Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Uncle Ron will be pleased.
F1 2007
- Thread starter David Morton
- Start date
for italian speech lovers the traslation is this:FA: "You can't do things like that."
FM : "What are you talking about?"
FA: "Don't play smart with me, you know very well. You hit me on purpose, you turned the wheel to push me off."
FM : "What? Go f--k yourself!"
FA : "You f--k off! Next time I'll push you into the wall."
becomes:
FA : "non puoi fare cose così.."
FM : "ma di cosa parli scusa?"
FA: "non fare lo stronzo con me,lo sai benissimo.Mi sei venuto addosso di proposito,hai sterzato per buttarmi fuori.."
FM: "Cosa??..ma vaffanculo va..."
FA: "no..vaffanculo tu!,la prossima volta ti butto fuori io.."
and then Felipe added... "impara a guidare..IMPARA a guidare..."
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Written by Ferrari Media Thursday, 26 July 2007
Based on today’s decision of the FIA World Council:
• The Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team has been found to be in breach of article 151c of the F1 Sporting Regulations and to have therefore behaved in “a fraudulent manner and therefore in a manner prejudicial to the interests of competition or motor sport in general,”
• The World Council has nevertheless decided that, in the absence of any definite proof that information that is the property of Ferrari has been effectively used on the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes car competing in the current championship, it can impose no sanction without further evidence.
Ferrari notes that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes has been found guilty by the FIA World Council. It therefore finds it incomprehensible that violating the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not have, as a logical and inevitable consequence, the application of a sanction. Today’s decision legitimises dishonest behaviour in Formula 1 and sets a very serious precedent.
In fact, the decision of the World Council signifies that possession, knowledge at the very highest level and use of highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner and the acquiring of confidential information over the course of several months, represent violations that do not carry any punishment. The fact that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of such information was discovered totally by accident and, but for this, the team would continue to have it. This is all the more serious as it has occurred in a sport like Formula 1 in which small details make all the difference.
Ferrari feels this is highly prejudicial to the credibility of the sport. It will continue with the legal action already under way within the Italian criminal justice system and in the civil court in England.
• The Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team has been found to be in breach of article 151c of the F1 Sporting Regulations and to have therefore behaved in “a fraudulent manner and therefore in a manner prejudicial to the interests of competition or motor sport in general,”
• The World Council has nevertheless decided that, in the absence of any definite proof that information that is the property of Ferrari has been effectively used on the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes car competing in the current championship, it can impose no sanction without further evidence.
Ferrari notes that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes has been found guilty by the FIA World Council. It therefore finds it incomprehensible that violating the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not have, as a logical and inevitable consequence, the application of a sanction. Today’s decision legitimises dishonest behaviour in Formula 1 and sets a very serious precedent.
In fact, the decision of the World Council signifies that possession, knowledge at the very highest level and use of highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner and the acquiring of confidential information over the course of several months, represent violations that do not carry any punishment. The fact that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of such information was discovered totally by accident and, but for this, the team would continue to have it. This is all the more serious as it has occurred in a sport like Formula 1 in which small details make all the difference.
Ferrari feels this is highly prejudicial to the credibility of the sport. It will continue with the legal action already under way within the Italian criminal justice system and in the civil court in England.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Jeez, talk about people in glass houses, all F1 teams have been "borrowing" ideas from each other since the first race was run. For Ferrari to adopt such a Holier than thou attitude sucks.
Pat Buckley
GT40s Supporter
Sanctimonious jerks.
Are these the same innocent babes who condoned the jerk Schumachers actions at Monte Carlo when he blocked the track to prevent his competitiors from finishing a qualifying lap?
As I recall they were pretty quiet about that.
Are these the same innocent babes who condoned the jerk Schumachers actions at Monte Carlo when he blocked the track to prevent his competitiors from finishing a qualifying lap?
