Flat Plane Crank LS1
- Thread starter Troymx576
- Start date
Personally I'm a bit confused how you started off not wanting an LS engine because of cost, and now you're doing this, heh
I was going to go really cheap on the motor, but then why really cheap on an slc and my dream car. So I added up the completely built up twin turbo v6 with dual disco potato turbos, ecu, ect and I was in the 12-15 range. So at that point I evaluated what I really wanted the car to be and what engine and sensations I wanted out of it. So here I am.
So I really wanted a high revving v8 that sounds amazing. Having a ton of torque down low us just not me. Going for a ride in the red slc Will had at his house had me thinking of just what I wanted and more rpms was it.
Worse case I fail and it does not work for some reason. Then I put the stock crank, stock length off the shelf con rods and off the shelf pistons. Get a good roller cam and have a high revving cross plane crank ls1. So I would still have the high rpms, but a different sound and feel.
Ron Earp
Admin
Hey Troy,
You probably missed my earlier question about racing, but who do you race with and where? I'm always interested to meet fellow racers on GT40s.com as there are not very many on the site. You're in VA so there are clearly good tracks all over the Southeast withing a few hours of a tow. T
There are a three more very accessible events up at VIR this year with the SCCA hosting two weekends, one of which is the 13 hr enduro. RCR did very well at the 13 hr last year with an SLC and I suspect will do even better this year, maybe an overall win.
R
You probably missed my earlier question about racing, but who do you race with and where? I'm always interested to meet fellow racers on GT40s.com as there are not very many on the site. You're in VA so there are clearly good tracks all over the Southeast withing a few hours of a tow. T
There are a three more very accessible events up at VIR this year with the SCCA hosting two weekends, one of which is the 13 hr enduro. RCR did very well at the 13 hr last year with an SLC and I suspect will do even better this year, maybe an overall win.
R
Ron, I did but it did not post. Maybe too long. I am in Fredericksburg VA. I have done hpde's and racing. Right now I do chumpcar with a V6 MR2 for racing as it is the best bang for the buck and the build something out of nothing to think outside the box and not use money is fun. I also have my NASA time trail license and I am a NASA instructor. For tracks I have done this year, Beaver Run, VIR full, grand and north, Summit Point, NJMP, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Daytona and Road Atlanta. I have been on track 16 times so far this year so a busy one for sure. So I am a track crack addict. For the rest of the year I am doing Sebring next week, in one month Road America and then a month later Road Atlanta again. Busy times.
You might be right here. I hope the engine sound and feel and sensation I have while driving will be worth it. Time will tell I guess and I am a bit crazy as I am sure you all have figured out now.
Hi Troy,
First thing I must do is appologise for my comments....They were totaly
inapropriate for this forum. I had a few too many beers down the pub and I made a fool of myself .You had every right to verbally attack me for my comments. But chose not to, so Thank you.
I didnt present my views very well in that post, but I will try to now.
The idea of building a flat plane crank,is as Rudy says, "thinking outside of the box", and Im all for something like that. And I really hope you are seccesfull with this project. I also think the LS series of engines are very good.
When you started this thread your idea was very simple , and in my opion possible. You then said you would like to take the power up to 450/500hp, which by all accounts is very possible with these engines. The result would be a fast road engine, and if I was doing your project, then that is what I would do...There would be little point in building a flat plane engine that was totally standard
At about this point, you started talking about a short stroke engine, then when you got your programe, all of a sudden you went from a fast road engine to a High Revving, Short Stroke, Full Race Engine, That would need huge amounts of money, and time to develop.
I think you are trying to do too much in one go.I would do the engine in stages
First Stage ......get a low milage LS engine, and tune it to a fast road spec, experiment with headers, and get all the components working in harmony with each other
Second Stage.....add your flat plane crank and cam, with the same profile as your first cam, and see how it compares with the dual plane crank
If the engine is a bad engine, put the first cam and crank back in, and you wont have lost much, but you will still have a good engine
If the engine is really good, and you want to develop it further, then sell the engine.(you will get your money back..you may even make money).
