Edelbrock / Ford Racing Track Use Water Pump Problems

[Kevin Box]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Jac

Maybe if you have one of the old style cast impellers around it would be a good idea to get some cast. Then for those more industrious guys they could do the final machining and press them on to one the new style pump shafts.
Maybe they could be done on cast stainless ????
I am going to have to address this shortly so I'd take a couple or if you could get an old style impeller to me maybe I could get some cast.

If that is still not possible I will probably look at CNC version. It's not such a difficult shape after all

As per the previous threads on this I still think slowing the pumps down a bit will help also.

cheers Kevin B

 

[Kevin Box]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Gents

Check this out

Ford Racing Performance Parts

I think this is the one maybe you should be using

I think the whole pump was available as a kit (will try to get numbers)

Ford Motorsport water pump assy kit
M-8564-A351 (shaft/bearing/flange)
M-8512-A302 impeller
M-8505-B331 Main Pump Body

As Jac pointed out the correct part will actually do the job.

From what I found on the internet the Body and Shaft are still available from Summit or Jegs
Haven't found the Impeller yet.






cheers Kevin B


:thumbsup:

 

[Jac Mac]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Howard, the only thing 60+ years here old is me!, or have you got a sidevalve in Betty?... but yes I have a couple of the early 221/260/289 pumps, plus a couple of FE pumps as well!!

Kevin, PM me your postal/shipping address & I will send you a couple of old cast impellors to take patterns off.

You know it was once possible to buy the seal, bearing & impellor as a kit or seperately, might even still be possible in some of the older established ford dealerships, after all the rebuilders have to get the seal & bearing from somewhere.

Really, if your going to do it properly you need to make a new pump housing as well, plus a replica of the early 289 timing cover as very few if any original pump housings or covers have survived the corrosion & cavitation effects.

I tend to assume stuff like the speed reduction is something everyone knows about, The TVR runs a 4" crank pulley & about 7" W.P. pulley, cant remember what brand, runs to 7800 or thereabouts...

Edit, Kevin, you should have read the fine print, ...NO Longer Available

 

[Kevin Box]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Mustangs Unlimited list the Impeller for $34 US so i have ordered one to see if it is actually real.

They also list a pump which sounds like it has a proper impeller

Mustangs Unlimited - The Premier Source for Mustang, Shelby and Cougar Parts and Accessories

MAXIMUM FLOW 302/351W ALUMINUM WATER PUMP M-8501-F351 - has a CNC impeller

Cheers Kevin B

PS Jac - I am coming over to NZ for SKope Classic so maybe could get them off you then

 

[EGLITOM]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Using this pump (Explorer timing cover) on my engine

Ford Racing M-8501-A50 - Ford Racing Serpentine Belt Short Water Pump Conversion Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com

I went from a 1:1 drive to a 1 : 1,2 underdriven Ratio ( reduced crank pulley from 100mm diameter to 80mm.
Saw a clear improvement in cooling due to that slower speed. Currently think about to increase the WP pulley by another 10% ( go to 110m instead of 100mm).
By doing so i would like to pull the pump to check it out.
Casting the impellers would be to much effort in my opinion. THis is a part which lends himself for manufacturing on a CNC lathe with driven tools. Machine it from a 7075 aluminium, have it anodized ( hardcoated) and press it on the shaft with the support of a machined key. Done

Jac my adress is
Thomas Schwab
am Gries 10
83561 Ramerberg
Germany

if you could send me one original cast impeller, i could make a drawing for counterclockwise and clockwise rotation and than start CNC manufacturing them.
Should not be a big deal.

THanks
TOM

 

[Scott Calabro]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

The MiraKool M-16 Impeller system | FlowKooler Automobile Water Pumps - Chevy, Dodge, Jeep, Ford, and more

 

[Tom]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Scott,

I think those impellors would suffer even more cavitation, unless you radically slowed down the pump. They are made for low RPM use according to the website.

Tom

 

[Scott Calabro]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Scott,

I think those impellors would suffer even more cavitation, unless you radically slowed down the pump. They are made for low RPM use according to the website.

Tom

Yes at very high engine speeds with restrictive system plumbing, but...

ELGITOM wants to underdrive his pump and this will produce less coolant GPH moving through the system at any given speed, so he will need to do one of two things or both;

Decrease the resistance to flow in his entire cooling system.

Increase the pump output, which is what that impeller will do at any given speed until it cavitates (as any impeller eventually will).

The best way to do this on a road car is to have the most GPH flow possible. I would do this by increasing pump speed (overdriven) and decreasing resistance to flow by a properly developed system.

The simple fact is that the more coolant that moves past the engine, the more heat will be taken away to the radiator.

