Edelbrock / Ford Racing Track Use Water Pump Problems

Howard Jones

Supporter
Second one spun the impeller on the shaft. DO NOT BUY EDELBROCK ALUM WATERPUMPS.

This kind of stuff just pisses me off. I don't rev my motor above 6K and usually shift at about 5500. That's two pumps in about 15000 miles with about 20 track days at about 3000 miles at the track total.

I would say that each was good for about half of the total run time.

Pump in question Edelbrock # 8842

Alum Victor Series short R/H inlet 5/8" shaft BLA BLA BLA.

If you have one WATCH you temp gauge!!! Better yet take it out and pitch it in the garbage!!!!!

Got home OK, no other damage. But here's goes a wasted weekend and a couple of hundred dollars.

I'm going to look at Stewart pumps. Anybody know what works for a RACE pump.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Same for the Ford pumps with the stamped impeller as shown from our 13 hour results.

We're building two new SCCA Mustangs with 3.8L V6s. I'm sending water pumps to Stewart to see if they can fit one of their impellers to it and make it bullet proof. They offer complete 302 pumps in this configuration already and if the Lola races again it'll be wearing one.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Ron, You and I have the exact same performance requirement. It's gotta last. I really don't care about saving a couple of pounds or a HP or two. I don't want anymore failures. Do you know what they (Stewart) do to keep the impeller on the shaft? I was thinking machining a key-way in the shaft and impeller and keying them both. Big deal to fix a F'ed up pump. Do you know what they do, tighter interference fit, keyed, pin the shaft, something else?

Which pump stage 1,2,3? My car needs the short snout, passenger side inlet. Do you know a part# for that? Or better yet who should I talk with at Stewart?
 

Trevor Booth

Lifetime Supporter
Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Howard,
for many years I have put a scotch key in water pump impellors, never trust them to not spin at some time , it happened to me once , but never again!!
 
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

I use an Edelbrock 8833 on the GT40 and did use a 8816 in my Cobra...I don't do track days but push both cars hard if street permits.....Fr instance I drove the GT40 on the Highway from Cologne to Frankfurt ( 250km) with an average of 180km/h (111 mils/h) constantly for nearly 2/3 of the total distance which is a lot if you have a UN1-Gerabox :) they never disappointed me or failed...I invested a lot of time to adjust pulleys and belt and so on using Micro-Slim Washers and pre working them on my lathe
Today in my frame of restored Cobra I am using a Mezire electrical Pump, but the car is not back on the street yet so no experience with it....The advantage of an electrical pump is the constant high water flow during stop and go traffic on low engine REVs....
Did you use a special Pully set ?
You can easily spin the pump above specs if you are not careful ...So 6000 rpm's on the engine doesn't mean 6000 on the pump if you use the wrong set...
Also the Anti-Freeze_Water Mixture has some great influence on the work the pump has to do ....the liquid can become quite pasty....and the pump must work against it ..and that force goes over the shaft ...
 
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Dimi Terleckyj

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Hi all

I have always found the best way for me to stop the impeller slipping is a couple of spot welds impeller to shaft.

No more spinning on the shaft.

Dimi
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Ron, You and I have the exact same performance requirement. It's gotta last. I really don't care about saving a couple of pounds or a HP or two. I don't want anymore failures. Do you know what they (Stewart) do to keep the impeller on the shaft? I was thinking machining a key-way in the shaft and impeller and keying them both. Big deal to fix a F'ed up pump. Do you know what they do, tighter interference fit, keyed, pin the shaft, something else?

Which pump stage 1,2,3? My car needs the short snout, passenger side inlet. Do you know a part# for that? Or better yet who should I talk with at Stewart?

I don't know yet. I'll know more on Tuesday. The fellow I talked to, Kevin, is the guy that handles the engineering for oddball stuff. He's out on vacation until Tuesday. They have the pumps I sent them, but I have no word on if they can fix mine up or not. I'll ask questions about how the impeller is put on the shaft. These stamped units couldn't use a key, but the billet impellers they advertise could us a key.

They do list Ford water pumps as being available, but, you have the same short pump as the Lola does and that one is not listed. I suspect they could convert it though and I'll ask him about that too when I get him on the horn next week.

Miata race cars = never seen a pump failure. Nissan Z race car = no pump failure. TR8 = no pump failure. CAll me lucky, but I've never seen water pump failure in the paddock until mine did a couple of months ago. I've owned a lot of Ford street 302s, no failures. That shorty water pump with that stamped impeller is a POS.

Pump is underdriven so speed isn't the issue. I think the crappy impeller will experience cavitation at relatively low RPM and cause a vibration in the impeller that leads to failure. It is hard to call that thing an impeller, more like "a flat piece of steel with six folded tabs" is more accurate.

