What a great event. I am looking forward to seeing it. Possibly in person, but more likely, armchair. I would like to meet both manufacturers. I am looking at possibly a new build and thinking of either a superlite roadster or the FF 33 hot rod. This will be great.
Battlecry..!!!!!
- Thread starter gt40fran
- Start date
Jack ob.
You are on the form...NASCAR, Saturday Night is two keys down. You must have got on here by accident. Hey Moderator, Didn't you have the NASCAR filter on when this all happened. I thought I was the only "Chief Dick" here. (after the race, I hope to be promoted to MAJOR!)
Cheers,
Richard
Owner
2009, channel 40 news, (Sacramento, ca) " Yes, there are teams that are racing today that should not be here." quote, Johannass Vanoverbeek, pro driver interview while pointing to my car. However, we were amongst the 5 fastest cars in the race and won a series championship during the 25. We were third overall when we lost a gearbox.
You are on the form...NASCAR, Saturday Night is two keys down. You must have got on here by accident. Hey Moderator, Didn't you have the NASCAR filter on when this all happened. I thought I was the only "Chief Dick" here. (after the race, I hope to be promoted to MAJOR!)
Cheers,
Richard
Owner
2009, channel 40 news, (Sacramento, ca) " Yes, there are teams that are racing today that should not be here." quote, Johannass Vanoverbeek, pro driver interview while pointing to my car. However, we were amongst the 5 fastest cars in the race and won a series championship during the 25. We were third overall when we lost a gearbox.
Does he drive flat out?
As a matter of fact, I think he did!
It was too funny, because his stock bodied BMW was sitting next to the GTM-R for the interview and the chick that did the interviewing talked to our driver for MINUTES, then put the mic in Johans face, he said this comment posted above, which took all of about five seconds, and then the chick went right back to our driver and ask if she could sit in our car!
Would be really cool to have the GTM-R and the SLC-R in an interview like this THIS year!?
NOTE TO SLC TEAM:
I did not see your name on the registration list......unless you are trying to fake us out by registering under the "Subaru SLC" (oh, I mean WRC)
Better confirm....only 13 in the ES and 2 in the esr class(they break so they don't relly count only for qualifying) MERCER is back..Laqst years record breaking winner!
RM
I did not see your name on the registration list......unless you are trying to fake us out by registering under the "Subaru SLC" (oh, I mean WRC)
Better confirm....only 13 in the ES and 2 in the esr class(they break so they don't relly count only for qualifying)
MERCER is back..Laqst years record breaking winner!RM
I am anxiously waiting for this event. It's the first time that the SLC is going to go head to head with a direct competitor in it's market. All the world would need is an Ultima and you guys would have a race of epic proportions and one that will no matter of the outcome and comrodery between the teams is going to START SOME SH!TE across forums and the world. The GTM Vs. SLC. Vs. Ultima debate is about to get real serious really fast.
Case in point; I was one of those flopping between the Ultima (and even the NOBLE before it went the way of the DODO) and the GTM (didn't even know of the SLC at that time). While each car sparks an emotion in all of us differently it's the real world comparison that WE ALL have been wanting and missing. It has all been fluff up until this point.
Now this will be the first CONCRETE evidence as to which is the better car (although the GTM-R is anything but stock as delivered from FFR while the SLC aside of drive train and fuel cell is all stock as delivered from RCR). The #'s will we crunched by all of those in both camps so regardless of the finish we will be able to see what did better and where (so blowing up the drive train or a wreck will not throw off the data).
This is going to be a GREAT RACE for both teams but one company is going to have their tails between their legs at the finish as the results are sure to go viral. Fran get ready to hire more fabricators as I have a feeling that you might start to get A LOT MORE attention than you are prepaired for.
While I want both teams to go all out I would like even more for them to do it while being safe. That said GO SLC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Case in point; I was one of those flopping between the Ultima (and even the NOBLE before it went the way of the DODO) and the GTM (didn't even know of the SLC at that time). While each car sparks an emotion in all of us differently it's the real world comparison that WE ALL have been wanting and missing. It has all been fluff up until this point.