As I recall they were pretty quiet about that.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
F1 : Provisional FiA 2008 Calendar Friday, 27 July 2007
Date Country Track
16th March Australia Melbourne
23rd March Malaysia Sepang
6th April Bahrain Bahrain Int. Circuit
27th April Spain Barcelona
11th May Turkey Istanbul
25th May Monaco Monaco
8th June Canada Montreal
22nd June France Magny-Cours
6th July Britain Silverstone
20th July Germany Hockenheim
3rd August Hungary Hungaroring
24th August Spain - European GPValencia
7th Sept Italy Monza
14th Sept Belgium Spa Francorchamps
28th Sept Singapore Singapore
12th October China Shanghai
19th October Japan Fuji
2nd November Brazil Interlagos
Date Country Track
16th March Australia Melbourne
23rd March Malaysia Sepang
6th April Bahrain Bahrain Int. Circuit
27th April Spain Barcelona
11th May Turkey Istanbul
25th May Monaco Monaco
8th June Canada Montreal
22nd June France Magny-Cours
6th July Britain Silverstone
20th July Germany Hockenheim
3rd August Hungary Hungaroring
24th August Spain - European GPValencia
7th Sept Italy Monza
14th Sept Belgium Spa Francorchamps
28th Sept Singapore Singapore
12th October China Shanghai
19th October Japan Fuji
2nd November Brazil Interlagos
Last edited:
Sanctimonious indeed. If F1 is still a sport then the most blatantly unsporting team in recent years has been Ferrari in the way they conducted themselves on track via their number one driver. I used to be a fan of the red cars but have become increasingly jaundiced by their actions to the point now where I just enjoy seeing them get stuffed by the opposition. Well done Fernandoepper:
John
then the most blatantly unsporting team in recent years has been Ferrari in the way they conducted themselves on track via their number one driver. I used to be a fan of the red cars but have become increasingly jaundiced by their actions to the point now where I just enjoy seeing them get stuffed by the opposition. Well done Fernandoepper: John
Sanctimonious indeed. If F1 is still a sport
John
Fantastically well put. Nothing I like more than a good Ferrari stuffing, especially when it was a-la-Renault.......
I Wouldn't even call it Formula one any more, There's just too many rules and too much bitching and sniping. Money and power has ruined the sport, just like football, and just about every other popular top-league sport.
Nothing tops a good old hillclimb or track day where everything was built for ten quid
Re Ferrari's objection to this affair: POT - KETTLE - BLACK
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
F1 a sport?
Not a chance in hell.
Not a chance in hell.
Pat Buckley
GT40s Supporter
Is Speed in or out?
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Hi Pat,
I heard he was still testing as of yesterday (thursday), in spite of back pain.
It must be the money.....
I heard he was still testing as of yesterday (thursday), in spite of back pain.
It must be the money.....
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
F1 : Ferrari - A reaction in the cold light of day.
Friday, 27 July 2007
Twenty four hours on from the World Council's surprising decision which provoked so much discussion, as can be seen simply from looking at those sent to our Internet site, Ferrari CEO Jean Todt chose to reflect in the cold light of day on everything that has taken place. "I am bitter about it: what happened yesterday is serious. On the one hand a verdict of guilt was handed down and on the other, no sanctions were imposed. I cannot understand it," reaffirmed Todt. "During yesterday's meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney. Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over "some cars." Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours. It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren. In an attempt to justify its actions, McLaren has tried to claim the immunity normally accorded to a whistleblower in some legal systems. But it should be noted that usually, an informant or whistleblower goes to the competent authority to denounce something, whereas in this case he went to Ferrari's main rival who, and it is not us who say this but the FIA, took great care not to mention that the information was obtained in this way.
Let us move on. McLaren has confirmed that it has had to install a firewall to prevent further information from Stepney from reaching the team in the form of documents. Furthermore, Coughlan has been asked to tell the very same Stepney to stop sending him information. It is a shame that before this, Coughlan asked him for information on our brake balance system, then went to lunch with him in Spain, before calmly returning home with 780 pages of designs, diagrams, data and a whole lot more - as stated by the FIA release - with which to design, develop run and race a 2007 Ferrari Formula 1 car. As confirmed in that decision yesterday, the violation was already there in the simple possession of the information, which in itself constitutes an enormous advantage in a sport like Formula 1. In Ferrari's opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding.
