CANAMSA - SA stratch build

I am truly sorry to get this message. It is not a complete surprise, but still a tremendous shame. I was afraid you would run out of energy before the car was completely finished, that you might burn out on getting all the myriad details of a chassis right, but having made it far past the point when most people would have run out of steam, it looked like you were on track to at least finish the body very soon, and I expected that you would succeed in finishing it. You deserve tremendous credit for having accomplished a truly amazing feat to have gotten this far, and in my opinion, even if it doesn’t seem that way to you at this point, you’re very close to finishing the body. Perhaps you could have a professional fiberglass person finish making the molds from your plug. Or perhaps you can sell the unfinished molds and plug, since they are surely worth something to someone else who would like to have a Lola, given what a head start you’ve given them. Your body would certainly be much nicer than a Gardner Denver, for example.

As far as a chassis to go under the body, perhaps a Gardner Denver would work for that? Or RCR or?

We bought an almost complete set of molds for out M1B and M1C replicas, and by the time we were done fixing details like the fender lips, making side pod molds, and were ready to pull a complete set of parts including all the interior ductwork, seats, etc. our investment in the molds was over $15K, which doubles what we paid for an almost complete set of molds to start with.

I don’t think we would have even attempted to do what you have done. We might have tried to find a clean and accurate body to splash, but creating it from scratch from photos and models is a Herculean task, and would have cost at least $20-$30k or more, in my estimate, with an experienced and highly skilled person doing the work in the most efficient and cost effective manner possible. It was hugely ambitious of you, and I hope you’re proud of what you accomplished. You should be. It’s just that it doesn’t pay out for only one body, you have to want to be able to make spares or more bodies to justify all the immense amount of work.

Here is an example of the big bucks method of doing what you did on your own in your garage, and they were starting with a body to copy. This is overkill in my opinion, if you have a body you don’t have to do this, but it’s indicative of how much effort this can take.

http://www.lmp-engineering.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=3&lang=1

Click on the “Body” label over the thumbnail of the body on this page to see the process. In my opinion this validates what an accomplishment your effort is.

I always thought you were in over your head, but most people who build a car are, especially scratch builders. I really did think, and hoped, that you would have the energy to persevere, having gotten so very far.

As I’ve said, this is why we would just buy a body from Toluca Lake Classics if we wanted to build a Lola. And then copy that if we wanted to make spares. It’s so much work to do from scratch, especially if the goal is just to have a car. If the goal is to do it all yourself, you’ve done a hell of a job. Please take this as a heartfelt compliment.

My sincere sympathies. Again, I’m very sorry to hear this. The vast majority would never have attempted this, and wouldn’t have gotten nearly as far as you did if they’d tried. This is a completely unreasonable thing to have attempted under any circumstances, and you did an outstanding job despite having no previous experience.

David Merritt
 
OK, you got me. I'm glad it was a joke, I'd love to see you finish the car. I meant everything I said. I'm very, very impressed, and I don't impress easily.

The disadvantages of the Rover engine, probably not relevant on an under 2000 lb. car, are 1) limited displacement potential due to the relatively small bore centers, and 2) small ports in the heads. I don't know what bigger heads may be available, but there might be some Repco/Brabham stuff lying around somewhere, that would certainly wake it up. Done right even without that it ought to make 400 HP anyway, which is all the original Olds engined M1s had. And it is an all aluminum engine, which is of course why Bruce McLaren stuck with it for a while even though the iron 333 Chevys in the Lolas were making 450 or so. It's at least 150 lbs lighter than an iron SBC. And unfortunately, while inexpensive SBC aluminum heads are no problem these days, it's basically impossible to find an aluminum SBC block for less than $1500, and that's if you really work at it.

If you can get a cheap LS1 you might consider that, 500 HP is just a cam swap away, and of course it's all aluminum too. Around here an entire nice LS1 out of a Camaro goes for $1500, which is the price of the cheapest possible used aluminum SBC block.

You shouldn't be bored either way.

David
 
Wow, thanks for the glowing testimional Dave, you are making me feel bad for the joke

Current status.

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Here you can see the difficult acute angle I've given myself at the front edges of the parting detail, and 2 small scars I've put into pattern. Wil just plastacine these up and poiish the marks out the mold. They might even be in the headlight cutout.


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Ive built some benches to stand on to ease access to the upper surface, and down into the nose duct.

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Trying to decide that I CAN lay this up in one hit.


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Cheers

Fred W B
 
You've earned the praise, it really is that much work, as you know, and it's equally true that almost no one would attempt this, and that the vast majority of the few who did woudn't have persevered.

I still think you're nuts, but in the best possible way.

And yes, I'm a little gullible, but also, as I said, I wouldn't have found it hard to believe that you'd had enough, given the enormity of the project and the amount of work. Very glad that's not the case.