Now this will be the first CONCRETE evidence as to which is the better car (although the GTM-R is anything but stock as delivered from FFR while the SLC aside of drive train and fuel cell is all stock as delivered from RCR). The #'s will we crunched by all of those in both camps so regardless of the finish we will be able to see what did better and where (so blowing up the drive train or a wreck will not throw off the data).
This is going to be a GREAT RACE for both teams but one company is going to have their tails between their legs at the finish as the results are sure to go viral. Fran get ready to hire more fabricators as I have a feeling that you might start to get A LOT MORE attention than you are prepaired for.
While I want both teams to go all out I would like even more for them to do it while being safe. That said GO SLC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Win on Sunday, sell cars on Monday" Damian, you are just the people I intended to ruffle for this event. Little do you know, the GTM-R is pretty well stock from FFR. My contract with them 4 years ago was to keep it as stock as possible. The only thing as the same with Fran, was to make it conform to SCCA and Nasa safety rules with bigger fuel cells. The GTM-R in spirit continuous the same "donor format (C5 stock motor, stock C5 brakes and control arms, Nothing Custom about it. It is very unfortunate that FFR wanted no part in this year;s effort as they could have got some good mileage from this event. I would bet the rent money that Fran knows however this event concludes, as a company, will get all the mileage! Actually, the 2 cars are very different in the path in which they were built and designed. Pro build vs. hobby build, Experience has its common ground, but Fran's team has more experience in a high profile arena as we have a lot of Saturday night and fix stuff with no money approach. Dollar for dollar, side by side the SLC should prevail. Here is the the deal breaker! Fran mentioned this earlier, is race experience. They will rely on past experience, while we have current experience and 6 years in the 25 hour. The GTM-R is specific built for the 25 while the SLC is built for? We know what fails in 25 hours, they don't. We know exactly when to change tires, exactly when to fuel, exactly when to change brakes, exactly when to change to rains, exactly when to change drivers. I agree, it will be a very important race for the kit car industry as a whole. Glad you chimed in.
Richard Migliori
owner of GTM-R
Richard Migliori
owner of GTM-R
Richard no offense but you have changed the body drastically, center seat so chassis changes had to be made and I am sure that I missed a lot of stuff but you get what I mean. Your car is FAR from anything that FFR sells in kit form. Didn't you upgrade the front suspension (which I KNOW is something that most GTM owners change first thing)? I am not trying to take anything away from your team as I applaud your efforts but as YOU POSTED "The GTM-R is specific built for the 25" so again how do you even claim to be an off the self anything? Now I would care to wager that your team has a TON OF EXPERIENCE IN FABRICATION. Hell what novice creates their own body to address the obvious flaws in body design (why not just put a huge wing on the front of the car :thumbsup: LOL)? Stop trying to play down the merits of your team because you have said several times that what you lack in $ you make up for in EXPERIENCE. I tend to think that Frans team being there to "pit crew" the car only puts them on an even playing field but even than YOUR TEAM has the advantage in THIS particular race. This is why I said that the #'s are far more important to us than the final outcome.
Lets be honest You would have gone for the SLC (which you have stated else where) if Fran had been more "open" to the center seat design that you wanted. Either way I hope that both teams have a great showing as it can only benefit the industry as a whole. GO SLC!!!!!!
I forgot to ask .... Hows is that proprietary trans you guys are running? Another off the shelf unit that I am sure bolted right up WITH NO MODIFICATIONS TO CHASSIS and costs peanuts right (sand bagger LOL)
Lets be honest You would have gone for the SLC (which you have stated else where) if Fran had been more "open" to the center seat design that you wanted. Either way I hope that both teams have a great showing as it can only benefit the industry as a whole. GO SLC!!!!!!
