Did this really happen?

It's all getting very one sided. I had two good friends and their daughter on the 9/11 planes.

Al,

I am deeply sorry that you lost your friends in the 9/11 attack, the loss of any life through violence is obscene but is not one sided .

They estimate that between 100000 and 150000 civilian lives have been lost in Iraq. There is no shortage of estimates, but they vary enormously. The Iraqi ministry of health initially tried to keep a count based on morgue records but then stopped releasing figures under pressure from the US-supported government in the Green Zone.

There are two ways to deal with aggression one is with more aggression, one is peacefully. I believe the peaceful approach is the one that works.

I moved to Warrington in Jan 1993, on 20 March 1993 an IRA bomb went off in Warrington town centre killing 12 year old Tim Parry and 3 year old Johnathan Ball, and injuring many others.
COLIN Parry Tim's dad, is that rare and extraordinary person - a still-grieving father who has forgiven his son's murderers for the sake of peace.

His 12-year-old son Tim was one of the victims of the 1993 IRA Warrington bombings and since then he has campaigned relentlessly to bring together divided communities and help those whose lives have been shattered by political violence.

At 12.12pm on 20th March 1993 two bombs exploded in the centre of Warrington, one outside Boots on Bridge Street, the other outside Argos.They injured 54 and killed two children.

After a period of grieving Colin and Wendy Parry stayed with families on either side of the Ulster Divide and visited Eire and America to meet those who raised funds for those terrorists who killed their son.

"We wanted no more families to suffer as we and so many others had suffered," he says. "We wanted peace and that gave a sense of purpose to our lives which would otherwise have been empty of anything but grief and anger and incomprehension.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Pansies........
Rainbow.......
Faggots.......

Are you till in the third grade?

What are you guys really trying to say, are you afraid of terrorests or gays?
 
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Nick,
I am all for peace, but first you have to agree to put the guns down and talk. By talk I mean that both parties have to respect the rights of others to have a difference of opinion. The Taliban has no such feelings for the truth or a willingness to discuss differences. Radicalized Muslims have been the main source of worldwide bombings, beheadings, civilian casualties, disruption of peaceful gatherings and on and on. If they could articulate how they would share the world with the rest of the athiests, christians, hindus, buddists,jews,etc., then they might ahve a right to an audience. The continual hardline attitude of non-inclusiveness and the unwillingness to even agree to live and let live has put them in the gunsights of the western alliances. If this type of behavior breaks out in China, then the Chinese will join the fight as well.
I have watched the Jews get blasted in the press about their attempts at protecting their countrymen and their way of life while we have danced with the Arabs over Palestine, but the truth is, the current Hamas leadership has said that they will not compromise with the Jews. Their position is that the Jews need to be irradicated.

When the Muslim nations wake up and realize that everyone should have the right to live and choose their religion (or non-religion) and that GOD wants willing partners, then We, the civilized societies, can have a discussion about Muslim rights. But untill that day, I will advocate that freedom of choice for Everyone is worth fighting for.
Garry
 
Nick,

I am no longer religious but I come from a very religious (Christian) family.
It is nice to see an attitude such as that you have written about in amongst all these strident comments about God, Allah etc.
What you have written seems to me to depict a far more genuinely Christian attitude than that shown by most who would call themselves such.
I watch with disgust vision from the US of placarded haters hanging around funerals for soldiers/gay people/who knows what else, making the pain of their loss just that little bit greater for the families.
God hates this, God hates that, sad that they create their God so exactly in their image.
Some belief... So much hate... Reminds me of the vileness of others who would hate for religions sake...

I guess people will always take what they want from any religion. Haters will hate whether they are Christian, Moslem, Jewish, Whatever. Any excuse.

On a lighter note I saw a comment made somewhere once regarding the message in the first post. It went along the lines of - "Shariah law! This is a Christian country! An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, that would sort them out."
Made me laugh. :)

How much better off we would be if we could extract any and all religion from politics and law and keep it in a place of its own - preferably far away from our education systems as well.

Hard as it can be to do otherwise (and yes I do understand the urge), fighting hatred with hatred just doesn't work.
The guilty should be brought to justice no doubt, but "collateral damage" "over there" is no different from the murder of innocents anywhere else.
Just as ridiculous as the idea that the deaths of innocent people is just collateral damage, is the cry - "They are all a part of it or complicit in it". That is just a lame attempt to justify their murders. It is also used to justify intolerance etc.
It was reportedly said by the murderers involved in 9/11 about the people in the WTC and it seems to be said regularly by those who would be better.
I'm pretty sure any real God could see through such pathetic rationalisation.


Hopefully your friends have found peace.


Tim.

P.S. Turn the other cheek, don't judge etc - Their Jesus was such a PC pansy... ;p

P.P.S. Garry, The English might remember something about an Irish problem, something to do with Catholics and Protestants I think...
 
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Nick,
Radicalized Muslims have been the main source of worldwide bombings, beheadings, civilian casualties, disruption of peaceful gatherings and on and on.

In damning evidence Baroness Manningham-Buller told Sir John Chilcot's inquiry: "Our involvement in Iraq radicalised, for want of a better word, a whole generation of young people - not a whole generation, a few among a generation - who saw our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan as being an attack on Islam."

She said the overthrow of Saddam Hussein had allowed al-Qaida to establish itself in Iraq for the first time.


"Radicalized Muslims have been the main source of worldwide bombings, beheadings, civilian casualties"

They estimate that between 100000 and 150000 civilian lives have been lost in Iraq. These civilian casualties were not caused by radicalized Muslims.
 