 

[Jac Mac]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Everyone seems to be forgetting that we have a thermostat or restrictor , this helps to increase the pressure within the block/cylinder heads as it uses the pump pressure increase to raise the pressure in those areas, its quite interesting to fit several pressure gauges at various points in the cooling system & see the difference, I remember when we were trying to sort out another 'Ford' cockup on the MKIV V6 Zephyr/Zodiacs ~1966, pressure @ rear of block was up around 38 psi with a 15 lb radiator cap.

 

[David]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Yes at very high engine speeds with restrictive system plumbing, but...

ELGITOM wants to underdrive his pump and this will produce less coolant GPH moving through the system at any given speed, so he will need to do one of two things or both;

Decrease the resistance to flow in his entire cooling system.

Increase the pump output, which is what that impeller will do at any given speed until it cavitates (as any impeller eventually will).

The best way to do this on a road car is to have the most GPH flow possible. I would do this by increasing pump speed (overdriven) and decreasing resistance to flow by a properly developed system.

The simple fact is that the more coolant that moves past the engine, the more heat will be taken away to the radiator.

Yes....*but* any engine speed dependent pump is a compromise, its either going to be under-driven at low speed (not enough flow) or over-driven at high speed (cavitation).

Certainly taking a 'road' engine to then be used mostly on the track I'd seriously consider under-driving the water pump or converting to an electric pump. The risk with under-driving it is that you run a very real risk of overheating at tickover / slow traffic.

 

[EGLITOM]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Yes at very high engine speeds with restrictive system plumbing, but...

ELGITOM wants to underdrive his pump and this will produce less coolant GPH moving through the system at any given speed, so he will need to do one of two things or both;

Decrease the resistance to flow in his entire cooling system.

Increase the pump output, which is what that impeller will do at any given speed until it cavitates (as any impeller eventually will).

The best way to do this on a road car is to have the most GPH flow possible. I would do this by increasing pump speed (overdriven) and decreasing resistance to flow by a properly developed system.

The simple fact is that the more coolant that moves past the engine, the more heat will be taken away to the radiator.

Sorry to say so, but that is defenitely wrong.

If it would be that simple noone would have an issue. Unfortunately the typical more is better attitude is not working here.







With increasing the RPM of the pump:

• NPSH required increase as well, but NPSH available ( in front of the pump) decreases , because with increasing pump speed the pressure capablities decreases. As we have a closed system, NPSH available is strictly related to the pump pressure created minus the pressure losses and coolant properties
• 
• Sorry that the graph is in german:
• Förderhöhe =pump pressure
• Wellenleistung = power needed for driving the pump
• Wirkungsgrad= efficiency

So it is a matter of finding the optimum working point of the pump in a given installation configuration. May be your system is much better than all others build, but i doubt, because the main restrictive components ( engine, radiator, thermostat) are the same.

on another note, heat exchangers loose efficiency the higher the volume is passing trough them (because the air flow at a given speed can be seen as a constant) and they are the more efficient the higher the temperatur difference is. So may be running less is more

Now we basically have to heat exchangers in our system of which both should work at optimum effciency =>taking away heat from the engine as good as possible and giving it to the air also as good as possible.
Again this is a question of the optimum flowrate, which much likely is not the highest one achievable with the pump.


I don´t will underdrive my pump , i did it already by 20% and it improved cooling significant. Don´t have any issue in heavy traffic as well. Of course it depends on your engines most working rpm range. My engine can be revved up to 7800 RPM if which i only have used up to now the max of 7200. but when driving the car i´m using this rpm limit pretty often, permanently driving the car inbetween 4000 - 7200 RPM

may be in a TORNADO it is different , because the "Tornado" is creating a higher air velocity)

TOM

 

[Scott Calabro]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Sorry to say so, but that is defenitely wrong.

If it would be that simple noone would have an issue. Unfortunately the typical more is better attitude is not working here.




Lets just agree to disagree then Tom.

My Edelbrock pump is slightly overdriven and I have never overheated, ever. I run a robertshaw high flow 180 thermostat and there are 5 or 6 (IIRC) sharp 90 deg turns in the system.

I'll go with pumping more coolant rather than less through the engine anytime.

Perhaps your engine has to work much harder to move your rcr than mine does

 

[EGLITOM]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Scott

If you would have dared to read what i wrote, i clearly point out that it revs higher than a standard engine and therefore underdriving the waterpump is required.
Thread was intiated by HOward who regulary drives his car on the track and there revving it constantly in an higher range which a car only drivven to shows would not see that often.