I forgot to ask .... Hows is that proprietary trans you guys are running? Another off the shelf unit that I am sure bolted right up WITH NO MODIFICATIONS TO CHASSIS and costs peanuts right (sand bagger LOL)
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Damian,
I would love to show you pics but I don't know how to post them. The center seat location was done because of safety. Fran added the 20 point cage because of safety. the only front suspension change we made was that we put the upper control arm on the bottom of the stock ffr location. We added a sway bar that Don and I bent using my backhoe. We changed the eccentric corvette bolts to slugs that Jim made to keep the caster camber more dependable for racing. We added boat fans for brake cooling..that's it on the front. SAME AS THE KIT. The rear is right out of the gTM manual except for the alignment slugs and brake blowers. I DID NOT ASK FRAN about anything about the SLC and being open to anything. (might be mistaken by someone else). I didn't know the SLC existed until I saw it a while back on the GTM forum. Yes, we have MADE a lot of stuff on the car (gadgets and widgets) but would hardly identify as a RACE advantage or "my car is better than yours" We have a bunch of guys that get together that like making stuff for this car and for their efforts I put them on it. We do make a lot of stuff out of nothing and that is the real passion that drives this team. Experience, I said earlier that Fran has forgotten more about racing that I will ever know in my lifetime. I do agree that it will be FUN, and most entertaining! It is specific built for endurance racing just as any other kit is "specific Built" for a goal. It isn't any different. NOW if the GTM was just a silhouette and I started with a clean sheet of paper, the 2 cars would probably very equal in inventory and performance. The gearbox: The mendeola box is a "test" box which has not been in a 25 hour race. The recommended box (g50) has been used previously, (as per ffr build manual), but the Mendeola proved to be the ultimate in gearboxes and price for mid engine component cars.
rM
I would love to show you pics but I don't know how to post them. The center seat location was done because of safety. Fran added the 20 point cage because of safety. the only front suspension change we made was that we put the upper control arm on the bottom of the stock ffr location. We added a sway bar that Don and I bent using my backhoe. We changed the eccentric corvette bolts to slugs that Jim made to keep the caster camber more dependable for racing. We added boat fans for brake cooling..that's it on the front. SAME AS THE KIT. The rear is right out of the gTM manual except for the alignment slugs and brake blowers. I DID NOT ASK FRAN about anything about the SLC and being open to anything. (might be mistaken by someone else). I didn't know the SLC existed until I saw it a while back on the GTM forum. Yes, we have MADE a lot of stuff on the car (gadgets and widgets) but would hardly identify as a RACE advantage or "my car is better than yours" We have a bunch of guys that get together that like making stuff for this car and for their efforts I put them on it. We do make a lot of stuff out of nothing and that is the real passion that drives this team. Experience, I said earlier that Fran has forgotten more about racing that I will ever know in my lifetime. I do agree that it will be FUN, and most entertaining! It is specific built for endurance racing just as any other kit is "specific Built" for a goal. It isn't any different. NOW if the GTM was just a silhouette and I started with a clean sheet of paper, the 2 cars would probably very equal in inventory and performance. The gearbox: The mendeola box is a "test" box which has not been in a 25 hour race. The recommended box (g50) has been used previously, (as per ffr build manual), but the Mendeola proved to be the ultimate in gearboxes and price for mid engine component cars.
rM
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25 hours seems to be more of an endurance contest at speed than what I usually think of as a race. That said, I'm guessing that prior experience in endurance events will guide the race manager on when and how to be the tortoise versus when and how to be the hare.
So far, to my surprise, I haven't seen any side bets offered - not that I'm trying to stir things up or anything. :shifty:
So far, to my surprise, I haven't seen any side bets offered - not that I'm trying to stir things up or anything. :shifty:
Damian,
I missed the body and wing part. The body has stayed origonal to the kit. The only thing that has been changed is I filled in the front holes where the fog lights go. NOTHING ELSE check the website pics. The aero package is a home built wing and 2 canards in the front with a wooden splitter. Nothing a basic skilled person couldn't do with a jig saw. I would bet you on the expert fabricators and I would bet you the rent money on that (I would win!). The volunteers that started with me on this project 3 years ago had virtually no car experience other than home maintenance stuff. As the car gained credibility in the endurance world, we have picked up a couple people that knew more about racing. I'm not down playing the operation, it is the truth! The car is a basic kit from FFR and a bunch of guys that hang out at my house on weekends work on the car and this is what they have created. I would have to say that our biggest accomplishment would be going from 202 lap times to 1:52XX in 2 seasons without putting one nickel in the motor. I was all done with passion and refinement with the donor parts and the FFR parts provided in the kit.