It remains incomprehensible that apart from possession, one must also demonstrate the effective and visible use of this information on the McLaren car. Actually, this very same fact, on the basis of available information which the FIA used to find McLaren guilty, shows that the offence lies in the possession without the need to prove anything else. The proof is there and this led to the FIA's decision. Therefore I find it difficult to understand how the verdict makes sense. Furthermore, I have to say that the proof of effective use requested by the FIA is impossible for Ferrari to furnish, because of course, Ferrari does not have access to the McLaren car."
Todt further added this piece of behind the scenes background: "A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority. I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren. There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9 June last. Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the e-mails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us. So, on the one hand, they had come to say "let us trust one another," and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement.
"Finally, it should be noted that yesterday's meeting was not an appearance before a tribunal, but a meeting of the FIA World Council, at which only McLaren was asked to respond to accusations and in which we were present only as observers. Therefore there was no possibility to play an active role as we would have wished. I was only able to ask a few questions and reply to some, but we were not able to present our case nor the documents to support it.
"This decision remains very disappointing and surprising. It is not acceptable to create a precedent in such an important case in which the guilty verdict for serious and persistent violation of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not automatically incur a penalty. For our part, we will press on with the legal actions currently taking place in Italy and in England and we do not rule out taking further action."
Friday, 27 July 2007
Twenty four hours on from the World Council's surprising decision which provoked so much discussion, as can be seen simply from looking at those sent to our Internet site, Ferrari CEO Jean Todt chose to reflect in the cold light of day on everything that has taken place. "I am bitter about it: what happened yesterday is serious. On the one hand a verdict of guilt was handed down and on the other, no sanctions were imposed. I cannot understand it," reaffirmed Todt. "During yesterday's meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney. Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over "some cars." Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours. It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren. In an attempt to justify its actions, McLaren has tried to claim the immunity normally accorded to a whistleblower in some legal systems. But it should be noted that usually, an informant or whistleblower goes to the competent authority to denounce something, whereas in this case he went to Ferrari's main rival who, and it is not us who say this but the FIA, took great care not to mention that the information was obtained in this way.
Let us move on. McLaren has confirmed that it has had to install a firewall to prevent further information from Stepney from reaching the team in the form of documents. Furthermore, Coughlan has been asked to tell the very same Stepney to stop sending him information. It is a shame that before this, Coughlan asked him for information on our brake balance system, then went to lunch with him in Spain, before calmly returning home with 780 pages of designs, diagrams, data and a whole lot more - as stated by the FIA release - with which to design, develop run and race a 2007 Ferrari Formula 1 car. As confirmed in that decision yesterday, the violation was already there in the simple possession of the information, which in itself constitutes an enormous advantage in a sport like Formula 1. In Ferrari's opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding.
It remains incomprehensible that apart from possession, one must also demonstrate the effective and visible use of this information on the McLaren car. Actually, this very same fact, on the basis of available information which the FIA used to find McLaren guilty, shows that the offence lies in the possession without the need to prove anything else. The proof is there and this led to the FIA's decision. Therefore I find it difficult to understand how the verdict makes sense. Furthermore, I have to say that the proof of effective use requested by the FIA is impossible for Ferrari to furnish, because of course, Ferrari does not have access to the McLaren car."
Todt further added this piece of behind the scenes background: "A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority. I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren. There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9 June last. Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the e-mails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us. So, on the one hand, they had come to say "let us trust one another," and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement.
"Finally, it should be noted that yesterday's meeting was not an appearance before a tribunal, but a meeting of the FIA World Council, at which only McLaren was asked to respond to accusations and in which we were present only as observers. Therefore there was no possibility to play an active role as we would have wished. I was only able to ask a few questions and reply to some, but we were not able to present our case nor the documents to support it.
"This decision remains very disappointing and surprising. It is not acceptable to create a precedent in such an important case in which the guilty verdict for serious and persistent violation of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not automatically incur a penalty. For our part, we will press on with the legal actions currently taking place in Italy and in England and we do not rule out taking further action."
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Roll on the Goodwood Revival....
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
The FIA says that Luigi Macaluso, the president of the FIA-CIK must have been mistaken when he said that he was the only World Council delegate to have been against the decision not to punish McLaren.
"We can confirm that the World that the World Motor Sport Council's decision was unanimous," said an FIA spokesman. "We can only imagine that Mr Macaluso's comments were either taken out of context or were not clearly expressed in the media scrum which ensued outside the hearing."