Third stage.......Build your high revving, short stroke engine. By this stage , you will have a much better idea of what cam profile you will need, and also you may decide to make a lighter crank
The point Im trying to make, is that by going through the first two stages, you will have a far better idea, of how the engine will perform, and what is required to make a high revving, short stroke, engine that will give the performance and sound that you want.
I am "pissed off" with myself for the comments I made, as soon as I hit the ...Submit Reply.... button I knew I had done the wrong thing...
Sorry guys
First thing I must do is appologise for my comments....They were totaly
inapropriate for this forum. I had a few too many beers down the pub and I made a fool of myself .You had every right to verbally attack me for my comments. But chose not to, so Thank you.
I didnt present my views very well in that post, but I will try to now.
The idea of building a flat plane crank,is as Rudy says, "thinking outside of the box", and Im all for something like that. And I really hope you are seccesfull with this project. I also think the LS series of engines are very good.
When you started this thread your idea was very simple , and in my opion possible. You then said you would like to take the power up to 450/500hp, which by all accounts is very possible with these engines. The result would be a fast road engine, and if I was doing your project, then that is what I would do...There would be little point in building a flat plane engine that was totally standard
At about this point, you started talking about a short stroke engine, then when you got your programe, all of a sudden you went from a fast road engine to a High Revving, Short Stroke, Full Race Engine, That would need huge amounts of money, and time to develop.
I think you are trying to do too much in one go.I would do the engine in stages
First Stage ......get a low milage LS engine, and tune it to a fast road spec, experiment with headers, and get all the components working in harmony with each other
Second Stage.....add your flat plane crank and cam, with the same profile as your first cam, and see how it compares with the dual plane crank
If the engine is a bad engine, put the first cam and crank back in, and you wont have lost much, but you will still have a good engine
If the engine is really good, and you want to develop it further, then sell the engine.(you will get your money back..you may even make money).
Third stage.......Build your high revving, short stroke engine. By this stage , you will have a much better idea of what cam profile you will need, and also you may decide to make a lighter crank
The point Im trying to make, is that by going through the first two stages, you will have a far better idea, of how the engine will perform, and what is required to make a high revving, short stroke, engine that will give the performance and sound that you want.
I am "pissed off" with myself for the comments I made, as soon as I hit the ...Submit Reply.... button I knew I had done the wrong thing...
Sorry guys
Mick, I too apologize for directing the words, moron, stupid and lazy at you. Obviously you are neither of those but sometimes too many beers can do that . You're right I broke the forum rules. You know we're just all so passionate about these things, but cool heads need to prevail. Troy has done such a good job at that! So here's a :chug::chug::chug: for everyone. Let's see what happens with this bad boy.
Rudy
Rudy
Mickky, it is all good, no worries. So back to your questions.
I do want 500 hp and that is my goal, but I wanted 500 rwhp on the dyno. I was thinking about that, but I know revving the engine to get there. If going V8 this way I wanted to rev the engine so I knew I was going to have to basically replace the entire valve train. With 618hp and 15-20% driveline loss we get around 525 to 494 rwhp. That should be good. I had 525rwhp out of a 4cyl turbo and something close to that will be more than fine for me.
As far as when I got the program. I already had the short stroke crank ordered and paid for. I had Patrick help determine the cam specs based on the engine specs I gave him, which is what I have still. He specked out a cam profile, duration, lift, separation, ect that will work wtih my engine. I am happy with what he came up and what I will use. At this point the cam was basically ordered and I was trying to figure out if I wanted to go LS1, 2 or 3 as a base with cost being more with each, but really overall specs and what I wanted. I got the program and put in all the parameters for the engine. I was surprised at the hp number, but then when I started to compare to other engines the power is really just moved up the curve for higher rpms and torque less. I put in the different bores and airflows for the heads to see what would work best and they would make more power, but not huge so I am sticking with the LS1 base. The 5.0L is a nice round number. I used the program to back up all the engine specs I have chosen from all the research I have done to date to make sure I am doing it right the first time. I am using it as a tool to help design the right engine the first time. I put in for more power and I can use more cam duration and lift, but it helps past 5000rpm and hurts down low too much and this is for the street also. I think the cam profile chosen will work well.
