Driving style....

[Malcolm]

It has been very interesting going to the Goodwood Revival and having driven the circuit just two weeks prior. It gets you much more into the mind of the drivers out there and so you get more out of watching. However it trigegred a thought on my own way of driving that I would be interested to have some feed back on.

The start of our trackday was wet and the circuit very slippery. I had a great time driving in the wet, much closer to the limit of traction than I would normally drive in the dry. And often the car stepped out of shape a bit in the corners too. Ignore power slides, my car won't do them at these speeds in the dry, but the car did get loose, suffered a little push and even I managed a drift occaisionally in the corners.

Now clearly sideways driving on a circuit is not necessarily the quickest way round a corner so just go one small stage back from that level of lack of traction and you are were I want opinion.

In the wet I am quite happy driving at this "car floating" or twitchy level but don't/won't go there in the dry.

Apart from G forces being higher, should the car behave/feel the same(ish?) in the dry as in the wet? Therefore if I am happy drving like this in the wet, why should I not be the same in the dry?

For this discussion, let's assume the car set up is correct for the conditions ie a wet set up for wet driving and a dry set up for dry driving.

Watching the pros at Goodwood Revival makes me wonder, as in the older machinery there, on tyres similar or the same as mine, they seem to be sliding them round most of the quick corners ie Madgewick, Lavant and Woodcote. I know I can never be at their level of competence but if my style of driving should be more similar between wet and dry driving ie guaged by how I work the steering wheel, then I think there is a whole load of speed left in my car for venues like Goodwood which I have yet to fathom just by carrying more speed through the corner.

Be interested to have your views.

 

[Howard Jones]

When I was a young man I used to race bikes and I found the best way to lower lap times was to closely follow a faster rider as he worked up to speed. I had a close friend that was always faster than I but we would go out in practice and with him in front he would wait until I would pull along side and then just pick up the speed a little more until I came along side again and then he would pick it up another bit.

I really learned a lot this way as you can clearly see that a given line will hold a given speed. This works best with bikes that have very similar grip and power. I am sure this will work with cars as long as the car you are chasing has pretty much the same corner grip.

Have someone who is faster than you AND you know will help you out drive your car so that they will know how much grip it has in relation to his. Then just go out together and follow him as he works up to speed. Pretty soon you will be turning lap times much faster than you would ever have done if left to youself without a reference.

One other thing. If you can, record EVEY lap time you ever run on a closed track. Have the wife run the watch for you and put all the days data in a log book. Record tire pressure, track temp, gears, spring rates, rollbar settings, etc, for each run of the day.

It also helps to record your thoughts as to what you may have done to improve your driving, changing your line through a given corner or using a given braking sign etc. Then when you go back to the same track again you will have a nice baseline setup to begin with. This sort of stuff is really fun to look at later over a beer. And reviewing it all later will really put the day into focus for you.

 

[Steve Toner]

Skip Barber includes discussion of wet driving in his racing school. I took a week-long course at Sears Point once, and it rained all week so we got to live it. Basically, the physics are the same and you're still looking for maximum grip to find the fastest way around the course. BUT you will find that (especially on heavily-used tracks like Sears Point) the level of grip is actually lower on the normal racing line. This is because the track gets "polished" if you will by cars following the line and wearing down the pavement, laying down oil, etc... So you will find that you can get around the track faster by modifying your line. Going round the outside of a turn, something you'd never do in the dry because that's where all the marbles collect and lower dry traction, will actually get you through the turn faster than trying to drive the proper racing line (this is demonstrated with a radar gun in the Skip Barber Going Faster! video). Also, because the normal line is slick, you have to be careful when you cross it - you will notice much more variance in grip than in the dry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif The safest way to do it is to cross the dry line at a right angle to minimize the twitchiness and tendency to spin when the rear wheels get on that slick pavement.

 

[Malcolm]

Don't disagree with anything said so far, but should I as a driver get the same feedback from the car in the wet or dry, just at different speeds? Watching the cars at Goodwood again today, the drivers all seemed to be sawing at the wheel making their desired adjustments, with some cars just on opposite lock from the start to the end of Lavant, yet still front running. I guess from this that the answer must be close to yes?

After watching the cars race today, I am just itching to have another go on track.