Alternatively, the media may have reported exactly what Macalusa said and may have failed to notice that he was trying to please everybody at the same time and was feeling less than comfortable as the only Italian representative on the World Council.
Macaluso has been friends with Enzo Ferrari's son Piero and Ferrari chairman Luca di Montezemolo since the 1960s and is a self-confessed Ferrari fan. After working for Swatch in the 1970s Macaluso set up his own watch trading business in 1982 and then gradually bought control of the Girard-Perregaux company. He used his Ferrari connections to negotiate a deal to use the prancing horse logo on watch dials, beginning in 1994. Girard-Perregaux has since developed a full line of Ferrari timepieces.
"We can confirm that the World that the World Motor Sport Council's decision was unanimous," said an FIA spokesman. "We can only imagine that Mr Macaluso's comments were either taken out of context or were not clearly expressed in the media scrum which ensued outside the hearing."
Alternatively, the media may have reported exactly what Macalusa said and may have failed to notice that he was trying to please everybody at the same time and was feeling less than comfortable as the only Italian representative on the World Council.
Macaluso has been friends with Enzo Ferrari's son Piero and Ferrari chairman Luca di Montezemolo since the 1960s and is a self-confessed Ferrari fan. After working for Swatch in the 1970s Macaluso set up his own watch trading business in 1982 and then gradually bought control of the Girard-Perregaux company. He used his Ferrari connections to negotiate a deal to use the prancing horse logo on watch dials, beginning in 1994. Girard-Perregaux has since developed a full line of Ferrari timepieces.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
McLAREN RACING STATEMENT FOLLOWING THE EXTRAORDINARY MEETING OF THE WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL - 26th July 2007
Following an appearance by McLaren today at the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris, a unanimous decision has been taken by the FIA which in McLaren’s opinion is very balanced and fair. McLaren accepts the that the FIA World Motor Sport Council had no alternative other than to find that there was a purely technical breach by reason of the possession of certain information by one individual at his home, without McLaren’s knowledge or authority. McLaren is delighted that the World Motor Sport Council determined that this information was not used and accordingly imposed no sanction whatsoever on the team. McLaren looks forward to continuing its fight in what is the most exciting Drivers’ and Constructors’ World Championship in many years.
RON DENNIS, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, McLAREN GROUP: “There is no doubt that the past 24 days have been challenging and the tremendous support we have received from our sponsor partners and the public has been much appreciated. Moving forward McLaren wants to re-affirm our long-standing commitment to honesty and integrity and re-state that we believe we have acted correctly throughout. Now, we have Formula 1 World Championships to win. As a result we intend to move on, so as to maintain the focus and commitment required to do exactly that.”
FERNANDO ALONSO: “Having only been part of McLaren for a few months I know how important today’s decision will be for everybody. I am looking forward to an exciting second half of the season and to continue our battle for both World Championships.”
LEWIS HAMILTON: “Whilst it’s only my first season in Formula 1 with the team, I already know and appreciate the commitment and dedication of the people there. As a result I am pleased with today’s decision and can’t wait for the rest of the season.”
Following an appearance by McLaren today at the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris, a unanimous decision has been taken by the FIA which in McLaren’s opinion is very balanced and fair. McLaren accepts the that the FIA World Motor Sport Council had no alternative other than to find that there was a purely technical breach by reason of the possession of certain information by one individual at his home, without McLaren’s knowledge or authority. McLaren is delighted that the World Motor Sport Council determined that this information was not used and accordingly imposed no sanction whatsoever on the team. McLaren looks forward to continuing its fight in what is the most exciting Drivers’ and Constructors’ World Championship in many years.
RON DENNIS, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, McLAREN GROUP: “There is no doubt that the past 24 days have been challenging and the tremendous support we have received from our sponsor partners and the public has been much appreciated. Moving forward McLaren wants to re-affirm our long-standing commitment to honesty and integrity and re-state that we believe we have acted correctly throughout. Now, we have Formula 1 World Championships to win. As a result we intend to move on, so as to maintain the focus and commitment required to do exactly that.”
FERNANDO ALONSO: “Having only been part of McLaren for a few months I know how important today’s decision will be for everybody. I am looking forward to an exciting second half of the season and to continue our battle for both World Championships.”
