail?
This is where we had are problem our gearbox was to long so we had to re- engineer it for the market it was intended.
Quote-"I had alot of hair when I started.... Lost alot of hair,, gained alot of knowledge"
I can relate and feel for you we have been through this as well.
Nice job.

 

[DeLynn]

The 850QC was to long for a GT40.. If it had not been,,
I would most likely buid that box today..
Here is the PDF of the lay out..
It had a 8" hypoid gear set... cut on a Ford 8" ring gear..
Mounted on a 9" carrier..

View attachment 850QC Dims.pdf

I would love to build a new unit based on what the new parts on the market... And it will fit into a GT40..

 

[Roark_John]

So are you driving the pinion through a hollowed-out cluster shaft? And how exactly did you attach the pinion to the transfer shaft?

Which parts would YOU use in an updated 850QC Delynn? I have no desire to compete, though I wouldn't mind collaborating if you were so inclined. This has been my goal all along...an American transaxle using American sourced components.

The 850QC was to long for a GT40.. If it had not been,,
I would most likely buid that box today..
Here is the PDF of the lay out..
It had a 8" hypoid gear set... cut on a Ford 8" ring gear..
Mounted on a 9" carrier..

View attachment 45271

I would love to build a new unit based on what the new parts on the market... And it will fit into a GT40..

 

[DeLynn]

Keep in mind, when I made the 850QC,
Richmond only made the street 5 spd... NOW they have good OD gear sets.. SO I would use the Richmond gear sets, The same R&P but Diff Ratio... and DROP the QG gear set.. This will make it short enough to fit in a GT40..24.75" plus bellhousing..
so it you use a ZF bellhousing Total is 29.25" Tilton bellhousing 30.10"
I belive, the size of unit, cost me sales...

The new lay out would keep the CL of the Crank and Drive flanges would remain 1.75".. Block to the CL of drive flanges, about 10.5"..
The big change is in the rear.... much shorter..

 

[Roark_John]

Do you have any units or parts available still?

Keep in mind, when I made the 850QC,
Richmond only made the street 5 spd... NOW they have good OD gear sets.. SO I would use the Richmond gear sets, The same R&P but Diff Ratio... and DROP the QG gear set.. This will make it short enough to fit in a GT40..24.75" plus bellhousing..
so it you use a ZF bellhousing Total is 29.25" Tilton bellhousing 30.10"
I belive, the size of unit, cost me sales...

The new lay out would keep the CL of the Crank and Drive flanges would remain 1.75".. Block to the CL of drive flanges, about 10.5"..
The big change is in the rear.... much shorter..