Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
And an Aussie on the podium, well done Mr Webber. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
F1 is boring me to death!!!!
- Thread starter CCX33911
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For a first timer on the podium Mark Webber was certainly less than happy, and rightly so in my opinion. Having done better than his team mate throughout whole race meeting and also sitting ahead of him in the championship, the team strategists decided to hand Nick Heidfeld second place above Mark Webber with a favourable pit stop. Does anybody else see the injustice in this or is it simply my Australian bias showing. Theories are that BMW would have preferred a German to be better placed, or possibly because Webber was struggling to get past Alonso that Heidfeld should also have a crack at it.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
I didn't see the race but reading the drivers comments after the race I.got the feeling that M.W. was a little miffed about the pit strategy. So you could be right Chris.
There is also a rumour around the traps that Williams and B.M.W. are in conflict over supply of engines for next season. So keeping the Germans sweet might be a smart move politically. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
There is also a rumour around the traps that Williams and B.M.W. are in conflict over supply of engines for next season. So keeping the Germans sweet might be a smart move politically. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Admittedly Heidfeld's passing manoeuvre on Alonso was the better of the 3 overtaking manoeuvres that Alonso experienced, however the fact that Webber did it twice on successive laps has to count for something (especially when Alonso didn’t outbreak the corner but still drove on – it was a bit naughty).
I agree Chris that Webber has every right to be totally p…ed off, considering the team robbed him of vital points that would have put him even closer to the lead??
Maybe Pete is right, PR is more important than a couple of points for Webber.
Bill.
I agree Chris that Webber has every right to be totally p…ed off, considering the team robbed him of vital points that would have put him even closer to the lead??
Maybe Pete is right, PR is more important than a couple of points for Webber.
Bill.
....but anyway all this show remains soooo bbboriing.....
Paul-italy
For me..formula one is finished with Airton Senna.
Paul-italy
For me..formula one is finished with Airton Senna.
I agree that Ayton Senna was the last true superdriver. Michael Schumacher just doesn't make the grade by comparison in my opinion. Can a comparison like this be made? MS has been beaten to a championship by Mika Hakkinen (who was a poor second team mate to Senna), Damon Hill (who was also a poor second to Senna) and Jacque Villeneuve (a barely worthy second to Damon Hill). MS did not even come close to Senna's records over the same short period of time. And it is well documented that Senna achieved his records in a generally uncompetitive car with the likes of Prost and Mansel breathing down his neck.
Having said that, I still find F1 worthy as a whole.
Having said that, I still find F1 worthy as a whole.
I completely lost respect to Mika hakkinen when I personally saw him crying in Monza GP due to gear shift pilot error.
Was the time he was driving a Mclaren.
He put in 1st gear instead 2nd gear and made a spin...stopping engine.I was in that point..saw this blond rich puppy running out and crying as a baby,in the forest of Monza park.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
In that moment I completely loose any type of respect to him and to those type of formula one drivers.
I do not believe heroes as Jim Clark, Gilles Villeneuve, Mario Andretti, Nigel Mansell and so on can neither think to do the same, absolutely not.I like too much the old British driving school,and also all the drivers of that incredible age.
And if i just think at Bruce Mclaren phrase ...."To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. It would be a waste of life to do nothing with one's ability, for I feel that life is measured in achievement, not in years alone."...i became just more and more sure about my ideas on today formula one and pilots...
hope u can understand me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif and i am sure u will.
Paul
Was the time he was driving a Mclaren.
He put in 1st gear instead 2nd gear and made a spin...stopping engine.I was in that point..saw this blond rich puppy running out and crying as a baby,in the forest of Monza park.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
In that moment I completely loose any type of respect to him and to those type of formula one drivers.
I do not believe heroes as Jim Clark, Gilles Villeneuve, Mario Andretti, Nigel Mansell and so on can neither think to do the same, absolutely not.I like too much the old British driving school,and also all the drivers of that incredible age.
And if i just think at Bruce Mclaren phrase ...."To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. It would be a waste of life to do nothing with one's ability, for I feel that life is measured in achievement, not in years alone."...i became just more and more sure about my ideas on today formula one and pilots...
hope u can understand me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif and i am sure u will.