Look forward to seeing the finished body. Still recommend you copy a known good, which is to say benign, suspension geometry. What it does at full compression is especially important, as is keeping it from bottoming out, especially in a corner, and bumpsteer is crucial.

Good luck. Let us know what you find out about hopping up the Rover engine. At this point if someone wanted an M1A with one we'd sell him a roller and wish him well, not becasue there's anything wrong with the engines but becasue we don't want to learn them. We do offer a setup for a Ford, and that's quite enough extra work.

David Merritt
 
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Believe it or not, the nose will come out of this mold in one piece without braking the mold. That is a thin race car quality piece of glass done in cloth with the minimum necessary amount of resin.

David Merritt
 
I think we should occasionally just re-read Freds very first post on this thread, he has stuck to his initial plan very well over the years.

Re the Rover engine, try this link if you want it big and bad, no need to take a back seat to any SBF or SBC..Welcome to Wildcat Engineering



You've earned the praise, it really is that much work, as you know, and it's equally true that almost no one would attempt this, and that the vast majority of the few who did woudn't have persevered.

I still think you're nuts, but in the best possible way.

Good luck. Let us know what you find out about hopping up the Rover engine. At this point if someone wanted an M1A with one we'd sell him a roller and wish him well, not becasue there's anything wrong with the engines but becasue we don't want to learn them. We do offer a setup for a Ford, and that's quite enough extra work.

David Merritt
 
Thanks, great info. I'm as intrigued by the big bore block as I am by the heads. A 6 liter Rover/Olds is really big. McLaren would have killed for these parts back in the day.

So do you know the price on the heads? And what they flow at the usual standard of 28" of water? As an example, a reasonably good and fairly moderately priced SBF or SBC head these days flows 300+ CFM @ 28", which with enough cam etc, will support approximately 650 HP. This can be on a smaller motor spun higher or a bigger motor turning a lower speed. The website was quoting 450HP. I'm sure these heads will do more, but as you can see from the valve sizes, the bore centers are still ultimately a limitation. For an engine family, bore centers are destiny.

I'd love to see one of the 6 liter engines with the good heads in an MGB V8. That would be big fun, and a bolt in.

For cost effective aluminum go fast, an LS1 with stock heads and block is still the hands down winner. I'm not a particular fan of them, it's just the way it is. Past 500 hp, it looks different.

I'll be happy to put my Rodeck block, Chevy "Fast Burn" headed 410 up against the killer Rover, but most people couldn't build one as cheap as I did. On the other hand, I bet the big Rover with the big heads isn't cheap either.

Still really great that the parts are available. If someone want an "Olds" engined M1A, we'll recommend them.

David Merritt
 
Also, I think Ian Richardson is the lunatic (I mean that in the best possible way) who built a Corvair bodied Saloon racer with M8 McLaren suspension and a big block Chevy and Hewland LG from the M8 - an M8 Corvair, although he didn't actually use the tub.

Chevrolet Camaro & Corvair

At the time we had a Crown conversion mild SBC V8 Corvair, so we thought this was the most fabulous thing imaginable.

Hope that's him.

David Merritt
 
I had also built a Crown conversion Corvair with a stock 327 SBC. Really went like stink! Constantly revising this and that to provide adequate cooling, but lots of fun.

Like an Idiot (note capital "I"), I traded it even for two Chevy Vega hatchbacks, one of which I shoehorned a 60's Buick aluminum V8 into. That was fun too until I cornered hard on an on-ramp and broke the bolts holding the rear swaybar.
 
Ours had a mild, but not stock, iron 350, and a close ratio (2.64 to 1 first) gear set in the tranaxle. With a Corvette aluminum radiator and a pair of Fiat 124 fans, as long as you bled the air out of the system it cooled flawlessly. Honest. Not nearly enough brake, had the stock drums with Velvetouch metallic linings, would almost stop once from speed.

Huge fun to pick on 911s with, almost not fair. Car had a Class 1 bumper hitch, the owner used to relish passing Porsches on the outside of a turn whle pulling his Sunfish sailboat. Not smart but worth it.

Car is still around, in a barn with a partially completed conversion to an LS1, and 11" GM brakes installed. Sadly, will probably never run again, the LS1 would kill the transaxle, and we all know what a good transaxle entails. It needs a 930 or such at this point.

David Merritt
 
I chose a 930 for my SL-C build, love that gearbox! The Saganaw in the Corvair was always suspect, even with the Crown input shaft. Never presented a problem for me, but I was careful.
 
