Anti-Lock Brakes
- Thread starter rstallbaum
- Start date
I would have seen it more about increases in tyre technology than engines. Greater brake torques can achieved with modern tire advances so the ability to press that brake pedal even harder for stopping is great! But of course you need to start taking your foot off when you get slower before you start locking up and flat-spotting your tires. I would think a good ABS system would have merit. You would want to get one though that is not associated with the trans or engine control unit or you may have issues getting it going. Id probably get the most recent one I could find that operates as a separate system. Mind you, how about one that has stability control in it as well, you know, the ones that apply brake pressure to an individual wheel when you're sideways!
Rob
Lifetime Supporter
Hi Rick,
Yep...I've thought a lot about it. Planning on adapting one to my next RCR40 build. It will be a pre-CAN system, so as Bruce mentioned, it will be a stand alone.
Bruce,
Using and ESP system isn't very feasible, as you would need to have to be able to tap into the software and tune the needed parameters. Additionally, you would need to set up your own virtual CAN bus with all needed info. i.e veh speed, throttle position, yaw rate, steering angle etc etc. Would be a cool project, but not terribly feasible.
Yep...I've thought a lot about it. Planning on adapting one to my next RCR40 build. It will be a pre-CAN system, so as Bruce mentioned, it will be a stand alone.
Bruce,
Using and ESP system isn't very feasible, as you would need to have to be able to tap into the software and tune the needed parameters. Additionally, you would need to set up your own virtual CAN bus with all needed info. i.e veh speed, throttle position, yaw rate, steering angle etc etc. Would be a cool project, but not terribly feasible.
Rob
Lifetime Supporter
Hi Rick,
CAN = Controller Area Network. It is essentially a communication network or Highway for which vehicle information is published. Then any other system that needs that information pulls the needed messaged (info) from the public network. I am proud to say it was invented and patented here at Bosch back in the 80s.
So, a pre-can system (J1850 comm. proto) would be for a car that did not yet have a BUS-CAN infrastructure. It was essentially a stand alone ABS system. Note: This simply is not feasible with a car that has ESP for the reasons mentioned below, in that the ESP needs sensor input from many areas.
CAN = Controller Area Network. It is essentially a communication network or Highway for which vehicle information is published. Then any other system that needs that information pulls the needed messaged (info) from the public network. I am proud to say it was invented and patented here at Bosch back in the 80s.
So, a pre-can system (J1850 comm. proto) would be for a car that did not yet have a BUS-CAN infrastructure. It was essentially a stand alone ABS system. Note: This simply is not feasible with a car that has ESP for the reasons mentioned below, in that the ESP needs sensor input from many areas.
Bob
What intel do you have as far as stand alone ABS units. The most recent I have is from a '95 to '97 Mustang, but these units have not proven real reliable when used in an on track environment.
Ford issued a unit to Grand AM Cup teams that is stand alone, but I was unsuccessful in my attempts to get my hands on one.
Subscribing to this thread......
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
It's been done in the UK on a GTD. The vehicle used a system donated from a Sierra Cosworth 4x4 as it was basically stand alone and could be hooked up to the driveshaft hub rings (late granada hubs?).
It also retained the hydraulic accumulator from the Cossie so no servos were required either. (Cossie is turbo, so little vacuum for brakes).
Can't remember who had it and it was a few years back.
It also retained the hydraulic accumulator from the Cossie so no servos were required either. (Cossie is turbo, so little vacuum for brakes).
Can't remember who had it and it was a few years back.
Greetings all....Any potential of system manufacturer and model numbers? I have future interest in doing ABS for two vehicles...The first is my aging C5 corvette, a 1998..It has ABS, thankfully not ESP/Active Handling, bad by whatever name it goes by IN my humble opinion. The factory GM ABS iseems to be tied to all sorts of other electronic crap besides the brakes...Not as complicated as the setup that came later with computer control ESP/A-H that does brake application all on its own...I am at the point in time where the electrics are beginning to fail with regularity and at great expense...It has recently had a new engine/transmission computer, HVAC controls have rebuilt 3 times and are failing again. lighting circuits are developing issues, you name it, the crap GM electrics are going out all over the car. It is a nice GT car chassis with good looks and decent engine powertrain but crippled by needlessly complex and poor reliability electrics. At some point I will want to strip the car of its electrical system and start over with circuit breaker switches and aircraft grade wire, an easy to program engine management computer and everything else either on manual switches or pull cables...as in the heat/air duct valves. When this happens I would like to preserve some sort of ABS system..the wheel bearings have hall effect sensors built in, so it's not an issue from that end if the system can read them.....Second application is that when the economy gets rolling again, we want to build an RCR, likely a P4. I would LOVE it if we [Fran?] can mod the body into the CanAm spyder varient, loosing the 'basket handle' and high windows. The other potential would be one of his Lola T70 spyders...Either way, those are made with GM bearing assy, C4 Vette with no wheel speed sensors, but the C5 has the same dimensions and has the sensors, thus opening to door to possibilities....I want to start figuring out what I am going to need to keep my darn Corvette running as the crap GM electrics fail at ever escalating cost of repair...Evething I learn about a stand alone ABS system will directly apply to C5 Vette modification application and also crossover to the future project car...
