Familiarity with GM circle track 525 engine?

[Alex]

Is anybody familiar with the GM circle track 525 engine? It would seem that this would be quite the nice engine to use

CT525 w/ 525ish hp for $7000
GM Performance Parts | CT 525 525 Overview

+

$4-5000 in aggressive LS3 head/cam swap

=600-650hp (flywheel, not rear wheel) for a very decent price.

The only downside I can see to this plan is how reliable for street driving would the CT engine be? it's pretty gosh darn cheap for what you get (more hp/tq than an LS7), so that would make me wonder if it needs constant rebuilds? I phoned several dealers to ask, and some say 'well, it's a race engine so you'll be rebuilding it every year or two if you drive it on the street', others say 'it's basically and LS engine - reliable until 200k if you arn't hammering 6000rpm all day long on the street'.

?

 

[Mike]

Check the specs on that. I believe you will find that the only differences between the basic LS3 long block with the injection is that the intake is changed out for a carb intake and the cam is changed. If you are gonna do a different setup anyway, then the cheaper model will probably do just fine. I think you may even be able to get a short block for a couple thousand if you plan on changing the heads anyway. If not, you can probably sell the intake for some $$$.

Tell you the truth, I may use my stock LS3 for racing use and I want over 500 RWHP and plan on getting it just by putting in the factory ASA cam and reprograming the ECU, along with a couple "tricks" that may or may not work. My have to go to an after market 105mm TB. The dyno will tell. It will be dry sumped.

If you get an LS3 that is built after, I believe, june of 2009 then it has the improvements that allow it to handle the blower of the factory LS9 build with the super charger. It is said to be about 30% stronger. That should help with durability, just make sure you get that later build.

 

[Mike]

Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. It does have a different pan on it also that I forgot about.

My option is to buy the cheap one, put a cam in it, dry sump it and maybe change the headers and I should have a reliable 500+ HP race engine for under $10k. We shall see.

 

[Alex]

So if you wanted 500ishRWhp from an LS3 that was reliable (for street driving, so meaning it's not banging 6000rpm all day long and I don't want to do any rebuilds on it) and naturally aspirated and carb'd, how much would you expect to pay for that type of build from a shop? (keeping in mind I have no intention of ever adding nitrous or anything, so it doesn't need to be able to hold, say, 1000rwhp in the future)

I love the LS7, but I'm thinking I could probably get a better built LS3, with more power, cheaper.

 

[Mike]

Carbs can be very expensive and a little tempermental. I have seen people spend thousands on a carb. I want to keep costs down, stay on pump gas, and have the ease of injection.

I just don't see how you can beat the bang for the buck of a crate LS3. After driving a 2000 pound kit car with about 400 HP, my recommendation to you would be to save your money, just get the cheap LS3 setup and then change things if you then find more HP neccesary. We are racing, so more HP, now that we have the car sorted, will probably be beneficial and I think we are ready for it. These engines also have very flat curves and that is very helpful for keeping the number of shifts down. Lots of HP with a peaky TQ curve would be a negative IMO.

 

[Jack]

Totally agree with Crash on this one. You can't beat the LS3 for the money. The later engines are best and with a simple cam change & ECU tune yo can get a very reliable 500HP.

 

[Mike]

Again, my entire package for the LS3, harness, and pedal assembly was about $7000 about six months to a year ago. If you get the package deal from Fran there is no question you will have plenty of HP for well under $10k. Maybe even modified to what you want for under $7500.


But then, I guess you think I lowball everything, so take those actual numbers for what you think they are worth.

 

[Alex]

Carbs can be very expensive and a little tempermental. I have seen people spend thousands on a carb. I want to keep costs down, stay on pump gas, and have the ease of injection.

I just don't see how you can beat the bang for the buck of a crate LS3. After driving a 2000 pound kit car with about 400 HP, my recommendation to you would be to save your money, just get the cheap LS3 setup and then change things if you then find more HP neccesary. We are racing, so more HP, now that we have the car sorted, will probably be beneficial and I think we are ready for it. These engines also have very flat curves and that is very helpful for keeping the number of shifts down. Lots of HP with a peaky TQ curve would be a negative IMO.

400 hp = small e-weiner

need very very big e-weiner

:laugh:

 

[Jack]

400 hp = small e-weiner

need very very big e-weiner

:laugh:

Speak with Chastity Bono...

 

[Ben Whittle]

LS3 even stock seems to be best bang for buck.

I know this might get me in the bad books but I really hate the sound of 'cammed' engines, how aggressive is the GM 'hot cam' (that's the ASA isn't it)? Does it make idle sound really rough?

What dry sump are you going with on the LS3 crash?

 

[Mike]

I am probably going with an ARE setup. I have been modifying the the vent system and putting on a couple other items for better cooling. Still looking into possibly using a Daley four stage pump with an ARE pan. Talking with a few people trying to determine how much, if any, vacuum the LS3 wants.

As far as the ASA cam goes, the race engine in the GTM I am driving has that cam in it and it is still very easy to drive. A good retune is essential, but even with a REALLY tall 1st the car idles around the paddock pretty easily. Only minor slipping of the clutch is required when turns are tight. There is not much lope or anything like that.

 

[Mike]

400 hp = small e-weiner

need very very big e-weiner

:laugh:

How about you bring your "big e-weiner" car to the track and we will see who the big winner is, and who the big weiner is!

 

[Randy V]

Okay boys....

I realize that this is RCR's forum and all - but being that I am a moderator here as well - I would ask you to both step away from the keyboard while on this site or take your jabs and barbs to another venue such as email or PM.

Thank you.

 

[Mike]

OK Randy, you got it.

Just so you know, EFN and I have shared a couple PMs and I believe we are both simply joking here. That is evidenced by the use of the s that were lacking in most of EFNs previous posts.

I think we are on the same page now, and there is nothing but good fun going on here........unless I am mistaken.

As you can see, I hold no grudge or anything like that against EFN. He ask a valid and frequently asked question and I answered him with, what I believe anyway, to be some useful info. Nothing but good stuff and a little poking of fun happening here, IMO.

 

[Mike]

Here is an excellent article about the LS3. This link is courtesy of a poster on FFCobra. It's the most detailed I have seen and should answer any question you may have about how the LS3 is built.

 - Camaro LS3

 

[Ben Whittle]

Any good examples of ASA cam videos at idle? I think I've seen a few but not entirely sure I am looking at the right things.

Are there any 'better' (I know, I know) cams that don't affect the idle?

 

[Tom]

one alternative you might look into is contacting Thomson Automotive - they do a lot of work with GM performance parts. They build a lot of LS motors, and can build something a little higher spec than a standard crate LS3 motor for a VERY competitive price.

Ask for Kelley Longwish and he can give you the run down on options and prices. I don't have the number handy but you can search them on Google.

 

[Alex]

I'll give them a shout, thanks.

 

[Cam]

They are a little tricky to find on the web so figured i'd save you some time:
Thompson automotive 313-538-0044

 

[Daniel Bringolf]

Here's the link: Thomson Automotive Engines