B.O. Supports Mosque near ground zero.

[Keith]

You may join the other side, the ones that killed your family? I really don't know what to say that would'nt be rude!

Al, I think Nick was surmising what he may do if a 'foreign' force dropped a bomb on his family in his own country (instead of bombing the 'bad guys') which would act as a kind of catalyst forcing him into the arms of the 'bad guys' so to speak. At least, that's how I read it.

I leave it to you to fill in the (purely theoretical of course) players & nations.

 

[Nick]

Al, I think Nick was surmising what he may do if a 'foreign' force dropped a bomb on his family in his own country (instead of bombing the 'bad guys') which would act as a kind of catalyst forcing him into the arms of the 'bad guys' so to speak. At least, that's how I read it.

I leave it to you to fill in the (purely theoretical of course) players & nations.

Keith,

Spot on thanks.

 

[Nick]

S and M, really, look it up before you write it!

Al,

Apologies for not looking it up first,I did not mean to upset you, didn't really want to search for SM on my works computer,I need the job. Although you seem to have got the gist of that point.

However, my main point which you seem to have missed, still stands I would much rather deal with a tolerant do gooder person for example say a judge, than an extreme one wouldn't you?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

Apologies for not looking it up first,I did not mean to upset you, didn't really want to search for SM on my works computer,I need the job. Although you seem to have got the gist of that point.

However, my main point which you seem to have missed, still stands I would much rather deal with a tolerant do gooder person for example say a judge, than an extreme one wouldn't you?

I partially agree with you, I would'nt feel it necessary to a make nice with the mosque builders when they are not willing to listen to the wishes of so many people. Bloomburg says that the victims survivors are OK with the mosque at GZ, that could not be further from the truth. My friend that lost his wife and 3 year old daughter on plane 2 said the survivors group is very much against it but we don't hear that on the news. We hear what this administration wants us to hear.

 

[Keith]

I'm quite sure BO does not have to hold a referendum to discover what the majority of Americans will think about this plan to build the community centre 'at or near' TT site and not all will be rabid war mongers or right wing 'raghead-under -the-bed' zealots. Most will likely say (as I do) "I say, that's a trifle insensitive don't you think?"

And without missing a step he could have said "I don't think so chaps, not appropriate, come back with another plan" and he could have proxied that decision through the right channels - not directly from his desk.

The stakes are now escalating daily as a result of dallying. This will become a very divisive issue if not already.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Keith, You are correct, except I don't think there are any "right channels" in this administration. But that's what we get for voting an academic as president who surrounds himself with academics.

 

[Keith]

Keith, You are correct, except I don't think there are any "right channels" in this administration. But that's what we get for voting an academic as president who surrounds himself with academics.

Ah, I see, well then I suppose he (or his team of academia) could have always developed a custom algorithm and delivered in a virtual (but basic) machine powered by fuzzy logic. Simples...

 

[Nick]

Bloomburg says that the victims survivors are OK with the mosque at GZ, that could not be further from the truth. My friend that lost his wife and 3 year old daughter on plane 2 said the survivors group is very much against it but we don't hear that on the news.

Al,

It's easy for me to talk I have not lost anyone, but let them build their mosque you don't have to agree with it you don't have to like it but you can build something better.

This is what one amazing man built in my town after the IRA murdered his son, he even managed to share a platform with Gerry Adams. As he said "I can forgive but not forget", I'm not sure I could do the same in his shoes, but I can see why his way is right.


Foundation for Peace Home

 

[Keith]

I actually agree with you 100% Nick. Those people really get my vote, but regretfully in our world today there are millions who would rather hate, burn & kill - one has to keep plugging away, as we have only been on this earth for the relative blink of an eye and are still relatively savage. In some ways given the advantages of modern life, education and freedom of information and association we have gone seriously backwards, thanks in large part to the 3M's.

Media, Marketing and above all, Money, as the first 2 activities lead directly to the acquisition of power through Money, whether the power be corporateand/ or political.

 

[Doug S.]

It is starting already, note this Associated Press report:

"MURFREESBORO, Tenn. (AP) — A suspicious fire that damaged construction equipment at the site of a future mosque in Tennessee has some local Muslims worried they are being dragged into the debate over a proposed Islamic community center near Manhattan's ground zero.
Police say four pieces of equipment at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro were doused with an accelerant and one set ablaze early Saturday morning.
The site is now being patrolled at all hours by the sheriff's department.
One of the Muslim leaders of the project said he has lived in the area for almost 30 years and never had trouble because of his faith, even after 9/11.
Essam Fathy believes the fire could be the work of people outside the community."

Note, also, that the authorities are defending the RIGHTS of those who are building the mosque, patrolling the area 24/7 to prevent the vandalism from recurring. If tactics such as these occur in New York City at GZ, I'd predict there will also be protective efforts mounted by the NYPD at GZ......a sad standoff, to be sure!

Let's hope the issue doesn't get that far!