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Nick,

I am no longer religious but I came from a very religious (Christian) family.
It is nice to see an attitude such as that you have written about in amongst all these strident comments about God, Allah etc.
.
The guilty should be brought to justice no doubt, but "Collateral damage" "over there" is no different from the murder of innocents anywhere else.


Roaldin,

Thank you for your kind words, and understanding my point.
 
Do we really need a mosque in New York city,right around the corner from the World Trade Center site.I DON'T THINK SO!!!!
I'd be surprised if a New Yorker doesn't blow it to pieces!!! I'll put it on my to do list if it gets built!!
Bill
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Roaldin,

You have eloquently stated what I feel should be obvious to everyone.

Bill, do you really think that what you suggest would make things better?

Really?
 
Do we really need a mosque in New York city,right around the corner from the World Trade Center site.I DON'T THINK SO!!!!
I'd be surprised if a New Yorker doesn't blow it to pieces!!! I'll put it on my to do list if it gets built!!
Bill

Bill,

That would make you no different to any other terrorist.
 
They estimate that between 100000 and 150000 civilian lives have been lost in Iraq. These civilian casualties were not caused by radicalized Muslims
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Before the American invasion, hundres of thousands of civilians had died under that regime. The greatest threat to Iraqui civilians has been since the beginning of the war has been from their own factions setting off bombs, not the troops on the ground. The use of IED's has been the greatest casualty maker. It was shown that civililian caualties has risen, not fallen, from the indecriminate use of explosives.

Garry
 
<!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=ignore) -->
Before the American invasion, hundres of thousands of civilians had died under that regime. The greatest threat to Iraqui civilians has been since the beginning of the war has been from their own factions setting off bombs, not the troops on the ground. The use of IED's has been the greatest casualty maker. It was shown that civililian caualties has risen, not fallen, from the indecriminate use of explosives.

Garry

Garry,

My main point was that innocent civilians have been killed on both sides, and Baroness Manningham-Buller main point appears to be that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein had allowed al-Qaida to establish itself in Iraq for the first time.
 
Of course you are right,I spoke from emotion after losing friends at the towers. We as Americans and other free societies are better than that.
Bill
 
[QUOTEMy main point was that innocent civilians have been killed on both sides, and Baroness Manningham-Buller main point appears to be that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein had allowed al-Qaida to establish itself in Iraq for the first time.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> ][/QUOTE]

Nick,
Manningham-Buller is probably right in that assessment. I personnally think that going to Iraq was a mistake we could have (or should have) avoided for at least a decade. And it's true that once the old regime was out of the picture and the region fell into chaotic political morass, Al-Qaida had an opprtunity to move in. What a curse on the Iraqi people.
One might want to look at this situation another way. A friend of mine who is highly placed in the US miltary (no names please) has studied this problem with the students at the miltary colleges. One rather stark way of looking at the growth of Al-Qaida in Iraq is that it exposed the leadership to attack and allowed the US to cut off the head of the snake. Had we limited ourselves to Afghanistan alone, chances are excellent that most of the key leaders of Al-Qaida would still be alive. The Iraqi invasion misled the AQ leadership into thinking like conventional warriors and they attempted to take on the US and Allies in direct conflict. It was a grave mistake on their part. The Allies have done an excellent job eliminating the origional leadership and thousands of radical Islamists from around the globe.
Maybe, it has been said, that the Allies took the fight to them where a conventional army has the advantage. It has proved to be the case if you are talking about just the military solutions. What has failed, and General Stanly McCrystal tried to point out, is the political solution. Our ineptitude in dealing with the culture and its nuances much as we did with japan before WWII is the greatest failure of this campain.
In other words, the US should have used more hubris before committing itself to this war. However, once committed, the Allies have shown that they can conquer any enemy that wants to take them on in conventional warfare. Al Qaida leadership made that mistake and its ground forces took a hit.
That is not to say that the Iraqi people haven't paid a dear price. They have. But if you speak with most Iraqi's today, they are feeling proud of their new freedoms and they are very glad to have Saddam gone.
Garry
 
Too good to not chime in on.....
9/11 should have concluded years ago with four very well placed B61 nukes - big enough to get everyone's attention, yet not exactly showing off. Then it'd be up to the others to decide if they wanted to drag this one out for years to come. Proven strategy, look it up.
 
Do we really need a mosque in New York city,right around the corner from the World Trade Center site.I DON'T THINK SO!!!!
I'd be surprised if a New Yorker doesn't blow it to pieces!!! I'll put it on my to do list if it gets built!!
Bill

How many muslims live in the center of New York? I would say that traveling to this mosque would be a fair hike and time consuming for most, so what could the reason be for building it at that site?
I heard all that "turn the other cheek" bullshit from my religious parents. That and a good right cross will buy some respect. A lesson hard learned, but worth the wait.
 
Jim, I'm only afraid of gay terrorists! As Doug suggested, a few well placed B61 nukes would end any problem..
 
Jim, I'm only afraid of gay terrorists! As Doug suggested, a few well placed B61 nukes would end any problem..

Why does everyone find this so distasteful? Flying two planes loaded with men, women, and children into two skyscrapers in a heavily civilian populated area like New York equals out, don't you think? No, I'm not above that, that's stupid! Turn your own cheek. Sharia this! And no, I'm not angry, just sick of pacifist drivel. Glad we didn't have this thought process on 12/07/1941.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Ok Doug69, I'll play your game,

Tell us were you would put these "four well placed" nuclear bombs?.

Molleur, and how would they end any problem..
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
The pacifist and the warrior will never see eye to eye, or agree on anything.
Jim may I suggest the reason you are not writing in Japanese has more to do with the warriors than the pacifists.
 
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