Jennifer
Jennifer
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ABS is one of the things I would definitely not do if my GT40 were to be built again.
It has been disabled since the first week I took possession of my car. A complete waste of time and money.
Maybe I could be convinced that a really well set up system (eg GT3) might be worthwhile but the adapted system in my car (from an Australian Ford Falcon) is crap.
I have tried playing with ABS on a couple of very different track oriented cars and have given up on it. The time and effort to get it to the point that it would work to my advantage is better spent elsewhere IMO. A shame because it really should be very effective.
(It works great on those GT3s though.)
Tim.
It has been disabled since the first week I took possession of my car. A complete waste of time and money.
Maybe I could be convinced that a really well set up system (eg GT3) might be worthwhile but the adapted system in my car (from an Australian Ford Falcon) is crap.
I have tried playing with ABS on a couple of very different track oriented cars and have given up on it. The time and effort to get it to the point that it would work to my advantage is better spent elsewhere IMO. A shame because it really should be very effective.
(It works great on those GT3s though.)
Tim.
Jenn,
the C4 front wheel bearings do have a tone wheel and the rears are easy to set up for one...the C5 bearings are NOT the same bolt mount spacing or offset....
Anything is possible when it comes to bodies but it is a case of time and money...custom takes both....
If an OEM with the resources of GM cannot get it to work the way you want then I highly doubt that an affordable stand alone system would either...
There are aftermarket units available that do ABS and traction control...Racelogic for instance ..and as you say...why not find one you like, install it on your C5 and report back on your findings..both on the road and in competition?....
I personally would not want ABS on a vintage style car.......I would rather have the visceral and raw appeal of the 60's....now the SL-C is a different animal....
the C4 front wheel bearings do have a tone wheel and the rears are easy to set up for one...the C5 bearings are NOT the same bolt mount spacing or offset....
Anything is possible when it comes to bodies but it is a case of time and money...custom takes both....
If an OEM with the resources of GM cannot get it to work the way you want then I highly doubt that an affordable stand alone system would either...
There are aftermarket units available that do ABS and traction control...Racelogic for instance ..and as you say...why not find one you like, install it on your C5 and report back on your findings..both on the road and in competition?....
I personally would not want ABS on a vintage style car.......I would rather have the visceral and raw appeal of the 60's....now the SL-C is a different animal....
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The active handling and ABS on the 2008 Z06 Corvette is more highly refined than any other performance car I've driven... I've not a clue how entangled it is with other systems in the car.
A couple of years ago, I would have not projected that I would be saying this but...
I must tell you that you would be hard pressed to consistently equal the 2008 Corvette Z06 ABS system's performance manually.. It maintains all 4 wheels at absolute threshold throughout the braking event..
In competition, the ABS on these cars will work against you in a couple of ways -
1) The inability to locked them down on a serious off when you want the tires locked so as to keep the direction of the car in that of the momentum.
2) You can use these brakes until they are absolute toast with little to no feedback to the driver right up to the point of failure.
3) By virtue of #2 above - you go through a LOT of pads, Rotors and fluid...
------
All that said - as cool as this new technology is - I would not want it in my forty...
A couple of years ago, I would have not projected that I would be saying this but...
I must tell you that you would be hard pressed to consistently equal the 2008 Corvette Z06 ABS system's performance manually.. It maintains all 4 wheels at absolute threshold throughout the braking event..
In competition, the ABS on these cars will work against you in a couple of ways -
1) The inability to locked them down on a serious off when you want the tires locked so as to keep the direction of the car in that of the momentum.
2) You can use these brakes until they are absolute toast with little to no feedback to the driver right up to the point of failure.
3) By virtue of #2 above - you go through a LOT of pads, Rotors and fluid...
------
All that said - as cool as this new technology is - I would not want it in my forty...
Rob
Lifetime Supporter
Fran,
I do agree with the vintage car having late technology, however, I also think it would be nice to flip a switch and have it if it were needed. (say...if it starts to sprinkle while on track, or maybe your running balls out to push your buddy in his yellow bumble bee 40 outa the way and need that little bit extra...or something like that
. I would install it hidden inside the chassis, so it would not affect aesthetics. Main principle is with as much as we've got tied up in these cars, to have it when needed (toggle switch) is worth the hassle of making it work. I will however say, I enjoy driving on track with it off more than utilizing it. I feel like it's cheating, I feel like I am missing out on part of the driving experience (except the aforementioned caveat of chasing down bumble bees...).