Yes its Ian Richardson. I had a quick look... Kiwi Tuscan should get you an article on a 5.7 liter version in a TVR out in NZ. Since that was written I believe he has debuted a bigger 6 liter, but I have not followed his progress in recent times. Yes I believe the bits are expensive, anything from the UK tends to be compared to USA stuff that is made in greater numbers.
 
Expensive is a relative term, For parts not avialable elsewhere, like a big bore block and heads that work, you ahve to compare them to an aluminum SBF or SBC block and heads, and those blocks aren't cheap unless you sue a retired sperint car block for the SBC like I did. And even then they're $1500+ for the block. Which is why the $1500 for the complete LDS1 looks so good, as long as 500 Hp will get the job done for you. Past that, they get to be just as expensive.

Just as Ian has made the Rover/Olds a player, a SBF is capable of far more HP today than back in the day, with aluminum blocks and huge heads readily available and 400+ cu in engines trivial to build. I personall like the idea of an M1A with waht looks like a regular Rover/Olds but is one of Ian 6's liter motors with his heads. You should be able to surprise soem people. On my budget, however, I'm for the dirt cheap aluminum 410 SBC, basically a hand me down sprint car motor.

With the Corvair transaxle, the input shaft, which is really just a regular 10 spline Saginaw 4 Speed input shaft, is a weak point, but the little tiny ring & pinion is more of a problem. And yes you have to exercise restraint. No winding it up and side stepping the clutch, unfortunately, one of my all time favorite things to do. Most especially with a car that hooks up.

So the 930, or something equivalenty strong and abuse resistant, would be a lot more fun. Charlie Friend has gone 207 MPH with his 930 equipped V8 Corvair - actually the second, he rolled the first into a ball in Nevada and walked away. Good construction.
Big Bend Open Road Race pics: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine
Makes me feel sane.
David Merritt
 
Thanks all for the discussion and info re Rover V8's.

As for what I am using, after pretty much finally deciding that I will have to rebuild the old smoker P6 Rover V8 I have, a tiny local paper add turned this up.

Brand new block, built and blueprinted by a reputable local engine builder years ago for a stillborn racing car project. Never been started, still with assembly lube inside. Oversize valves, gas flowed heads, roller rockers, dry sump, even came with the dry sump pump bits. Unfortunately somebody had pinched the lifters and pushrods, but it did came at the right price. So I have bought the bits I need to inspect and complete this motor, along with a somewhat milder cam than the "fullrace" one that was fitted.

It might make a modest (in this company) 250 hp, which I will carry on with in the meantime.

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Turning back to the body work, I have just finished the first layer (tissue + 300 gram mat) of the centre piece of the nose mold.

I had been putting it off, waxing, rewaxing, making matt templates, cutting the various bits of mat (including the multiple corner fillets) etc etc, and doubting If I could do it okay single handed. I laid out all the matt pieces in order, and even did a "dress rehearsal" of laying the bits in. At this stage I cut the surface matt to butt into the flange corners, with separate pieces to fit on the flanges, and fillet corner pieces then laid into the corner joints. Also did some detail pieces around/in the location bumps. The surface only was 9 separate pieces of matt.

I finally screwed up my courage, started at 9.00 Saturday morning and by 2.30 it was done, with the exception of the corner fillets down into the nose duct, which I finished yesterday, after sanding the applicable areas. The complete area with flanges is 3.6 m2. I put the 1.8 kg of gell on in three stages (corners/edges + coat 1 + coat 2) and made up 700 gram batches of resin which I catalysed as I went along, working nonstop.

Their are a few very small areas where I have chased back into small air bubbles and repaired, deep in the front recess particularly was a pain, but I thought I did pretty well overall.

Now to finish sanding the surface and cut the 600 matt for the next layers.

Cheers

Fred W B

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Bloodyhell fred, you almost gave me a hart attack!

top job on the nose section mould. hope it parts without to much trouble.

On the engine,
A friend of mine has abotained the engine of a " bowler wildcat 2003 " I don't know if you guys a familiar with these (sure Uk folk know them) these are the sort of vehicle that'll do 0-60 in 5 seconds in the sanddunes. the RV8 (tvr) engines in these deliver 350hp NA and the ultra spec are supercharged at 503BHP.

he's building the NA version in a westfield now. maybe that's a good option when more reliable power is needed.

grtz Thomas

PS: Never say your quiting again, it'll take me 10 cups of coffee and the best part of the morning te recover that joke :-0
 
Hell Fred, you had everybody going mate, I was reading all this and starting to wonder about my own body I'm about to start soon, I was thinking if Fred has given up with all his tallent what chance do we mere mortals have, So I was very pleased to find it was your SA humer coming out. After seeing what you and Mr Noo are producing it really puts the pressure on to keep up the standard and you guys have set that BLOODY HIGH. Keep up the good work Mate. Cheers Leonmac.
 
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