Paul
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Well, Sunday had all the drama of a Speilberg. Our bloke Webber putting himself out on the first corner /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifTactical
battles in the pits throughout the race. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif And an epic last ten laps with Kimi fighting a badly flat spotted tire
and Alonso catching him at a second a lap. Then finally the tire lets go taking the suspension with it and Kimi from hero to zero /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Not boring this time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. IMHO the tyre rule has to be changed because it is bloody dangerous /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
battles in the pits throughout the race. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif And an epic last ten laps with Kimi fighting a badly flat spotted tire
and Alonso catching him at a second a lap. Then finally the tire lets go taking the suspension with it and Kimi from hero to zero /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Not boring this time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. IMHO the tyre rule has to be changed because it is bloody dangerous /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Pete,
I had the same feeling about the new tyre rules at the start, but then considered that faulty tyres (when you know that there is a fault) are no more dangerous than faulty anything else. McLaren knew that the tyre was faulty so that makes it a calculated risk, not a danger. However, sometimes teams will choose to do something that puts themselves and other drivers in danger and ideally the black flag comes out in those cases.
Keep in mind too that the rules don't prohibit the teams from replacing faulty tyres. They just prohibit them from fueling the car on the same pit stop.
I had the same feeling about the new tyre rules at the start, but then considered that faulty tyres (when you know that there is a fault) are no more dangerous than faulty anything else. McLaren knew that the tyre was faulty so that makes it a calculated risk, not a danger. However, sometimes teams will choose to do something that puts themselves and other drivers in danger and ideally the black flag comes out in those cases.
Keep in mind too that the rules don't prohibit the teams from replacing faulty tyres. They just prohibit them from fueling the car on the same pit stop.
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Chris
A calculated risk - yes but how close did he come to ending someone else's race once it all went bang?
I think safety should be paramount and that racing on canvas banned! The tyre was wrecked and so should have been changed legally at a pit stop - the stewards should have black flagged him within 1 lap of the first "vibrator" shots from his on car camera!
Now if they brought in a rule that you had to have at least 2 mm of tread (on each groove) at the end of the race - all around the tyre that would work as the teams would only run a tyre that would get to the 2mm limit at race end - thereby having the safety built in!
Ian
A calculated risk - yes but how close did he come to ending someone else's race once it all went bang?
I think safety should be paramount and that racing on canvas banned! The tyre was wrecked and so should have been changed legally at a pit stop - the stewards should have black flagged him within 1 lap of the first "vibrator" shots from his on car camera!
Now if they brought in a rule that you had to have at least 2 mm of tread (on each groove) at the end of the race - all around the tyre that would work as the teams would only run a tyre that would get to the 2mm limit at race end - thereby having the safety built in!
Ian
Ian,
I agree totally. I think we are saying the same thing. It was up to the stewards to enforce safety in this case but they chose not to, probably because it was a new unknown area. There was nothing stopping McLaren from replacing the tyre legally, they just chose not to. You can bet though that he would have been brought in (or been black-flagged) if it was his rear wing that was vibrating itself to pieces. My point was that it was the damage that made the situation dangerous, not the design life of the tyre.
PS. I think your idea of a minimum tread is a good one. At the moment there is no minimum which makes me wonder why the tyre manufactures don't design the tyre to ware itself to a slick in the first lap. There seems to be a gaping loop hole there that no-one seems to have picked up on????
I agree totally. I think we are saying the same thing. It was up to the stewards to enforce safety in this case but they chose not to, probably because it was a new unknown area. There was nothing stopping McLaren from replacing the tyre legally, they just chose not to. You can bet though that he would have been brought in (or been black-flagged) if it was his rear wing that was vibrating itself to pieces. My point was that it was the damage that made the situation dangerous, not the design life of the tyre.
PS. I think your idea of a minimum tread is a good one. At the moment there is no minimum which makes me wonder why the tyre manufactures don't design the tyre to ware itself to a slick in the first lap. There seems to be a gaping loop hole there that no-one seems to have picked up on????