Bigfoot,
Wait till you drive an 09', it now has the Bosch ESP system. Car and Driver recently tested it and achieved 1.07g on the skid pad. It was the best result they have ever achieved with ANY car. The Bosch system really optimizes the individual slip threshold of each wheel that you mention. Cool stuff.
429Mustang, (BTW..what is your name?...429Mustang seems a little impersonal...
The 95-97 Stang has an older version of a stand alone. I will likely target an 03/04 Mustang (Gen5.3 unit), as they are readily available and I am familiar with them. I will have to do some research regarding change revisions before executing a plan. Additionally, I will also be looking into other systems to try to match tone wheel tooth count and tire rolling radius as part of the assessment.
Jen,
Certainly seems like you know what you want. Regarding your distane for the ESP systems, I can only support the remark for on track usage. I can't stand driving on track with it. For street vehicles however, it is a life saver. I will be so brash as to say this is undisputable.
I do agree with the vintage car having late technology, however, I also think it would be nice to flip a switch and have it if it were needed. (say...if it starts to sprinkle while on track, or maybe your running balls out to push your buddy in his yellow bumble bee 40 outa the way and need that little bit extra...or something like that
. I would install it hidden inside the chassis, so it would not affect aesthetics. Main principle is with as much as we've got tied up in these cars, to have it when needed (toggle switch) is worth the hassle of making it work. I will however say, I enjoy driving on track with it off more than utilizing it. I feel like it's cheating, I feel like I am missing out on part of the driving experience (except the aforementioned caveat of chasing down bumble bees...).Bigfoot,
Wait till you drive an 09', it now has the Bosch ESP system. Car and Driver recently tested it and achieved 1.07g on the skid pad. It was the best result they have ever achieved with ANY car. The Bosch system really optimizes the individual slip threshold of each wheel that you mention. Cool stuff.
429Mustang, (BTW..what is your name?...429Mustang seems a little impersonal...
The 95-97 Stang has an older version of a stand alone. I will likely target an 03/04 Mustang (Gen5.3 unit), as they are readily available and I am familiar with them. I will have to do some research regarding change revisions before executing a plan. Additionally, I will also be looking into other systems to try to match tone wheel tooth count and tire rolling radius as part of the assessment.
Jen,
Certainly seems like you know what you want. Regarding your distane for the ESP systems, I can only support the remark for on track usage. I can't stand driving on track with it. For street vehicles however, it is a life saver. I will be so brash as to say this is undisputable.
I have no doubt that active handling systems can do wonderful things when they work correctly, but as there is no fail-safe system for such systems to figure out the difference between correct input data and erroneous input data, each resulting in a brake application of some sort, I am not interested.
On and off for the past year and half I have been doing Google searches for corvette wrecks, then filtering for year of production, obvious over-speed, drunk driving etc, and then reading the reports of the remaining wrecks. I looked only at C5 Corvettes, 2000 to end of production, all cars equiped with non optional Active Handling system. What I have seen is disturbing to me...Quite a number of people claim that the car crashed all on its own, that it just swerved without warning. On average I can find between 2 and 3 per week across the USA and Canada. The very evening before I was to travel to pick up the C5 that I had arranged to buy, there was a fatal wreck with a C5 here in our own city. The driver was killed but a passenger survived. The survivor later reported that while driving at the speed limit on a twisty and wet puddled section of freeway the car just lurched suddenly and smashed into the left side barrier, careening over it, and flipping mid air, to land on its roof on the opposing traffic side, about 8 feet elevation below the lanes they started from. It was hit twice by oncoming traffic. Fast Forward about a year... a member of our Corvette club was doing about 65 on a straight and level section of freeway, again in light rain with puddles that required mild steering input, and with mild adhesion variations as tires hit thin standing water or not. The car suddenly lurched left into the armco barrier. After 18K$ in the body and paint shop, and a day in the hospital for my friend suffering mild glass cuts, all was well. I saw the car in the body shop and inspected the location of the 3 axis G sensor located inside the dash board. It was not in its mounting clip, rather, it was hanging down about 20 degrees from horizontal and free to swing to and fro, to osolate with undulation of the car. My suspicion was that the sensor had come loose and sent erroneous data to the AH computer. Half a year later a firestorm of controversy erupted on http://www.corvetteforum.comthe Corvette Forum when a Canadian driver reported that a C5-ZO6 that he had just purchased suddenly and without provocation left the road while he was passing someone at about 75 MPH, launching him off the road to the right and into the puckerbrush, destroying the car. He found the same fault as I had seen on my friends car, the 3 axis sensor swinging loose from the mounting point. Given that there are also sensors for individual wheel speed, steering input and throttle/brake application that send data to the device that decides if, where, and how much brake to apply, there is just too much to go wrong for me to feel comfortable with such a system. I selected to purchase a C5 with no such system at all. I have no problem with anti-lock brakes, on a road use car that may well encounter rain and other issues in which the ABS can be of great assistance. GMs ABS system is so unreliable that it is currently disabled in my car, only 10 years old, due likely to failure of electrical connection between the main harness and the speed sensors in the hubs. Some idiot felt it appropriate to place the connector between the sensor and harness out on an A-Arm, where it is subjected to high cyclic G loading and the full force of environmental assault. It would have been smarter to mount the connection on the chassis, inboard of the suspension where the G loading would limited to that seen by the sprung mass, and a method of shielding the connector from grit and moisture might also be employed. I will be removing the connectors altogether, makeing a soldered joint instead. If it is still not working then, I wuld asume the computer for that suytem has failed too...At least the codes are saying it is a sensor issue, ..I hope so, Im getting tired of throwing money at the car just to keep it running at the expense of not spending the same money on real modification improvements.
