Edelbrock / Ford Racing Track Use Water Pump Problems

[(C)arlos]

Guys, just for the funny part of it ...BTW I would be very surprised if there will be reaction


From: Carlos Heller <carlos@xxxxxx>
Subject: Customer Complains in a public forum
Date: January 6, 2012 7:45:53 PM GMT+01:00
To: [email protected]


To whom it may concern,

please follow this link to a public discussion about the quality of your product.
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...ord-racing-track-use-water-pump-problems.html

We all on the GT40 forum would appreciate a statement from you to discuss the weak spots that have been found on your products.

Cheers
Carlos Heller
--
The early bird get's the worm, but the second mouse get's the cheese

 

[Jac Mac]

I was having a look @ all the info on the Stewart site, couple of interesting things...
1. The basic Stewart pump for a SBC @ 4500 rpm was capable of flowing around 130gallons per min
2. Same pump @ around 7000+rpm was capable of flowing close to 180gpm.
3.For Chev/Dodge Nascar type stuff they have a cartridge style pump that bolts into a scrolled front entry housing that has balanced L/R flow rates.
4.Found a chart that gave the flow rates for all RPM yesterday, but cant find it today, but I think the rate @ lower RPM [~1500/2000] was around 37gpm

 

[Scott Calabro]

I remember this pump used to be on the Stewart website , but now I cant find it.

Maybe they dont make it anymore?

CNC-Motorsports.com is your resource for High Quality, Hi-Performance auto parts from industry names you trust. Stewart Pro Series water pump, Ford Windsor nascar pump

 

[Scott Calabro]

This setup also uses a cartridge style pump and is very short.

Snow White Ltd. - Street Rod Parts & Mfg.

And the long discontinued (Ford) short pulleys are available here.

Small Block Ford Pulleys 289, 302, 351W, 351C

 

[Howard Jones]

I did call Steward and talked to a very nice man about my issue. They do not currently make a short nose, conventional flow direction, passenger side inlet SBF pump. They were willing to have a look at my Edelbrock pump and see if they could fit their internals into it.

I also discused my current setup with him and reached the conclusion that I should underdrive the pump so as to not exceed 4000 impeller RPMs. That's about 60-70% of crank speed for me.

So I left it at when I get my pump out of the car I'll UPS it to them and let them look at it. In the mean time I'm looking for a WP pulley to work with my current front dress and underdrive the pump at about 2/3 crank speed.

I'll update this thread when I have the pump out of the car and information back from Steward. In the end I'll post part numbers for the pullys and such along with pictures.

Very good information on this issue in these threads concerning WP's in mid engine cars.

 

[Howard Jones]

I finally got to a point in my SLC build where I could put it aside for a while and move my GT40 into the center of my garage, put it up on jack stands, and pull the water pump. Here's what I found.

The impeller had indeed spun on the shaft again. As I really looked at it I found that the latest version of this pump has a steel impeller that looks to be CNC machined. The first two pumps had a cast iron impeller. The first two pictures are of one of two of the original pumps and the second two are the newer version with a steel impeller.

You can see where I tried (and failed) to weld the impeller to the shaft on the first one. I am not able to weld iron to steel. I am sure somebody can but it's not me. I elected to not use it and bought the third pump. As you can see from the second two pictures the steel impeller welded nicely to the shaft. So for now I'll call that fixed. It should be noted that if you do this, the pump cannot be rebuilt. There is now, with the impeller welded to the shaft, no way to get the shaft free and replace the bearing and seal.

With the mechanical problem solved I then tried to figure out what the real problem was. The bottom line is I was turning the pump far too fast. The original pulley set was running the pump at 105% of crank speed. I believe this caused cavitation and the shock worked the impeller loose from the shaft. I needed to reduce the impeller speed to as near 2/3's crank speed as possible to keep it below 4000RPM with a engine red-line of 6K. In the end I came away with a 7 inch pulley to replace the 5 1/2 inch water-pump pulley I had at first. This should work out to about 70% of crank speed so if I run the motor on track between 3500 - 5800 I should be OK. This is the best power range with my motor anyway.

I looked high and low for a bigger pulley to put on the pump. I didn't want to replace the crank pulley for several reasons including the necessity of a complete rework of the front dress brackets and such along with the fact that the internals of the motor were balanced with the crank pulley included.

No joy on finding a new pulley that was the right diameter and the correct off set. What would Jac do? Make one......right! So here's what I did. I bought a steel pulley from Summit Racing for about 15 Bucks and cut it down the the correct offset. The new center is made from .10" steel and centered on the now cut down and headless pulley. Then I welded it back together, replaced the belt and ...........now I am a fledgling sheep rancher.

The next few pictures are of the original pulley setup and then the bigger (blue) pulley setup.

The last two are the chrome pulley that I cut down and then the finished short offset (blue) pulley. I will need to return this one I bought two in case I frigged the first one up.

I ran the motor and the new pulley seams damn near square and round. So I think I will be OK.

As a post script I think that the Edelbrock pump is ok if used on a streetcar that runs at street range RPMS most of the time. If you are doing a lot of track time then you will need to think of something else. The best bet is more than likely a electric pump that can be run at a constant speed. Gee, didn't some one suggest that?

 

[Randy V]

Hopefully this puts all your problems behind you..