Hi all

I have always found the best way for me to stop the impeller slipping is a couple of spot welds impeller to shaft.

No more spinning on the shaft.

Dimi

That won't do it. Mine didn't just slip and come off, it sheared off at the stamping where it bends and gets pressed on the shaft. The part of the impeller that fits on the shaft is still secured attached to the shaft.
 

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Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

See my posts on this very same issue. Two Ford Racing pump failures within 1000 miles of street driving. I went with the Stewart Components pump which is heavier and certainly beefier and like Howard I just want it to work and last. It has. I admit my problems may have been compounded by poor belt alignment and tension but from what I'm reading it doesn't appear it would have made that much difference as these pumps are just not good enough for the GT 40 application or any other car for that matter. Your picture Ron is all too familiar I'm sorry to say. BTW Stewart had to machine the neck of the one I bought since I'm not sure they produce a short necked version of what we need. As stated though it has not had any effect on performance or longevity. Good Luck to you both.
 
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Second one spun the impeller on the shaft. DO NOT BUY EDELBROCK ALUM WATERPUMPS.

This kind of stuff just pisses me off. I don't rev my motor above 6K and usually shift at about 5500. That's two pumps in about 15000 miles with about 20 track days at about 3000 miles at the track total.

I would say that each was good for about half of the total run time.

Pump in question Edelbrock # 8842

Alum Victor Series short R/H inlet 5/8" shaft BLA BLA BLA.

If you have one WATCH you temp gauge!!! Better yet take it out and pitch it in the garbage!!!!!

For whatever reason, there have been chronic, repeated failures of this specific Edelbrock pump. I know of no other Edelbrock pumps that have this same self-destruct feature. A friend has a 408 Windsor in his Pantera, and he runs it hard on the track. I think he had FIVE pump failures. Unfortunately, Edelbrock is (as far as we know) the only one that makes this special shorter Windsor pump.

The solution is probably to use the Edelbrock casting and have a custom impeller made. :<(
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Alignment isn't a issue. All three pulleys are within a 1/32" of each other on the same plane and as close to square (90 degrees to the belt) as can be measured. I would go of far as to say they are perfect. It's not belt alignment. Also the one bracket that mounts the alternator is in double shear and is solid enough to lift the motor out of the car with. Nothing is flexing. If you follow my posts you know I believe in battleship building techniques. A bit heavy but it don't break.

The two pulleys under-drive the pump at about 95% of crank speed. So shifting at 5500 puts the pump speed at 5225. The rev limit for the engine is 5800 so at max speed the pump is turning 5510. That should not fail a premium high performance pump from a top of the line performance parts supplier like Edelbrock. This is not a 39 dollar Kragen piece.

I run distilled clean water. Period. I live in California and it is rare if my garage falls below 40F. If it is really cold I leave the lights on overnight. Most tracks don't want antifreeze in the car. I takes time to clean up. Time is money.

The problem is the interference fit on the shaft isn't tight enough and with time the impeller just turns. Simple but that's it. It should be splines or keyed, simple again, but they must think that it would cost too much money per unit. Fuckin bean counters again.

Welding the impeller onto the shaft would work but the impeller is made of cast iron and the shaft is a really hard tool steel. Cast iron can be welded in the book but not so much by me. I tried to weld the first one and had a little success but oped for a new unit instead. Not this time.

It is just a bad design. The thing is, the rest of the unit is nicely made. Even the impeller is a curved vane thing that looks the part. Not the stamped sheet-metal piece that screwed Ron. It's too bad really. One more step, either splines or keyed shaft and it would be fine.

When I get the piece out of the car I'll post pictures AGAIN!

Ron thanks for the info on Stewart. I'll call them next week and see what thay say. Maybe they can rework both of mine and I'll have a spare. If not I think I will look at getting the second one apart and have the shaft/impeller keyed at a local machine shop.
 
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Trevor Booth

Lifetime Supporter
Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Gary,
chuckle, chuckle

Scotck key - drill a small hole parrallel to the axis of the impellor shaft so that the hole is half into impellor and half into shaft, then drive in a pin. A roll pin is normally used.

That will not fix the problem that Ron had with failure in the body of the stamped impellor but works for a cast or fully machined impellor
 
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Howard Jones

Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Trevor, The shaft is harder than any drill bit I have. What kind of drill bit will cut hardend steel. In a word what is the best drill bit type there is? Your idea will work if I can cut the shaft material.
 
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Gentlemen,
probably way off the mark and if you think so then please ignore me, my wife does, all of the time.
I find it very strange that all you people are having the same problem with just the same part number Ede pump. I can't believe that Edelbrock make their pumps in differant ways for differant numbers.
For preferance we use a bog standard Sealed Power pump on our race engines and have never had any problems, either with failures or overheating.
However, a lot of folk really do like to see a high performance water pump with their high peformance engine so we do fit that Ede pump on a lot of our race engines. We have won a lot of long distance races and championships with that pump and never had a failure, but ALL on front engined cars, FIA Cobras, Mustangs etc
On rear engined cars, genuine and replicas, we have experienced serious cavitation problems when using Edelbrock pumps so we either underdrive them by a significant amount or fit a stock type pump, no problems.