My car also has Traction Control, which can be manually turned off each time you start up the car. Sometimes my husband forgets to do so...a month ago he was in an intersection when someone started to run a red light..He hit the throttle and the tires started to break free, engaging the T-C, shutting the throttle off, leaving him a nearly sitting duck, just barely missed by the errant driver. Was this a driver safety aid? I think not. For the past few weeks the TC/ABS system is in failure mode, meaning we have only brakes that respond to actual pedal actuation, and no interference with the electronically operated throttle. Were it not for the idea that sometimes in the rain, the ABS can be of great help, I would just pull the warning bulbs in the dash and leave the system broken. I have head of a guy that has reprogramed the TC so that a value for max speed upon activation was reset from 2 MPH to 200 MPH, thusly eliminationg its effect.
I plan on keeping this car as long as I remain capable of driving, and with so many of the electrics failing at only 10 years of age, I suspect that I will have to re-engineer, & rewire the darn thing to be reliable. One of the things that will eventually go is the fly-by-wire computer controlled servo operated throttle. Funny, they put a foot pedal and cable operated throttle on the LS engined Camaros, but not the Vettes. As an electronics engineer, I am confronted with designing for reliability and longevity in all the commercial projects we undertake, even so far as making studies of the solder used to make connections and its breakdown and aging modes. What I find in most automotive electronics is cheap parts and cheap assembly techniques, usually manufactured by the lowest bidder in a highly competitive environment, where every penny of cost is stripped if it can be, and often even if it is not. The result are electronics packages that are for the most part, temporary in function, if one considers a the life of an enthusiast or collector car in decades. When such systems are placed in control of elements of the vehicle that have the potential to injure or kill, well, I'm not at all convinced that it is a good idea. For sure, when they work just fine, they DO WORK just fine!, but how do you know when "it" will make the wrong computation decisions due to erroneous data and do something it really ought not to.
There was also a case last year where a fellow that was selling one of those megabuck Porsches was giving a potential buyer a ride on one of the tracks in California...Perhaps it was Laguna Seca, I don't remember, but it was at a Porsche Club track day event. The car crashed, killing both people. Witnesses speaking on the internet and in the media shortly after the collision said the Porsche jerked suddenly while at speed and hit a barrier. When I last looked up this case, the Lawyers on both sides were posturing with claims that the Active handling failed and caused the wreck, and on the other side, that driver error was to blame. Both peoples families were screaming wrongful death at each other all possible other parties. I don't know if the case has been litigated yet, but given the skill demonstrated by both drivers earlier in the day, in both this car and others, it seems unlikely to me that the driver would just jerk a half million dollar car into a wall at high speed for the fun of it.
I did not mean to open a heated discussion here, I'm just interested in learning how I might maybe just be able to improve the OEM ABS system currently in my C5, and how such a similar ABS system might also be employed in a future project car. When I leaned how to drive back in the late 60s, non of this driver aid stuff existed. The guy up the street from me was an instructor at the local SCCA driving school...He, not my dad, thought me how to drive. He made it abundantly clear that driver control was most important. In my first 6 months of driving I probable spent more hours in a 4 wheel drift than most dozen people would experience collectively in a lifetime. Within a few years I was in college and helping some local teams with chassis engineering. I had a chance to drive and set-up everything from production class road racers to a Formula 5000 Lola T-332....THAT was a nice car, by the way...best drive of my life. I managed hundreds of thousands of miles in my highly modified Lotus Europa, often running G-19 slicks on the streets in the summer months. I was most comfortable in those days of my youth cornering at WELL over 1G on the street. I'm quite a bit older and slower now, but have always had cars that handled well, and that I have pushed in cornering far beyond the average driver when I had the opportunity to do so in relative safety. I have had 5 or 6 point harness in most of my cars too, just as an example of how far away from the ordinary I am. To be honest, I just don't trust active handling to be there all the time totally failsafe. I don't want it. ABS, on the other hand, if it does fail, does so a manner that simply puts the brakes in total manual control without the 'throbbing modulation' which is to me a benign failure.