RE: Welding iron to steel
It can be done using nickle based filler... However, I think i would have drilled a hole lengthwise into the shaft and the impellor, creating a keyway, then inserting a roll-pin into place. That would lock them together and tpyou wouldnt have to take a chance in compromising the seals or bearings with all the heat it would take to weld it..

 

[Howard Jones]

I submerged the pump in water up to the impeller and then welded it. The seal and bearing remained cool. Tig welding a small part like this doesn't heat things up too much if you're careful.

 

[Jack]

Good job Howard. I like the "If I can't find it, I'll make it". attitude!
Made a $200.00 bracket myself today (if time is included). After fixing my big
metal cutting band saw (bearings) and my drill press(switch). Bummer...

 

[Howard Jones]

I took Betty out for a run Sunday. Went for about 2 hours including a solid 30 min run through my favorite canyon (most above 4K revs) and all seams well. I think it runs cooler, especially at the higher end of the rev range. No leaks and no funny noise. I think it is fixed.

I will report again after a full track weekend at Willow Springs in May.

 

[Howard Jones]

Final report on this. I ran Betty at Willow Springs last weekend. Total of 8, 25 min sessions over both days. Thats about 150 miles all together. Air temp was 90F at 9 am up to about 105F at 3PM.

Everybody ran hot. Several people I asked said their cars were above 200F water temp that normally ran at 180 or about there.

My water temps were, starting at about 130F leaving the pit lane, usually around 200F by lap 3 and up to 220 by lap 6. Didn't go higher lap 7-8 or 9.

Oil temps remained at 200F-220F all day. Grearbox temps were below 180F all day (never run pump on GEBX).

No issues with my home made pulley/belt system. Seams fine upon inspection.

Track temps were very high. Above 140F. Putting my hand out open door in pit lane felt like a oven door opened. I am sure this effects the low radiator air inlet on a GT40 more than a Mustang type car.

All in all, this is about all that can be done with a belt driven system. If I was building a car now I would put an electric pump in it. Since I already have a conventional belt/pulley pump in my SLC I will leave it for now. At the first sign of trouble with it, it will get a rework to electric pump.

Conclusion; I was turning the pump too fast @ about 100% engine speed, and cavitation shock caused pump shaft/ impeller failure. On track, engine ran above 4K most of the lap. Impeller speed should be limmited to 4K RPMs max. Select your pulleys to this goal when doing it the first time.

Sorry (a bit) for bad Edelbrock press. (I still think the impeller should be more than pressed on the shaft however.) The new type steel CNC impeller is better than the first two cast iron ones. Positive feedback to Edenbrock on that.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

They are putting one of their billet impellers in the stock V6 pump cavity and pinning it to the shaft. New bearings, seals, and all that jazz and it is suspected that it'll last indefinitely as our motor will only turn to around 5600-5800 tops and we're about a 2/3 ratio on pump speed, so a pump speed of around 4000 tops and that is only for short periods. The pump will pump water more efficiently, and more of it, so we're going to see about using a 50% drive if we can fit the pulleys to pull that off.

And, just as a followup for what we had Stuart do, put a billet impeller on a stock water pump shaft, it worked great.

We recently had the Mustang up at VIR for a test day and had no issues at all. Outside temps were about 83F and we're using the stock plastic Mustang radiator due to weight concerns (plus they're durable too!). We have a 180F thermostat and the motor was pinned on 180F all day. Never moved. Very pleased with what Stuart did for us and the same trick can be done with any Ford or Chevy pump.

Ron

 

[Howard Jones]

Final report on this. I ran Betty at Willow Springs last weekend. Total of 8, 25 min sessions over both days. Thats about 150 miles all together. Air temp was 90F at 9 am up to about 105F at 3PM.

Everybody ran hot. Several people I asked said their cars were above 200F water temp that normally ran at 180 or about there.

My water temps were, starting at about 130F leaving the pit lane, usually around 200F by lap 3 and up to 220 by lap 6. Didn't go higher lap 7-8 or 9.

Oil temps remained at 200F-220F all day. Grearbox temps were below 180F all day (never run pump on GEBX).

No issues with my home made pulley/belt system. Seams fine upon inspection.

Track temps were very high. Above 140F. Putting my hand out open door in pit lane felt like a oven door opened. I am sure this effects the low radiator air inlet on a GT40 more than a Mustang type car.

All in all, this is about all that can be done with a belt driven system. If I was building a car now I would put an electric pump in it. Since I already have a conventional belt/pulley pump in my SLC I will leave it for now. At the first sign of trouble with it, it will get a rework to electric pump.

Conclusion; I was turning the pump to fast @ about 100% engine speed, and cavitation shock caused pump shaft/ impeller failure. On track, engine ran above 4K most of the lap. Impeller speed should be limmited to 4K RPMs max. Select your pulleys to this goal when doing it the first time.

Sorry for bad Edelbrock press. (I still think the impeller should be more than pressed on the shaft however.)

 

[Howard Jones]

Delete the dupication, sorry. If stewart did a passenger side inlet, short snout, alum pump we, GT40 people, would be right in the money. For the street I think the Edelbrock pump would be fine. And for a track car I think either send the new Edenbrock pump to Steward for modification or run a electric pump.

Either way I think we have solved the problem.

Thaks Ron.