This "calculated risk" issue is why F1 seems stuck at the crossroads of an identity crisis. People have to decide whether they want all-out competition at the cutting edge of technology, or a strictly controlled "demonstration" of high speed technology. But like most sports, the influx of corporate influence has dictated the future direction and philosophy of the sport.When it was just a few diehards using their own money, nobody really cared and yet the racing was at it's best.
Bruce McLaren's comment on the risk issue, as highlighted by Paul, neatly sums up the traditional view.
I suppose this is also summed up by the whingeing of both Ralf and Rubens at Monaco, when Michael "dared" to overtake them on the line, (presumably whilst they were already counting their points and tasting the champagne) Now THAT is proper racing, and yet both the aforementioned "racers" bleated about the "dangers" in such a move.(Overtaking in F1? Whatever next!)
If you take all the risk away, then this series will cease to be the all challenging spectacle and experience that the people have come to expect.
Bruce McLaren's comment on the risk issue, as highlighted by Paul, neatly sums up the traditional view.
I suppose this is also summed up by the whingeing of both Ralf and Rubens at Monaco, when Michael "dared" to overtake them on the line, (presumably whilst they were already counting their points and tasting the champagne) Now THAT is proper racing, and yet both the aforementioned "racers" bleated about the "dangers" in such a move.(Overtaking in F1? Whatever next!)
If you take all the risk away, then this series will cease to be the all challenging spectacle and experience that the people have come to expect.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
McLaren could not have pitted Raikonnen at the Nurburgring without incurring a penalty. He induced the problem when he 'flat spotted' passing Villeneuve about 22 laps to go. Other teams were ready to pounce with protests if he did pit without having a puncture. The rules are quite clear and any protest would have undoubtedly been upheld, so the 'helium penguin' had to keep going until the inevitable happened. Alonso had some tyre problems in the middle stint but he didn't go out and build a 20 second lead like Raikonnen did in the first stint, which was not very circumspect - considering the simultaneous braking at turning at the 'ring on many of the turns. Alonso could end the year with the championship wrapped up by Interlagos but it's a v.long season and plenty can happen yet.
Renault took it on the chin when their tyres went off in Monaco so why all the pity in the press for McLaren ? Roll on next week !!
Renault took it on the chin when their tyres went off in Monaco so why all the pity in the press for McLaren ? Roll on next week !!
What is this "F1" of which you speak?
I have lately been engrossed in a racing series called "MotoGP".
I do have fond memories of something called (coincidentally) "F1" that was around during my formative years, but that was something quite different. I while away many an hour watching whatever footage I can find of those years.
F1 - they've lost me, and I assure you I was a diehard.
If I want courtroom drama or technicality as a reason for winning or destruction (either organic and non-organic) then I'll watch one of those boring "drama" series that passes for entertainment these days. Then again maybe not.
What a pity Rumpole is no more. I guess I'll just have to watch reruns of that along with my "historical" racing collection.
If I ever discover myself wanting politics as entertainment then I'll take my GT and see how fast I can hit the nearest tree.
If you want serious "anything to win" racing, I have recently watched some Irish road racing (motorcycle) that makes the Isle of Man look like F1 (I know that sounds like an exaggeration but it's true). Those boys are seriously mad!
IMO F1 is no longer interesting nor is it safe (the above-mentioned rules and flat-spotted tyre as an example). Results so far may be a bit different but not for the right reasons (IMO) and it's too little too late for me.
More and more stupid rules making it more and more difficult to follow, seems like a winner to me...
I think I've made my point by now. I wish it could have been more constructive.
I was going to post a picture of Jim Clark but I realised that a lawyer somewhere would probably sue me.
Tim.
I have lately been engrossed in a racing series called "MotoGP".
I do have fond memories of something called (coincidentally) "F1" that was around during my formative years, but that was something quite different. I while away many an hour watching whatever footage I can find of those years.
F1 - they've lost me, and I assure you I was a diehard.
If I want courtroom drama or technicality as a reason for winning or destruction (either organic and non-organic) then I'll watch one of those boring "drama" series that passes for entertainment these days. Then again maybe not.
What a pity Rumpole is no more. I guess I'll just have to watch reruns of that along with my "historical" racing collection.
If I ever discover myself wanting politics as entertainment then I'll take my GT and see how fast I can hit the nearest tree.