Fran, I am mistaken then about the C4 and C5 hubs....I asked the guy at our local Chevy dealer parts counter about this last year. He told me that they were the same, just C4 not with ABS/TC speed sensors...I was mis-informed. Not surprising from a Chevy dealership! I have not personally compared the parts side by side. Thanks for the input/correction.
I'm trying to wrap this up, but find I need to say again that with the ABS/TC system currently disabled, my C5 is finally really fun to drive! I'm having a blast! Of course I'm wearing out rear tires faster that I should, but comes with the territory. If only I could install a Tilton dual master cylinder system with a balance bar..Now that would be neat, and is PRECISELY why I need to build a 'sports' car that will give me the driving experience I really want....I had hoped to have embarked on said project this year just concluding. As we are in the high-end toy business, extreme performance audio stuff, as the economy has slowed we have suffered along with our client base as they have had less and less discretionary income. We have had to put our own 'luxury' projects on hold. My husband and I stated looking at a GT40 replica as a potential all-year sports car about 7 years ago, but ended up with a C5 Vette for that purpose, instant gratification and it will haul groceries. I began heading more in the direction of eventually building a car with fewer compromises than a GT40, considering the roof and large glass as compronises, more in the vein of a late 60s sports racer...Oh so many of them from that period to love and enjoy! ....that is if we ever make any real money again before I am too old to do so and enjoy the results, that is exactly what I plan on doing...I'm leaning towards an LS engine as I am already familiar with it and gaining tuning experience and dyno time in my C5, perhaps G-50 gearbox or who knows what...New options keep coming up.
BTW, I only just started posting on this forum, but have lurked here for MANY years...It sure has been educational to read all the build threads and the assorted technical threads...Great place!:thumbsup:
Jennifer
On and off for the past year and half I have been doing Google searches for corvette wrecks, then filtering for year of production, obvious over-speed, drunk driving etc, and then reading the reports of the remaining wrecks. I looked only at C5 Corvettes, 2000 to end of production, all cars equiped with non optional Active Handling system. What I have seen is disturbing to me...Quite a number of people claim that the car crashed all on its own, that it just swerved without warning. On average I can find between 2 and 3 per week across the USA and Canada. The very evening before I was to travel to pick up the C5 that I had arranged to buy, there was a fatal wreck with a C5 here in our own city. The driver was killed but a passenger survived. The survivor later reported that while driving at the speed limit on a twisty and wet puddled section of freeway the car just lurched suddenly and smashed into the left side barrier, careening over it, and flipping mid air, to land on its roof on the opposing traffic side, about 8 feet elevation below the lanes they started from. It was hit twice by oncoming traffic. Fast Forward about a year... a member of our Corvette club was doing about 65 on a straight and level section of freeway, again in light rain with puddles that required mild steering input, and with mild adhesion variations as tires hit thin standing water or not. The car suddenly lurched left into the armco barrier. After 18K$ in the body and paint shop, and a day in the hospital for my friend suffering mild glass cuts, all was well. I saw the car in the body shop and inspected the location of the 3 axis G sensor located inside the dash board. It was not in its mounting clip, rather, it was hanging down about 20 degrees from horizontal and free to swing to and fro, to osolate with undulation of the car. My suspicion was that the sensor had come loose and sent erroneous data to the AH computer. Half a year later a firestorm of controversy erupted on http://www.corvetteforum.comthe Corvette Forum when a Canadian driver reported that a C5-ZO6 that he had just purchased suddenly and without provocation left the road while he was passing someone at about 75 MPH, launching him off the road to the right and into the puckerbrush, destroying the car. He found the same fault as I had seen on my friends car, the 3 axis sensor swinging loose from the mounting point. Given that there are also sensors for individual wheel speed, steering input and throttle/brake application that send data to the device that decides if, where, and how much brake to apply, there is just too much to go wrong for me to feel comfortable with such a system. I selected to purchase a C5 with no such system at all. I have no problem with anti-lock brakes, on a road use car that may well encounter rain and other issues in which the ABS can be of great assistance. GMs ABS system is so unreliable that it is currently disabled in my car, only 10 years old, due likely to failure of electrical connection between the main harness and the speed sensors in the hubs. Some idiot felt it appropriate to place the connector between the sensor and harness out on an A-Arm, where it is subjected to high cyclic G loading and the full force of environmental assault. It would have been smarter to mount the connection on the chassis, inboard of the suspension where the G loading would limited to that seen by the sprung mass, and a method of shielding the connector from grit and moisture might also be employed. I will be removing the connectors altogether, makeing a soldered joint instead. If it is still not working then, I wuld asume the computer for that suytem has failed too...At least the codes are saying it is a sensor issue, ..I hope so, Im getting tired of throwing money at the car just to keep it running at the expense of not spending the same money on real modification improvements.