 

[Dan W]

Steve is right about the "polished " tracks, Drive off line.
Another biggie, and its especially important to high horsepower cars , is easy on the throttle, brakes ease into them , and be super smooth at the wheel. Do not upset the chassis and man power the car . Soften bars and dampening to help keep the grip.

 

[Dan W]

oops, i should have said : in the wet for the above driving habits, but really smoothness is a good thing to have either way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif When Ive taken part as a instructor in a drivers school with sports cars, many people are amazed at how little you can turn the wheel, and how fast you can go through a road course. Over driving and going too deep lead to way too much sawing of the wheel and slower lap times.
Be smooth and confident, the ladies like it that way too,, haha /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[James]

Malc,

You know how you need to ask.

Tiff Needel, the "MASTER". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Did you see him take the Maca round Goodwood?

He had that sideways through every corner. Obviously he was taking things to the extreme.

In my own experience its slightly harder to control sideways drift in the wet. The flys faster.

In the dry I find it easier to control.

Found all this out in my old M coupe, cost me a set of tyres but gave some valuable experience with regard to drifting and what to expect.

It goes without saying that the only safe way to explore what is possible is to try it on a big air strip. Get up to 100 mph or so and give it full death with the sterring wheel.

Regards,

J.P

P.S Malc you crafty git, I see Wendy has a 3.5 sec handicap! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Ken Mason]

I've done a fair bit of karting over the years which I think is great for teaching you how to drive anything fast on a circuit. Obviously sliding in the dry involves a bit more balls than in the wet because you are going that much faster and the desire not to crunch that lovely '40 comes into effect. In the wet you can practice your technique at catching a slide at much lower speeds which makes it a lot easier. On some cars, not all of them, the breakaway is much softer in the wet too and also tyre choice is a major factor. For instance in the karts I drive the difference between Bridgestone and Dunlop slicks is like night and day. The Dunlops are quicker but the breakaway is viscious and they are very tiring after a while (I do endurance races with my sons as a team).
Personally I like driving in the wet best of all as it feels a bit more skilfull than the balls out qualifying lap in the dry. Also as I get older I get slower on a dry track but my wily ways at finding grip help me pick up places when its pouring....

 

[Ian Anderson]

"Sliding" a car through a corner is great when you get it right BUT get it wrong and the result is normally a trip backwards into som kitty litter or something even harder!

To assist with balance on the car an old trick is to increase the amount of travel on your accellerator pedal, this allows a greater amount of travel to obtain the "balance" for the power slide and gets further away from the "all or nothing" type accelerator.

Ian

 

[ChrisL]

Keep in mind also that the characteristics of a mid-engined car are quite different to that of a front-engined car. A properly set up mid-engined track car (I emphasize properly) will actually create over steer if driven it at nine tenths.

The quickest way around a corner with a mid-engined car is to enter the corner a little faster than this “over steer” speed, so that you promote slight under steer, then power it through the corner, thus promoting a counter-balancing slight over steer... then with gentle movements of the throttle and steering wheel you can hold this balance through the apex. Come in too hot and the extra power will just promote more under steer. Come I too cold and the extra power will create a bucket-load of over steer.

This technique is actually quite different to that used to balance pure over steer and is much more difficult to achieve. In general, it goes against all instincts and first-timers should only try it where there is plenty of run-off area.

Incidentally, this was a technique that I used on my Toyota MR2, but yet to try it on my GT40.

 

[Mark Worthington]

Hi Malc,

I suggest you read chapter 15 of Carroll Smith's Tune To Win. In this chapter he tells us the difference in setting a car up for wet vs dry tracks. I'll attampt to grossly summarize:

Wet tracks are, by definition, slippery. Therefore, load transfer in all directions is lessened. Because of the reduced load transfer values, a car that is set up for dry conditions will have too much front brake bias, too much damping, too much roll stiffness, and too high ride rates in the wet. Now, in your situation, where your car feels better set up in the wet than in the dry, we can conclude that your "dry" setup is not taking advantage of the available load transfer and should be tuned to include one or more of the following:

<ul type="square">[*] More front brake bias.
[*] Firmer springs and shocks.
[*] Larger anti-roll bars.
[/list]

Good luck.