If you want serious "anything to win" racing, I have recently watched some Irish road racing (motorcycle) that makes the Isle of Man look like F1 (I know that sounds like an exaggeration but it's true). Those boys are seriously mad!
IMO F1 is no longer interesting nor is it safe (the above-mentioned rules and flat-spotted tyre as an example). Results so far may be a bit different but not for the right reasons (IMO) and it's too little too late for me.
More and more stupid rules making it more and more difficult to follow, seems like a winner to me...
I think I've made my point by now. I wish it could have been more constructive.
I was going to post a picture of Jim Clark but I realised that a lawyer somewhere would probably sue me.
Tim.
I quite like Colin Chapman's quote. If the car does not fall apart as it crosses the finish line then its over-engineered ... or something like that.
David,
My understanding of the rules is that tyres can be replaced at any time during the race as long as there is no fueling during the same pit stop. I assume that you have a different understanding of the rules? I watched a re-run of the last few laps today and the only reason given for not pitting was the desire to retain the lead.
David,
My understanding of the rules is that tyres can be replaced at any time during the race as long as there is no fueling during the same pit stop. I assume that you have a different understanding of the rules? I watched a re-run of the last few laps today and the only reason given for not pitting was the desire to retain the lead.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Chris,
Indeed any tam can change to Inters or Wets at any time they want but if they (McLaren) had changed the Right Front to another (nominated, worn and used in practise on the same car ) dry tyre without it first being punctured or deflated it would have gone to the stewards of the race and they would have been penalised.
Tim, I think you are correct in many ways. I'm a moto gp addict. and when I feel the need - it's Ducati time here....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Indeed any tam can change to Inters or Wets at any time they want but if they (McLaren) had changed the Right Front to another (nominated, worn and used in practise on the same car ) dry tyre without it first being punctured or deflated it would have gone to the stewards of the race and they would have been penalised.
Tim, I think you are correct in many ways. I'm a moto gp addict. and when I feel the need - it's Ducati time here....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
....just returned home now from Mugello Motogp race...
I just hope one day also formula one can return to THIS level show.
Was probably the best year race for bikes.
P.S
ave..I hope to see u in classic endurance racing in Monza the next 9th july /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Paul
I just hope one day also formula one can return to THIS level show.
Was probably the best year race for bikes.
P.S
ave..I hope to see u in classic endurance racing in Monza the next 9th july /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gifPaul
An interesting comment that they made during the Aussie MotoGP telecast was that the bikes are going so quick now that they will need to deal with speed in a similar manner to F1. In my opinion, all the rules "issues" in F1 come from the fact that technology has the ability to build cars that are beyond human endurance and race track design. MotoGP bikes have been able to avoid all that design politics because they haven't hit that wall yet. That may soon come to an end. That will just leave us with the World Rally championship as the only pure design category... now that WOULD be exciting once someone finds a way to telecast it properly.
...Obviousy I'm just a motorsport junkie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
...Obviousy I'm just a motorsport junkie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[ QUOTE ]
That will just leave us with the World Rally championship as the only pure design category... now that WOULD be exciting
[/ QUOTE ]
I could be wrong here but I think the WRC is limited to stage overall average speeds of 132kph the same as all other rallies held under FIA jurisdiction. Not all that limiting on gravel and rough stages but here in NZ on our tarmac rallies it is a real PITA for organisers finding ways to slow down the faster cars. They have tried ballast, speed restricted zones (eg 50kph) in the middle of stages, 200kph maximum speed limit policed by laser guns. A right nightmare all round! And somewhat of a farce! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Regards
That will just leave us with the World Rally championship as the only pure design category... now that WOULD be exciting
[/ QUOTE ]
I could be wrong here but I think the WRC is limited to stage overall average speeds of 132kph the same as all other rallies held under FIA jurisdiction. Not all that limiting on gravel and rough stages but here in NZ on our tarmac rallies it is a real PITA for organisers finding ways to slow down the faster cars. They have tried ballast, speed restricted zones (eg 50kph) in the middle of stages, 200kph maximum speed limit policed by laser guns. A right nightmare all round! And somewhat of a farce! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Regards
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