I think it will be a fast road engine with a lot of race parts for higher rpms. I am thinking I will set the rev limiter to like 8000 to start and then maybe to 8500 when I feel ready. I want to build it to go past 9000 so if it ever happens then it can happen just in case a missed shift point or something.
I do like the engine build in stages and that does make sense for sure. That was my plan for my V6 build, to do it NA with 250hp, then 8-10 psi and then 15-18psi. I have the trans am here now and I have the entire car. It has been sitting and no plugs are in it. Why, I do not know as that it how it came, but it did turn over before I got it. I might put some wd done the holes, let is soak in, get a battery, turn it over, put some plugs in and see it if runs ok. If it does I might just throw this engine in as first to get a good base and keep it simple.
Then I would build up the short stroke one on the side by getting the LS1 items I need. Basically a block and heads. That should not be all that hard to find pretty cheap. Then build it up and put it in. Anyone have a spare LS1?
If I wanted to not rev past 6500 this would be much easier for sure. Get the crank, con rods, pistons and cam. Keep the rest simple. That is not a bad idea and I might do that, but I really really want to rev the engine a bit more than 6500. That would just not be me, yet it would make sense. I just put it in with smaller cams for hyd lifters and stock springs/valves and here are the comparisons. It is below and more in line with 5.0L low revving engine. Below 4200 the lower revving engine would be better so I am going to need to rev to make power.
I do want 500 hp and that is my goal, but I wanted 500 rwhp on the dyno. I was thinking about that, but I know revving the engine to get there. If going V8 this way I wanted to rev the engine so I knew I was going to have to basically replace the entire valve train. With 618hp and 15-20% driveline loss we get around 525 to 494 rwhp. That should be good. I had 525rwhp out of a 4cyl turbo and something close to that will be more than fine for me.
As far as when I got the program. I already had the short stroke crank ordered and paid for. I had Patrick help determine the cam specs based on the engine specs I gave him, which is what I have still. He specked out a cam profile, duration, lift, separation, ect that will work wtih my engine. I am happy with what he came up and what I will use. At this point the cam was basically ordered and I was trying to figure out if I wanted to go LS1, 2 or 3 as a base with cost being more with each, but really overall specs and what I wanted. I got the program and put in all the parameters for the engine. I was surprised at the hp number, but then when I started to compare to other engines the power is really just moved up the curve for higher rpms and torque less. I put in the different bores and airflows for the heads to see what would work best and they would make more power, but not huge so I am sticking with the LS1 base. The 5.0L is a nice round number. I used the program to back up all the engine specs I have chosen from all the research I have done to date to make sure I am doing it right the first time. I am using it as a tool to help design the right engine the first time. I put in for more power and I can use more cam duration and lift, but it helps past 5000rpm and hurts down low too much and this is for the street also. I think the cam profile chosen will work well.
I think it will be a fast road engine with a lot of race parts for higher rpms. I am thinking I will set the rev limiter to like 8000 to start and then maybe to 8500 when I feel ready. I want to build it to go past 9000 so if it ever happens then it can happen just in case a missed shift point or something.
I do like the engine build in stages and that does make sense for sure. That was my plan for my V6 build, to do it NA with 250hp, then 8-10 psi and then 15-18psi. I have the trans am here now and I have the entire car. It has been sitting and no plugs are in it. Why, I do not know as that it how it came, but it did turn over before I got it. I might put some wd done the holes, let is soak in, get a battery, turn it over, put some plugs in and see it if runs ok. If it does I might just throw this engine in as first to get a good base and keep it simple.
Then I would build up the short stroke one on the side by getting the LS1 items I need. Basically a block and heads. That should not be all that hard to find pretty cheap. Then build it up and put it in. Anyone have a spare LS1?
If I wanted to not rev past 6500 this would be much easier for sure. Get the crank, con rods, pistons and cam. Keep the rest simple. That is not a bad idea and I might do that, but I really really want to rev the engine a bit more than 6500. That would just not be me, yet it would make sense. I just put it in with smaller cams for hyd lifters and stock springs/valves and here are the comparisons. It is below and more in line with 5.0L low revving engine. Below 4200 the lower revving engine would be better so I am going to need to rev to make power.