My car also has Traction Control, which can be manually turned off each time you start up the car. Sometimes my husband forgets to do so...a month ago he was in an intersection when someone started to run a red light..He hit the throttle and the tires started to break free, engaging the T-C, shutting the throttle off, leaving him a nearly sitting duck, just barely missed by the errant driver. Was this a driver safety aid? I think not. For the past few weeks the TC/ABS system is in failure mode, meaning we have only brakes that respond to actual pedal actuation, and no interference with the electronically operated throttle. Were it not for the idea that sometimes in the rain, the ABS can be of great help, I would just pull the warning bulbs in the dash and leave the system broken. I have head of a guy that has reprogramed the TC so that a value for max speed upon activation was reset from 2 MPH to 200 MPH, thusly eliminationg its effect.
I plan on keeping this car as long as I remain capable of driving, and with so many of the electrics failing at only 10 years of age, I suspect that I will have to re-engineer, & rewire the darn thing to be reliable. One of the things that will eventually go is the fly-by-wire computer controlled servo operated throttle. Funny, they put a foot pedal and cable operated throttle on the LS engined Camaros, but not the Vettes. As an electronics engineer, I am confronted with designing for reliability and longevity in all the commercial projects we undertake, even so far as making studies of the solder used to make connections and its breakdown and aging modes. What I find in most automotive electronics is cheap parts and cheap assembly techniques, usually manufactured by the lowest bidder in a highly competitive environment, where every penny of cost is stripped if it can be, and often even if it is not. The result are electronics packages that are for the most part, temporary in function, if one considers a the life of an enthusiast or collector car in decades. When such systems are placed in control of elements of the vehicle that have the potential to injure or kill, well, I'm not at all convinced that it is a good idea. For sure, when they work just fine, they DO WORK just fine!, but how do you know when "it" will make the wrong computation decisions due to erroneous data and do something it really ought not to.
There was also a case last year where a fellow that was selling one of those megabuck Porsches was giving a potential buyer a ride on one of the tracks in California...Perhaps it was Laguna Seca, I don't remember, but it was at a Porsche Club track day event. The car crashed, killing both people. Witnesses speaking on the internet and in the media shortly after the collision said the Porsche jerked suddenly while at speed and hit a barrier. When I last looked up this case, the Lawyers on both sides were posturing with claims that the Active handling failed and caused the wreck, and on the other side, that driver error was to blame. Both peoples families were screaming wrongful death at each other all possible other parties. I don't know if the case has been litigated yet, but given the skill demonstrated by both drivers earlier in the day, in both this car and others, it seems unlikely to me that the driver would just jerk a half million dollar car into a wall at high speed for the fun of it.
I did not mean to open a heated discussion here, I'm just interested in learning how I might maybe just be able to improve the OEM ABS system currently in my C5, and how such a similar ABS system might also be employed in a future project car. When I leaned how to drive back in the late 60s, non of this driver aid stuff existed. The guy up the street from me was an instructor at the local SCCA driving school...He, not my dad, thought me how to drive. He made it abundantly clear that driver control was most important. In my first 6 months of driving I probable spent more hours in a 4 wheel drift than most dozen people would experience collectively in a lifetime. Within a few years I was in college and helping some local teams with chassis engineering. I had a chance to drive and set-up everything from production class road racers to a Formula 5000 Lola T-332....THAT was a nice car, by the way...best drive of my life. I managed hundreds of thousands of miles in my highly modified Lotus Europa, often running G-19 slicks on the streets in the summer months. I was most comfortable in those days of my youth cornering at WELL over 1G on the street. I'm quite a bit older and slower now, but have always had cars that handled well, and that I have pushed in cornering far beyond the average driver when I had the opportunity to do so in relative safety. I have had 5 or 6 point harness in most of my cars too, just as an example of how far away from the ordinary I am. To be honest, I just don't trust active handling to be there all the time totally failsafe. I don't want it. ABS, on the other hand, if it does fail, does so a manner that simply puts the brakes in total manual control without the 'throbbing modulation' which is to me a benign failure.
Fran, I am mistaken then about the C4 and C5 hubs....I asked the guy at our local Chevy dealer parts counter about this last year. He told me that they were the same, just C4 not with ABS/TC speed sensors...I was mis-informed. Not surprising from a Chevy dealership! I have not personally compared the parts side by side. Thanks for the input/correction.