RM
I missed the body and wing part. The body has stayed origonal to the kit. The only thing that has been changed is I filled in the front holes where the fog lights go. NOTHING ELSE check the website pics. The aero package is a home built wing and 2 canards in the front with a wooden splitter. Nothing a basic skilled person couldn't do with a jig saw. I would bet you on the expert fabricators and I would bet you the rent money on that (I would win!). The volunteers that started with me on this project 3 years ago had virtually no car experience other than home maintenance stuff. As the car gained credibility in the endurance world, we have picked up a couple people that knew more about racing. I'm not down playing the operation, it is the truth! The car is a basic kit from FFR and a bunch of guys that hang out at my house on weekends work on the car and this is what they have created. I would have to say that our biggest accomplishment would be going from 202 lap times to 1:52XX in 2 seasons without putting one nickel in the motor. I was all done with passion and refinement with the donor parts and the FFR parts provided in the kit.
RM
C'mon, Richard! You completely changed the roofline.
This pretending that the GTM-R is so very close to a stock GTM kit is getting pretty ridiculous.
I like the GTM... check the build logs, there's hardly any out there that dont SIGNIFICANTLY modify the as shipped kits: doors, windows, vents, rear quarters, etc etc.
I think the major "contention" is that there has been a modification of the chassis/central "backbone" of the GTM to accomodate center seating. Taking out the central frame without adding the 20-point cage or extra side tubing would likely significantly weaken the frame. So, I guess the additional cage has a two-fold "safety" benefit of keeping the structural integrety of the frame AND crash protection.
You got me on the roof...it was raised because of safety and it conceals the muffler tubing part of the roll cage. There is NO aero significance to that and a lot of "street builders put roof scoops, as ours is a bubble to hide the protruding SAFETY cage". The body is to low for my safety zone.
RM
RM
Ron Earp
Admin
Pardon me, but you guys are satisfied with a roll cage made of muffler pipe? I haven't looked at the NASA regs but the SCCA regs require DOM pipe, not ERW, and depending on weight and diameter, could require up to 0.120" wall.
Ron,
the "muffler tubing" is a poke at the 20 point chrome molly cage Fran put in the SLC. (see earlier comparison). Our cage is .120 DOM tubing that is approved by both SCCA and NASA. Aside from the stock chassis configuration, it stayed the same, We added to it, the necessary bars to conform and in addition meet my own personal safety zone.
I will answer any of your Q's
RM
the "muffler tubing" is a poke at the 20 point chrome molly cage Fran put in the SLC. (see earlier comparison). Our cage is .120 DOM tubing that is approved by both SCCA and NASA. Aside from the stock chassis configuration, it stayed the same, We added to it, the necessary bars to conform and in addition meet my own personal safety zone.
I will answer any of your Q's
RM
The 20-point cage is unobtrusive and available to any and all customers who want it delivered as such. Besides the door bars, which are removable, you wouldn't even know it was there. Afaik, the race roll cage was developed in Howards car, I have it in mine where it was slightly refined, and there are are others who have it too that are further refined, in particular the door bars (which I now want
). Howards, mine and the other cars were delivered with the cage installed.Does FFR remove the center tunnel and make the other numerous obtrusive modifications to the "cage" in the GTM to make it compliant with multiple sanctioning bodies? Hardly.
I've read above where Crash refers to the SL-C in the 25 hrs. as the SL-CR, attempting to designate it as a race specific car much like your GTM-R. Not the case at all with the SL-C. The car at the 25 hour race will be what any customer can and has bought (such as myself and others) to make street legal track (and safety compliant) terrorists. That is a MAJOR distinction between the SL-C and your GTM-R.