Troy Troy now you know that you're not going to be happy with a low revving engine. I know what you meant when you said that you rode in a friends SLC but it felt like it needed more rev. Coming from a 4 and 6 cylinder background I can understand how you felt that your friends car just wasn't winding out. Don't start getting logical now! I mean if you're going to start backpedaling now might as well get a Z06. That's a very logical avenue........... But would you be happy? Or if you build an SLC with standard v8 do you really think that you would be happy with the sound? You know the answer. So you'd have this wicked looking car but without that wicked sound that you're looking for. DONT LISTEN TO LOGIC. Logic doesn't produce sexy cars passion does. Now last question.....is the SLC a logical car. I think not
+1 :thumbsup:
These are dream cars - we all need dreams. It'll be very interesting seeing this evolve, not to mention invaluable for those that want to add something a bit more exotic engine-wise, without getting stung with mad parts prices.
:thumbsup:
You got that right! Yeah F and L cars may sound exotic, good power, etc....but go get an oil change, spark plugs and clutch? :thumbsdown:
A typical oil change on a Ferrari F430 will run you $500, and about $800 for a Ferrari F360 Modena, or $1100 for a Ferrari F355. Spark plugs at an average of $3000, belts every 15000 miles at an average of $4000 and finally the mother of all maintenance repairs the clutch which will be about $2500 for a 6 speed transmission and $6500 for the F-1 clutch.
The Murcielago will run you about $2000 for an oil change, $4000 for plugs and the best part $12000 for an E-Gear Clutch.
Maintenance on an SBC is 10% of the F and L cars!!!!
So yeah you'll have an exotic sound but with camaro prices for oil change and spark plugs............forget about it! This is incredible!
We can either
A - Research randomly on google and take the first thing that pops up
http://www.secretentourage.com/lifestyle/autos/cost-of-ownership-of-an-exotic-car/
or
B - research smartly and see an oil change only costs 2k because they rape up for it and you can do it for free yourself
Murcielago DIY Oil change Tutorial - Teamspeed.com
This is going off topic but the gist of my post was that and SBC maintenance cost is 10% of an exotic like F and L cars...that's all. And, no matter how far down the results list I go, I still find that the F and L cars maintenance costs are still way over what an SBC is. I looked on Yahoo and a clutch kit for an F430 is $3,475 (throw out bearing $585, Disk $1,400, hydraulic clutch hose line $1,496 and that is the lowest version of the kit) Come on man, you're missing the point. Even if you do it yourself it will still cost you up the ying yang, hence the interest in the Flat Plane SBC.
My second wife only allowed me to shag her six times in 8 years and that was all on the night before we got married. Actually, I had to get help, when the lights were off I brought in 9 of my mates. (I had a sore ass in the morning and I always wondered who the f*** that was)
It cost me in the region of £650,000 for this experience, what I would like to know is, comparing this ratio of exotic enjoyment via a flat plane crank, vs getting your genitals ripped out via your wallet in an involuntary and quite intoxicated marital gang bang, did I get a better bang for my buck rather than the Ultimate Big Bang of a double 4 Banger, ignoring the most obvious punsters...?
It cost me in the region of £650,000 for this experience, what I would like to know is, comparing this ratio of exotic enjoyment via a flat plane crank, vs getting your genitals ripped out via your wallet in an involuntary and quite intoxicated marital gang bang, did I get a better bang for my buck rather than the Ultimate Big Bang of a double 4 Banger, ignoring the most obvious punsters...?
OK guys, back on topic, for a moment anyway.