TOM

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Scott

If you would have dared to read what i wrote, i clearly point out that it revs higher than a standard engine and therefore underdriving the waterpump is required.
Thread was intiated by HOward who regulary drives his car on the track and there revving it constantly in an higher range which a car only drivven to shows would not see that often.

TOM

Agree with that.

It might take a good while for the failure to show up. Our impeller didn't separate until about 30 hours of track use, or thereabouts. I doubt it would ever have separated if only used on the street and only run for occasional blasts in a few gears to redline.

Good info on these two water pump threads. If the authors don't mind we'll combine them, give them a more descriptive title, and put them back in the cooling tech area.

Ron

 

[Jac Mac]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

As long as RCR & Tornado are in the GT40 Replica business I suspect there will always be a bit of cavitation to be dealt with, the least we can do is attempt to find an impellor that will work for both CW & CCW rotation in either application, the more efficient the impellor the less likelihood of introducing air pockets & 'hot spots' within the blockheads.....( oop's ,sorry,should have been a fwd slash in there somewhere..

 

[EGLITOM]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Good info on these two water pump threads. If the authors don't mind we'll combine them, give them a more descriptive title, and put them back in the cooling tech area.

Ron

Fine with me

TOM

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Tom ...perfect....

Also I recommend the interested reader to buy Hot Rod Issue January 2012
Contains very nice written two pages about the relationship between cooling, Powerloss, under drive and High AMP Alternators...as said a small article but very nice to read ....Interessting to read that your mechanical pumps with no under drive are sucking around 5-6 HP ....I didn't expect it to be that much

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Do you know what they do, tighter interference fit, keyed, pin the shaft, something else?

Which pump stage 1,2,3? My car needs the short snout, passenger side inlet. Do you know a part# for that? Or better yet who should I talk with at Stewart?

As promised here is what I learned.

I (and Jeff G who is also building a V6 stang) spoke with Kevin at Stewart (he's listed on their website) and he is the engineer/machinist that is going to work on our Ford V6 pumps. In a nutshell:

*They dislike Ford's pumps and front dress designs with the exception of all the new motors (mod motor, Coyote, etc.) that use cartridge style pumps

*There is no real fix for stamped steel impellers other than to replace them. They will fail eventually. You can delay that failure by greatly reducing their rotational speed, but 5k and greater spells trouble for these designs.

*Scroll type impellers certainly will last a long time, but nothing lasts forever. Consistently spin it at 6000 RPM and it will fail eventually.

They are putting one of their billet impellers in the stock V6 pump cavity and pinning it to the shaft. New bearings, seals, and all that jazz and it is suspected that it'll last indefinitely as our motor will only turn to around 5600-5800 tops and we're about a 2/3 ratio on pump speed, so a pump speed of around 4000 tops and that is only for short periods. The pump will pump water more efficiently, and more of it, so we're going to see about using a 50% drive if we can fit the pulleys to pull that off.

In retrospect the Lola isn't underdriven enough. Without measurements I suspect it is around 80% crank speed and that is clearly too high for a water pump if the engine is turning ~6000 RPM. There is a lot of stress on the impeller if it is spinning at crank speed, or slightly below it.

So, my take home message from this was mechanical pumps can get the job done. Indeed, before the pump failure the Lola never ran above 195F, even with 105F degree track days, and it cooled extremely well. But for best longevity the pumps have to be designed correctly and used under the proper operational conditions, i.e., correct RPM range. A pump designed to cool on 105F days in traffic, at street speeds, as any modern OEM pump on a modern car is designed to do, is probably not going to work very well for a racing application.

 

[Howard Jones]

Ron, Thank you very much for the information. Do you know if they would rebuild one of my Edenbrock pumps with the "pinned" impeller? If you are not sure I'll call them myself.

So I am running it too fast. I was beginning to think I was and wondering about this as a future solution. I think 4000 revs is a good pump RPM max and I'll find a pulley and make it so.

Also I will need to completely rethink my pump setup on my SLC. At least underdrive it at 50%. The 500Hp SBC in it is limmited at 7000 RPM. Looks like there might be a electric pump is in it's future.

This is becomming a very valuable thread. Maybe combine both the theory one, this one, and a good one about proper bleeding in the end and make them sticky. Most of the cooling questions in GT40s would be addressed in one place.

 

[Mike Huddart]

Howard,
in past experience, the SBC doesn't seem to raise the same cooling problems as Fords. We have run some fairly ropey old Lolas and such and whatever pump/ drive combination you have, seems to work OK.The accepted norm for drive ratio when using a Gimer belt is a 28 tooth WP pulley and 17 tooth crank, only because this is the handiest combo for belt length / availability, it gives about a 40 % reduction.
Mike