The cavitation problem is real, we cured a VERY expensive ( not one of ours ) 351W in an Ultima, from detonating itself to death, this after the customer had spent £ thousands on dyno time ( not ours ) and several sets of pistons and two blocks, trying to cure the problem, by changing the water pump from an Ede to a stock one. It only happened when the motor was in the car and at higher revs.
We had one of our SB Fords partially sieze on # 5 cylinder with an Ede pump after the customer got the car , a De Tomaso, up to something like 140 MPH. From this we found the problem is exaggerated with aftermarket blocks, particularly SVO. We changed the pump, no more trouble

Now, allthough the cavitation in your cases is not giving any significant heating trouble, could the constant loading and unloading of the impeller be causing it to vibrate or flex in some way. Does the fact that the intake is one side or the other alter the scenario, I am not an expert on fluidics so don't know the answer but I do know that pump cavitates in some rear engined cars.

I am sure the Stewart pumps are better than the Edelbrock ones but that doesn't mean the Ede one is crap, could there be an undelying problem.
Mike
 

Trevor Booth

Lifetime Supporter
Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

Howard,
forgot that bit, you need to remove the impellor if shaft is hard, heat the area to be drilled until it goes blue (300ºC), check with a file that it has softened, then reassemble and drill with a cobalt drill or a solid carbide drill. best done in a drill press with coolant supply and dont be in a hurry,

What Mike Huddart says makes a lot of sense, when the pump is cavitating it will have stress reversal in the impellor causing progressive fracture. Personally I would not use a pressed impellor. In all the rear engined cars that I have dealt with over the years slowing down the pump has just been a natural thing.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

To be clear, my failure was not the Edelbrock pump but the Ford pump that is commonly used in hot rods and GT40s. Stamped steel "impeller", definitely a POS.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

I honestly don't know if the impeller is cavitating or not. How would I know that? What would be the symptoms? I do know that the special curved vane ultra cool impeller is supposed to NOT cavitate like a standard impeller. That's why it is at a premium price. I would tend to wonder if I was spinning it at 8000 RPMs, but less that 5500? If it can't take that, then why is it premium priced. By the way on a given lap the engine spends most of its time at 3500-5000. Street car engine speeds.

Why does the location of the engine have anything to do with the pump failure? The pump, pumps the water around the system in any case. With the exception of the longer tubing to and from the radiator everything else is the same. Would the increased length of the run cause issues? I would go so far as to say that my GT40 with it's 3.8 gals of water is pretty average as far as capacity goes.

This pump IS different from the other Edelbrock pumps in that it is a very limmited usage part number and I would expect in limmited production. The shorter neck may or may not have something to do with the problem, I just don't know. Other than the inlet being on the opposite side there isn't any other differences from the long neck driver side pump. The pump I am talking about is the only Edelbrock pump I have experience with. Maybe their other stuff is good. Who knows. I don't

I should also say that there is no cracking in my impeller. It just spins on the shaft and doesn't pump water.

By the way, what did Ford do in the 60's? After all theirs ran 24 hours. Have you seen any in-car videos on the Mulsanne back in the day? 1 min straight flat out each lap on that straight alone...........for 24 hours.

So I am not sure why what is happening is happening, but I don't think the piece is being abused outside it's design envelope.

I'll fix this, that's for sure. And when I do I'll let you all know what I did to fix it. In the mean time watch that temp gauge and keep the ideas coming. I've never had a problem that wasn't solved one way or another on this Forum. Smart people here. Smarter than me, that's for sure.
 
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Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

By the way, what did Ford do in the 60's? After all theirs ran 24 hours. Have you seen any in-car videos on the Mulsanne back in the day? 1 min straight flat out each lap on that straight alone...........for 24 hours.

So I am not sure why what is happening is happening, but I don't think the piece is being abused outside it's design envelope.
Thats because back in the early sixties most if not all water pumps had cast iron impellors with curved vanes anyway, the 'race' versions just had slightly smaller OD impellors, then you hotrodder type americano's came along & invented the aftermarket & all of a sudden OEM was a dirty word, they the OEM guys didnt sell as much so they let the bean counters in the front door & your Genuine FOMOCO parts became a shadow of their former selves, looks like you got what you wanted!!:)
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Re: Edelbrock water-pump = crap

So Jac, ya got any 60 year old water pumps about? You always have a good tried and true idea for a fix. What do you think will work and what do you think about the cavitation thing?
 
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