Please don't take any of that the wrong way Richard, I've been a fan of your car since you began the build and your first 25 hour race and since then. I and I'm sure everyone else here appreciates what you have done with the given platform, no matter how much you try to downplay it
From the Superlite site for reference:
Race Roll cage Upgrade. Adds increased stiffness, and meets FIA, NASA and SCCA regulations for race car safety in most of their series- consult RCR for details before you select this option. Includes side bars that dramatically stiffen the door openings, tie-in bars to the front suspension area, additional cross bracing inside the monocoque in the front to add stiffness in the front, and other miscellaneous changes to the cage. Bolts in, and requires no welding, so it is easy to remove if you decide to convert to the street, or upgrades are added later. Interferes with the optional lower door panels (which are not needed in a race car). $3,995
Dave,
Don't EVER think that you could offend me as I take all this as fun and constructive criticism! ( I learn a lot too!). I am glad you are a fan of the car! The GTM is a grassroots effort by no stretch of the imagination, from the wooden splitter to the Parmesan cheese catch cans. I find it amusing to see people enjoy and poke fun and comment on this car as it bets the odds of what it is and what people interpret it as. When I started this project, I had a minimum wage budget, and the words of FFR, " the GTM is never intended to be a race car." Pound for pound, the SLC is much closer to being a comp approved race car than the GTM will ever be.
RM
Don't EVER think that you could offend me as I take all this as fun and constructive criticism! ( I learn a lot too!). I am glad you are a fan of the car! The GTM is a grassroots effort by no stretch of the imagination, from the wooden splitter to the Parmesan cheese catch cans. I find it amusing to see people enjoy and poke fun and comment on this car as it bets the odds of what it is and what people interpret it as. When I started this project, I had a minimum wage budget, and the words of FFR, " the GTM is never intended to be a race car." Pound for pound, the SLC is much closer to being a comp approved race car than the GTM will ever be.
RM
King Dick...or is it still Capt?
For me, the thing that is most disappointing about the GTM is FFR's failure to leverage technology to make this a better all-around vehicle. At the other site this would draw hisses and boos, as heretical as it is. The fact is that it doesn't take any more time or money to engineer something correctly as it does to engineer something incorrectly.
Not to mention the assymetry of the bodywork, the general lack of fit and finish of panels out of the mold, as well as all the niggling details which have never been properly addressed and amended.
For under $10,000 I can have Janicki cut a urethane plug on their 5 axis gantry that has all the detail required to build production quality molds from. That FFR hasn't gone through the effort to prep a body to paint-ready status, had the best side digitized, inverted that data, then have a plug cut that could then provide molds for an outstanding GTM body, is beyond me.
That coupled with the raging fanboy-ism of the FFR builders despite all their own bitching and whining is really the icing on the cake.
I'm glad you have fun with the GTM-R, but after reading all the drama that goes into producing even a half-way decent GTM, my money is better spent on a well-finished product like Fran's so that I can focus on building my way without having to correct factory deficiencies.
That to me, is what a component/kit car is supposed to be about. Any less and it's just trying to make a fast buck. Fran seems to be doing alright...as does FFR. Just imagine what FFR could accomplish if they had Fran's attention to detail and integration of the whole!
For me, the thing that is most disappointing about the GTM is FFR's failure to leverage technology to make this a better all-around vehicle. At the other site this would draw hisses and boos, as heretical as it is. The fact is that it doesn't take any more time or money to engineer something correctly as it does to engineer something incorrectly.
Not to mention the assymetry of the bodywork, the general lack of fit and finish of panels out of the mold, as well as all the niggling details which have never been properly addressed and amended.
For under $10,000 I can have Janicki cut a urethane plug on their 5 axis gantry that has all the detail required to build production quality molds from. That FFR hasn't gone through the effort to prep a body to paint-ready status, had the best side digitized, inverted that data, then have a plug cut that could then provide molds for an outstanding GTM body, is beyond me.
That coupled with the raging fanboy-ism of the FFR builders despite all their own bitching and whining is really the icing on the cake.
I'm glad you have fun with the GTM-R, but after reading all the drama that goes into producing even a half-way decent GTM, my money is better spent on a well-finished product like Fran's so that I can focus on building my way without having to correct factory deficiencies.
That to me, is what a component/kit car is supposed to be about. Any less and it's just trying to make a fast buck. Fran seems to be doing alright...as does FFR. Just imagine what FFR could accomplish if they had Fran's attention to detail and integration of the whole!