I had the last two days off from work getting ready for Sebring and doing other things so I dove into the engine setup a bit more. I called a bunch of people, read a lot and learned a ton. This adventure was on valve springs and lifters, basically to rev high in an LSx. So there is a magic number of 8,000. You stay below that number and you are fine with off the shelf parts and stay with a cam that does not ramp up fast or have too much lift or duration. That is the easy world. Once you want to go above 8,000 it gets way more complicated in that you need to really know all of your items before even talking with someone. The good thing is that I think I have learned fast and now have what is needed to build the engine to rev to 9,000 if I want, yet I will set the rev limiter to like 8200-8500. So to put it this way, I am going to use different valves than I thought as I wanted some light weight valves, I will use more of a custom valve spring that are basically more NASCAR spec with really high seat and open pressure for the rpms. I might need to mill the head .05-.1 to get the correct spring height open and closed. I will need custom Ti retainers for the valves to match the springs and retainers. I have also decided to get the 799 heads to flow a lot better and be more in line with what I want with a full CNC port job. I will use the Jesel adjustable shaft mount rockers, but I just need to get some custom valve covers that are taller or a spacer that I can buy or make myself. Then some custom push rods with solid roller lifters. Oh the fun of figuring it all out, but at least I have it basically figured out now.
Now I can see why no one will tell you how to really go above 8000 with a straight forward answer. Either, they really do not know or they know and want to say there are way to many variables and they need to get paid. Then finally they know and do not want to say because it takes so much work and effort to get to that point it is not something they will give away. I can truly understand the last part now.
Now I am back to deciding on pistons and con rods. I am thinking of Wiseco pistons as it seems their off the shelf piston has the features that I am looking for with the correct dome cc to get the comp ratio higher. The custom ones did the same basic thing and only saved like 50 grams per piston at tripple the price. Con rods are now between R and R and crower so we will see on those.
I had the last two days off from work getting ready for Sebring and doing other things so I dove into the engine setup a bit more. I called a bunch of people, read a lot and learned a ton. This adventure was on valve springs and lifters, basically to rev high in an LSx. So there is a magic number of 8,000. You stay below that number and you are fine with off the shelf parts and stay with a cam that does not ramp up fast or have too much lift or duration. That is the easy world. Once you want to go above 8,000 it gets way more complicated in that you need to really know all of your items before even talking with someone. The good thing is that I think I have learned fast and now have what is needed to build the engine to rev to 9,000 if I want, yet I will set the rev limiter to like 8200-8500. So to put it this way, I am going to use different valves than I thought as I wanted some light weight valves, I will use more of a custom valve spring that are basically more NASCAR spec with really high seat and open pressure for the rpms. I might need to mill the head .05-.1 to get the correct spring height open and closed. I will need custom Ti retainers for the valves to match the springs and retainers. I have also decided to get the 799 heads to flow a lot better and be more in line with what I want with a full CNC port job. I will use the Jesel adjustable shaft mount rockers, but I just need to get some custom valve covers that are taller or a spacer that I can buy or make myself. Then some custom push rods with solid roller lifters. Oh the fun of figuring it all out, but at least I have it basically figured out now.
Now I can see why no one will tell you how to really go above 8000 with a straight forward answer. Either, they really do not know or they know and want to say there are way to many variables and they need to get paid. Then finally they know and do not want to say because it takes so much work and effort to get to that point it is not something they will give away. I can truly understand the last part now.
Now I am back to deciding on pistons and con rods. I am thinking of Wiseco pistons as it seems their off the shelf piston has the features that I am looking for with the correct dome cc to get the comp ratio higher. The custom ones did the same basic thing and only saved like 50 grams per piston at tripple the price. Con rods are now between R and R and crower so we will see on those.
Troy, good luck with this. My experience is admittedly limited although when forced, I learn fast. Going above 8K will take work and what you have above looks probably looks like a recipe for success but is going to be maintenance intensive and will take a few iterations to get working for a period of time.
Wish you luck in what you are doing (I am never one to put down enthusiasm) but I foresee a few teething issues before you get it running. Once it is running (if so), it will be one maintenance intensive motor.
Kevin (burned by a high rev-ing 8.5K+ purshrod motor that at one point was actually put together well)
Wish you luck in what you are doing (I am never one to put down enthusiasm) but I foresee a few teething issues before you get it running. Once it is running (if so), it will be one maintenance intensive motor.
Kevin (burned by a high rev-ing 8.5K+ purshrod motor that at one point was actually put together well)
what style valves are you considering- titanium?