I'm trying to wrap this up, but find I need to say again that with the ABS/TC system currently disabled, my C5 is finally really fun to drive! I'm having a blast! Of course I'm wearing out rear tires faster that I should, but comes with the territory. If only I could install a Tilton dual master cylinder system with a balance bar..Now that would be neat, and is PRECISELY why I need to build a 'sports' car that will give me the driving experience I really want....I had hoped to have embarked on said project this year just concluding. As we are in the high-end toy business, extreme performance audio stuff, as the economy has slowed we have suffered along with our client base as they have had less and less discretionary income. We have had to put our own 'luxury' projects on hold. My husband and I stated looking at a GT40 replica as a potential all-year sports car about 7 years ago, but ended up with a C5 Vette for that purpose, instant gratification and it will haul groceries. I began heading more in the direction of eventually building a car with fewer compromises than a GT40, considering the roof and large glass as compronises, more in the vein of a late 60s sports racer...Oh so many of them from that period to love and enjoy! ....that is if we ever make any real money again before I am too old to do so and enjoy the results, that is exactly what I plan on doing...I'm leaning towards an LS engine as I am already familiar with it and gaining tuning experience and dyno time in my C5, perhaps G-50 gearbox or who knows what...New options keep coming up.
BTW, I only just started posting on this forum, but have lurked here for MANY years...It sure has been educational to read all the build threads and the assorted technical threads...Great place!:thumbsup:
Jennifer
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Rob
Lifetime Supporter
Jen,
For the record, I am not saying I love this technology for all applications. As mentioned, there are times when you are better off w/o it, such as deep sand, deep snow or anytime locking the wheels is desired or anytime power slip is desired. Heck 98% of the time I disable my traction control as soon as I sit in the seat. In the same breath I have begged my wife to never touch the button, as she needs it on.
But I will argue that what you have described below is a failure of design/execution rather than a failure of technology. The Delphi hybrid system that is in the C5 can't compare to what is in the 2009 cars. This I can say, but it seems you have identified a serious design flaw that may very well be at the root of the issue (the YRS retention device). If indeed the Yaw Rate Sensor is coming loose from it's mount, and the Delphi ECU isn't catching the implausible input, then it could indeed cause some strange things to occur.
Regarding TC interventions, this is primarily an ECU tune thing. I totally understand why you would want to disable it, if the performance is so crippling then I too would want to modulate the throttle myself. My Bullitt Mustang was "that" bad too (2001), however my Mach I (2004) is significantly better. I actually have strong acceleration with it engaged, whereas the Bullitt would fall on it's face.
In general, this technology is tuned for the masses. The OEs want (feel the need) to constrain control situations to the point where the driver's can't make stupid errors. This is unfortunate, but litigation has tought them how to act.
I heard the megabuck porsche incident was a rear suspension issue..... ???
Aside of this....sounds like you're enjoying your car. That is the important part. I only wish my wife enjoys cars as much......
For the record, I am not saying I love this technology for all applications. As mentioned, there are times when you are better off w/o it, such as deep sand, deep snow or anytime locking the wheels is desired or anytime power slip is desired. Heck 98% of the time I disable my traction control as soon as I sit in the seat. In the same breath I have begged my wife to never touch the button, as she needs it on.
But I will argue that what you have described below is a failure of design/execution rather than a failure of technology. The Delphi hybrid system that is in the C5 can't compare to what is in the 2009 cars. This I can say, but it seems you have identified a serious design flaw that may very well be at the root of the issue (the YRS retention device). If indeed the Yaw Rate Sensor is coming loose from it's mount, and the Delphi ECU isn't catching the implausible input, then it could indeed cause some strange things to occur.
Regarding TC interventions, this is primarily an ECU tune thing. I totally understand why you would want to disable it, if the performance is so crippling then I too would want to modulate the throttle myself. My Bullitt Mustang was "that" bad too (2001), however my Mach I (2004) is significantly better. I actually have strong acceleration with it engaged, whereas the Bullitt would fall on it's face.
In general, this technology is tuned for the masses. The OEs want (feel the need) to constrain control situations to the point where the driver's can't make stupid errors. This is unfortunate, but litigation has tought them how to act.
I heard the megabuck porsche incident was a rear suspension issue..... ???
Aside of this....sounds like you're enjoying your car. That is the important part. I only wish my wife enjoys cars as much......
** WARNING THREAD HIJACK **
Hi Jennifer,
You mention switching to a Tilton Twin MC setup?
I'm using the Z06 6 piston setup on my car (see link in sig if interested) with a Wilwood MC pedal box and no servos.
Do you happen to know of other people who may be doing similar things on Corvettes? And if so what MC sizes did they go for? At the moment my math gave me a 1" front and 0.75" rear.