 

[Ron Earp]

I'm probably missing something but with my limited track experience in carts and cars, when I was sliding I was slow. By definition, if the car is sliding the tires don't have good traction and you can't apply as much power. Never been to a driving school where drifting was taught as the fast line. But, again, I don't have as much experience as you guys.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

According to Malc (and a few others) - I sometimes drift Roy's 40 through the fast right hander at Lydden. It does'nt feel like it inside the car and I certainly do not consider myself 'experienced' or 'professional'. I do think however that some of the drifting at the revival meeting Malc refers to is down to:

a) the control Dunlop treaded tyres all were using.
b) a certain amount of 'show-boating'
c) most(not all) of the drifting cars were front engine - RWD - try it to the same extent in a 40 and 'BEWARE'....

 

[Howard Jones]

The thing that always impressed me about REALLY fast people is how slow they look like they are going and how out of control the people who are trying to catch them look.

Kenny Roberts, Mario, Rick Mears, Sir Jacky Steward, Nicky Lauda, etc.

Slideing the car around will not improve lap times, period.
Just like smoking the tires at the drags will not lower ET's

Looks cool though! The teenage blond chicks like it! oh oh aah aahh!!! aint that cool kimmy! said britney, as she jumped up and down and her boob bounced out of her tube top.

Drive your car like you would ride a 150 hp motorcycle. Ease on the power and apply the brakes in a progressive manner. Then work up to the limmit that the tires can handle. After that you can simply try to get to the tire grip limmit quicker without exceeding it.

Sounds easy right. It is.... for Mario.

 

[James]

It goes without saying that you should always be on the limit. i.e the point at which the tyre provides most grip, and not beyond. Unless of course, like Howard says, you like a big pair tits bouncing in your face!!

 

[Malcolm]

I think this will be one discussion where there will not be total agreement depending on your point of view and the vehicle you are thinking of. Modern cars on modern tyres means sideways is slower. Older cars on old rubber and sideways is more relvant to a fast lap time. It is a matter of degree.

I am not wanting to be totally sideways, I am wanting to be at a limit where I am balancing on or near the edge with a slide not far away. Acheiving this is another matter.

From our pub discussion last night the mechanics of grip were discussed. In the wet these are different to in the dry according to a book read by Julian. Therefore the feel of the car will be different particluarly after a correction has been made.

I saw enough famous names winning and front running at Goodwood and being in old cars you could see how they were working. They were correcting slides quite frequently and being on similar tyres but not at a simialr skill level, I think I have worked out my own answer to my original question but have a way to go to get there.

Just as an aside, the red and white Corvette in the one hour TT celebartion race at Goodwood was grounded at the driver change over after 40 minutes as his rear tyres were showing canvas. He had been smoking them through Lavant every lap. They didn't have any spare wheels so stayed in the pits. But they had been leading comfortably at the time.

However cf to the Formula one cars of the same period and you didn't see nearly as many slides. The cars are lighter and the grip to weight ratio is higher than on the sports cars.

So drive at your own limits and find the fastest way round within your own skill limits, using (safe?) experiments to find out which way is quickest.

 

The hell with the tyres, I think we should study this "bouncing" business in greater detail.......

 

[Ken Mason]

Ron's right - it IS slower on a lap if you are sliding, any oversteer or understeer means you are later getting drive out of the corner and down the next straight. Best way, if you have to slide, is a controlled four wheel drift through the apex so the car is pointing down the next straight as early as possible THEN you can get on the gas.

All cars are different, as has been said, for instance one of my cars is a Peugeot 205 GTi pocket rocket which is stunningly quick down a bumpy country road. But it is front wheel drive and therefore understeers. But the secret weapon built in by Peugeot is absolutely massive lift-off oversteer. So in this case going into a corner too hot and lifting off will balance the understeer and get it pointing in the right direction. Its all a question of balance and that's what the best drivers/ riders have. Watching Valentino Rossi drifting his Yamaha last weekend - that's balance....

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Talk of the Devil -

The Corvette Malcolm refers to exiting Madgewick.

I wonder how easy it is to drift on three wheels? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Dan W]

That would be a 1963 coupe Corvette. Wonder if he was still running the 4 wheel drums ? 4 wheel disk didnt appear till 65.I owned a original 63 for 12 yrs, good cars.