Doug

 

[Keith]

This is interesting, for some 30-40 years I always attended Entertainment Technology trade fairs all over the USA. Often we had a stand on which we were supposed to use "nominated contractors" to assemble at hugely inflated prices. Many times if I so much as fetched a chair from another area, or plugged in a lead they didn't supply 200 "workers" would walk off site and refuse to return until I had been thrown out for using "non union labour" and gave me an insight to how powerful some of the unions were.

So, if the conditions are the same today, would the Unions get involved?

PS I will have to say I've had the same experience in London too.

 

[Doug S.]

So, if the conditions are the same today, would the Unions get involved?
QUOTE]

I can see that happening; in fact I think that is the most plausible avenue of peaceful resistance. Perhaps that incredibly inflated union labor can manage to price the mosque project out of existence :idea: ?

Cheers from Doug!

 

[Pat]

Nothing like pouring fuel on a fire. It may be the proposed mosque will qualify for public financing.

Ground Zero Muslim center may get public financing | Reuters

Apparently it's not the only one...

Global Islamic sites to receive US funds - Culture & Society - ArabianBusiness.com

I thought we had that "separation of church and state" discussion a while back...

 

[Bill Musarra]

Little known fact about Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan.
Article by Connie Hair. Maybe thier finagaling will be enough to sway public officials.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38763


Bill

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

It's easy for me to talk I have not lost anyone, but let them build their mosque you don't have to agree with it you don't have to like it but you can build something better.

This is what one amazing man built in my town after the IRA murdered his son, he even managed to share a platform with Gerry Adams. As he said "I can forgive but not forget", I'm not sure I could do the same in his shoes, but I can see why his way is right.


Foundation for Peace Home

Nick, This has nothing to do with religious freedom, it has everything to do with respecting the wishes of the victim's survivors and 70% of the population of the US. Like I said, there are plenty of other places to build in New York city, and their insistence on building on this site just goes to reaffirm my feeling that this is a slap in the face. I'm sorry, I can't forget my friends and the others that died. For a religion that is so intolerant of other religions to be so forceful in their attempt to build this mosque amazes me. A lot of people poo poo the idea of extremist, but there are so many instances of extremism in mosques all over the US. Other than BO's church in Chicago (Wright) how many churches are related to extremist in the US, very few I would guess. The German authorities just closed a mosque that had extremist ties. German police close mosque linked to 9/11 - Terrorism : news, world | euronews

 

[Nick]

how any churches are related to extremist in the US, very few I would guess. The German authorities just closed a mosque that had extremist ties. German police close mosque linked to 9/11 - Terrorism : news, world | euronews

Al,

In a Panorama program just after Colin Parry's son was murdered he went over to the USA with his wife to plead with those supplying money to the IRA to stop.

Basically they told him to go away and as I understand it the real IRA is still supplied with money from the USA.

If this money supply could be linked to members of catholic churches surely those churches be closed down?

 

[Keith]

Al,

In a Panorama program just after Colin Parry's son was murdered he went over to the USA with his wife to plead with those supplying money to the IRA to stop.

Basically they told him to go away and as I understand it the real IRA is still supplied with money from the USA.

If this money supply could be linked to members of catholic churches surely those churches be closed down?

That's the one Nick.

In a nutshell, the paradox that largely eludes Western (Christian) intellectual thinking on the subject of non secular terrorism.

 

[Pat]

Al,

In a Panorama program just after Colin Parry's son was murdered he went over to the USA with his wife to plead with those supplying money to the IRA to stop.

Basically they told him to go away and as I understand it the real IRA is still supplied with money from the USA.

If this money supply could be linked to members of catholic churches surely those churches be closed down?

Nick,

I'm Catholic but I wouldn't support building a Catholic Church on the site of an IRA bombing in Belfast for the same reasons it's wrong to build the NY mosque next to GZ. It just causes renewed hurt and divisiveness.

Given the significant amount of charitable funding that has gone from the US to Hamas there are no calls to close mosques, just the call not to build one next to GZ. So your desire to close Catholic churches seems a bit of a comparative stretch.

Founders of US Muslim charity jailed for 65 years for funding Hamas - Telegraph

 

[Nick]

Nick,

I'm Catholic

So your desire to close Catholic churches seems a bit of a comparative stretch.

Founders of US Muslim charity jailed for 65 years for funding Hamas - Telegraph

Veek,

As a former silver medal holder of the Order of Saint Stephen Catholic alter servers, with a godfather who held the Papal medal, went to a catholic schools, and with a mother who has a direct line to the Pope I am not really looking at closing any Catholic churches.

Just playing devils advocate and pointing out what I see as a few anomalies in the one rule for us one rule for you thinking, and to show not all Catholics support the IRA and not all Muslims support al-Qaede.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Granted, not all muslims are extremist, but there were a hell of a lot of people cheering on 9/11 news clips. Nick, if the only sticky point is the location of the mosque at GZ, then wouldn't you think moving to another NY location would be an easy fix? Again, that makes it suspect for the insistence to build at GZ. " Some wacky members of our religion blew up a landmark and killed 3000 people, we can move the mosque, that would be the right thing, what Allah wants us to do". Works for me.