BTW. Its excellent to read contributions from a lady who clearly knows her onions.
Thanks,
Hi Jennifer,
You mention switching to a Tilton Twin MC setup?
I'm using the Z06 6 piston setup on my car (see link in sig if interested) with a Wilwood MC pedal box and no servos.
Do you happen to know of other people who may be doing similar things on Corvettes? And if so what MC sizes did they go for? At the moment my math gave me a 1" front and 0.75" rear.
BTW. Its excellent to read contributions from a lady who clearly knows her onions.
Thanks,
No, I'm not switching to a Tilton in the Vette...Just WISH it was feasible!
When I do get around to building a project car, IT will NEED a balance bar dual master setup, standard race car stuff I am familiar with for 40 years.
With ABS, front-real brake balancing is a bit moot, in the balance bas sense, as each wheel will modulate more or less correctly without it.
I was out yesterday evening testing the non-ABS condition of the C5 in the rain on BFG KDW-2s. Balance was OK in the straight, very OK in fact, but lacking suitable corners in the neighborhood, especially in the dark, I don't yet know how it will work in transition entering a corner from higher speed....That is summer time style driving anyway and its wet as heck kere now for another 4 or 5 months....Still undecided about repairing the ABS. because if I do, the TC system comes on with it...The new engine map just done eliminates the retarding timing when ABS comes on, so there is hope that if I do fix it, I wont have throttle & power response issues if it goes active. ABS works damn well in the rain for braking....Guess I'll get to repairing the bad conenctors between sensors and main harness and see if that fixes it. If not then I likely lost the ABS/TC module at about the same time the engine conputer went out...I'm not getting codes for that system having failed, just sensor input so I hope that diagnostics is correct. If repaired wires does fix it, I'll run a slice up to a switch in the cabin so that I can repliate the same 'failure' I currently have by just flipping the switch to get totally manual brakes on demand, or rain safe ABS on demand. Best of both worlds..
My engine tuner says I am nuts compared to the other Corvette owners he deals with...Mostly men that care about paint and shine...and NEVER seem to wear out their OEM run-crap tires...I wear out 2 sets of tires a year corner carving! C5 Corvette is not a light car, but it is a nice GT and yes I DO have alot of fun with it as a daily driver.
He said that the really the idea likes that I am looking for performance and good handling...not just good looks for a ride to the country club...Too many of his customers only drive in the sunshine and make good advantage of the fact the car will 'haul' 2 sets of golf clubs...he agrees with me that though the hatch-back stowage area is nice to have and use, the only thing that the car really ought to 'haul' is to 'Haul Ass'!
I have enjoyed this thread...no hijack intended,
Cheers Guys!
Jennifer
When I do get around to building a project car, IT will NEED a balance bar dual master setup, standard race car stuff I am familiar with for 40 years.
With ABS, front-real brake balancing is a bit moot, in the balance bas sense, as each wheel will modulate more or less correctly without it.
I was out yesterday evening testing the non-ABS condition of the C5 in the rain on BFG KDW-2s. Balance was OK in the straight, very OK in fact, but lacking suitable corners in the neighborhood, especially in the dark, I don't yet know how it will work in transition entering a corner from higher speed....That is summer time style driving anyway and its wet as heck kere now for another 4 or 5 months....Still undecided about repairing the ABS. because if I do, the TC system comes on with it...The new engine map just done eliminates the retarding timing when ABS comes on, so there is hope that if I do fix it, I wont have throttle & power response issues if it goes active. ABS works damn well in the rain for braking....Guess I'll get to repairing the bad conenctors between sensors and main harness and see if that fixes it. If not then I likely lost the ABS/TC module at about the same time the engine conputer went out...I'm not getting codes for that system having failed, just sensor input so I hope that diagnostics is correct. If repaired wires does fix it, I'll run a slice up to a switch in the cabin so that I can repliate the same 'failure' I currently have by just flipping the switch to get totally manual brakes on demand, or rain safe ABS on demand. Best of both worlds..
My engine tuner says I am nuts compared to the other Corvette owners he deals with...Mostly men that care about paint and shine...and NEVER seem to wear out their OEM run-crap tires...I wear out 2 sets of tires a year corner carving! C5 Corvette is not a light car, but it is a nice GT and yes I DO have alot of fun with it as a daily driver.
He said that the really the idea likes that I am looking for performance and good handling...not just good looks for a ride to the country club...Too many of his customers only drive in the sunshine and make good advantage of the fact the car will 'haul' 2 sets of golf clubs...he agrees with me that though the hatch-back stowage area is nice to have and use, the only thing that the car really ought to 'haul' is to 'Haul Ass'!
I have enjoyed this thread...no hijack intended,
Cheers Guys!
Jennifer