LEWIS HAMILTON: “Whilst it’s only my first season in Formula 1 with the team, I already know and appreciate the commitment and dedication of the people there. As a result I am pleased with today’s decision and can’t wait for the rest of the season.”
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Ron Walker, promoter of the Australian grand prix in Melbourne, admitted surprise when his race was reinstated in the top position on the formula one calendar for 2008. The Australian Grand Prix Corporation, having refused to stage night races, this week divulged that Bahrain had instead secured the honour of opening next year's championship.
But after the provisional 2008 was published on Friday, Walker told Melbourne newspaper The Age: "Bernie (Ecclestone) in the end decided that it was best to go back to where we were.
"It is a surprise but a very welcome one."
Melbourne, whose race is staged at Albert Park just south of the Victorian city, has opened the F1 calendar every year since 1996 -- except 2006 to avoid a clash with the Commonwealth Games.
The race next year will take place on March 16, with Malaysia's round near Kuala Lumpur following just seven days later.
Italy and Belgium in September will also be staged back to back, as will China and Japan the following month.
Ron says "It is a surprise but a very welcome one." I doubt it is welcome at all unless the v8 Supercars can somehow still be part of the race program. The Melbourne crowds stayed away in droves this year and that was put down to the V8's not racing.
When Melbourne was said lost the opening billing to Bahrain, Ron was quoted as saying he was happy because this would enable the V8 Supercars to be part of the program once more.
I'm confused
But after the provisional 2008 was published on Friday, Walker told Melbourne newspaper The Age: "Bernie (Ecclestone) in the end decided that it was best to go back to where we were.
"It is a surprise but a very welcome one."
Melbourne, whose race is staged at Albert Park just south of the Victorian city, has opened the F1 calendar every year since 1996 -- except 2006 to avoid a clash with the Commonwealth Games.
The race next year will take place on March 16, with Malaysia's round near Kuala Lumpur following just seven days later.
Italy and Belgium in September will also be staged back to back, as will China and Japan the following month.
Ron says "It is a surprise but a very welcome one." I doubt it is welcome at all unless the v8 Supercars can somehow still be part of the race program. The Melbourne crowds stayed away in droves this year and that was put down to the V8's not racing.
When Melbourne was said lost the opening billing to Bahrain, Ron was quoted as saying he was happy because this would enable the V8 Supercars to be part of the program once more.
I'm confused
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
:lurker:
McLAREN RACING STATEMENT - 31 July 2007
Woking, United Kingdom, 31st July 2007: Following a thoroughly misleading press campaign by Ferrari and pressure from the Automobile Club D’ Italia, the FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to consider the unanimous decision made by the World Motor Sport Council on 26th July 2007. Having considered in great detail the full submissions of both Ferrari and McLaren, the World Motorsport Council determined that there was no evidence that any information, passed by a Ferrari team member to a McLaren employee, had been brought into the organisation or provided any benefit whatsoever to the McLaren programme.
McLaren is not aware of any new information or arguments that have arisen since the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council and therefore assumes that these same materials will now be considered by the FIA International Court of Appeal. Whilst this is both disappointing and time-consuming, McLaren is confident that the FIA International Court of Appeal will also exonerate McLaren and we will in the meanwhile continue to focus on our current World Championship programme.
McLAREN RACING STATEMENT - 31 July 2007
Woking, United Kingdom, 31st July 2007: Following a thoroughly misleading press campaign by Ferrari and pressure from the Automobile Club D’ Italia, the FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to consider the unanimous decision made by the World Motor Sport Council on 26th July 2007. Having considered in great detail the full submissions of both Ferrari and McLaren, the World Motorsport Council determined that there was no evidence that any information, passed by a Ferrari team member to a McLaren employee, had been brought into the organisation or provided any benefit whatsoever to the McLaren programme.
McLaren is not aware of any new information or arguments that have arisen since the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council and therefore assumes that these same materials will now be considered by the FIA International Court of Appeal. Whilst this is both disappointing and time-consuming, McLaren is confident that the FIA International Court of Appeal will also exonerate McLaren and we will in the meanwhile continue to focus on our current World Championship programme.
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